Keep It Light Enough to Travel

[Sparhawk]

BTW, Lindsay,

Well, gotta go. If you know of any short versions of the I Ching you think are good, I’d love to hear about them. Any other time-saving tips appreciated.

I Ching: Text and annotated translation; by Dajun, Liu; Lin Zhongjun; Fu Youde; Frank Lauran is a nice one. 140 pages chockfull with a bilingual translation and annotations. I love how the Judgement of 64 starts: "Unfaithfulness, Great success" No typo, there is an annotation for it... Mind you, it isn't one of Brad's favorites but it is in his bibliography.

As for time saving tips: how about not consulting the Yi?

L

 

[Sparhawk]

Ditto sex - foreplay's such a bore; quickies rule.

I wonder why I never noticed this before...

Perhaps because any intelligent lover you may have had would've kicked your butt if you try to pull something like that more than once??

As a parallel thought, cooking rules! That's natural Zen for the rest of us...

 

[ewald]

ewald, I love your site, (and love the energy exercises), and the instant, fingertip access to every hex. I have used it for a long time as a quick reference. BUt I dont throw the virtual coins...so it wasnt ME doing the hundred plus readings!

Glad you like my site.

I'm afraid I have to disappoint you - I'm going to remove the hexagram pages when I put my translation public. With the streamlined new consultation page, there shouldn't be a need for them for people who do readings. I intend to make my text available as a PDF or a book for a fee, and it doesn't seem like a good idea to have it all easily accessible for free.

 

[hilary]

Nice one, Lindsay

(Though you forgot to mention paired lines. Tut.)

I suppose what I'm really getting at is whether the reading makes any difference to anything. Sometimes going slower helps. Sometimes it's better to get the message quick and go do something.

 

[dobro p]

Bingo. Exactamente. Precisely.

 

[lindsay]

Bingo? Exactamente? "Sometimes going slower helps. Sometimes it's better to get the message quick and go do something." Didn't Ecclesiastes say something like that a couple of thousand years ago? "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven..." Who's going to argue with that? Who's going to say what it means? "Anything goes" is my reading. And that sounds pretty good to me, too.

I'm just not a big fan of scholasticism. When interpreting the Yi starts to resemble an undergraduate paper on Symbolist poetry in the 19th century, then we have left the realm of pragmatic utilty behind. Cobbling together scraps of text in an endless kaleidoscope of alternate, possibly related meanings is a skill more related to playing Scrabble than to solving real problems. But some people can never seem to forget they were once the smartest kid in kindergarten.

Actually I am weary of it. I'm coming to the conclusion the Chinese may be right about the Yi after all. Imagine, who would have thought it could be true? The Yi is only partly a word game. The Chinese will tell you Shao Yong was the greatest master of the Yi who ever lived. He didn't spend a lot of time agonizing over loan characters.

Is there anybody out there interested in xiangshu? A person in that tradition could teach us a lot. IMHO.

Lindsay

 

[hilary]

OK, to put it the other way about. Sometimes searching out every last nuance becomes an excuse not to do anything. Sometimes scrabbling impatiently to get at the answer is a substitute for thought, and means getting no real answer at all.

The nature of the 'sometimes' seems too obvious to go into.

 

[Sparhawk]

I'm just not a big fan of scholasticism.

That certainly sounds like something I would say; coming from you, I don't know... It rings oxymoronic...

L

PS: I mean it as a compliment.

 

[bruce_g]

That certainly sounds like something I would say; coming from you, I don't know... It rings oxymoronic...

L

PS: I mean it as a compliment.

LOL, I agree. Polarity shift I guess.

There's also times when an intuitive needs bricks to give structure to their ideas. So, the intuitive gets structure and the intellectual gets magic. Seems a fair trade off.

 

[Trojina]

Sometimes I get confused to know where you are coming from Lindsay. That could well be because sometimes you take one stance and another time a different one, thats your prerogative but I'm looking for consistency and getting lost.

What I mean is on a recent thread you said there were people here who despised academic approach and I had the impression you were somewhat wearied of these people. You argued something like the academic was more likley to have developed the Yi than the tranced toad eating shaman. Your writing as always very entertaining and witty but just beneath a slight whiff of anger. I thought I knew what you meant - to my mind you meant a kind of suppression/denial of the intellectual faculties (by some) as being somehow inimical to 'spirituality'.

Yet on this thread you are coming from the opposite angle to say you are weary of scholasticism. I love this line : When interpreting the Yi starts to resemble an undergraduate paper on symbolist poetry in the 19th century then we have left the realm of practical utility behind Yup thats a pretty accurate description of the way things are going sometimes. I think I know what you are meaning hmmm.

But I'm confused on who/what position you are angered with and I can clearly see anger beneath the humour even if all else are in denial.

Well I'm not asking you to explain yourself, just saying

Well i always enjoy your posts anyway even if i don't get where you're coming from.

Regards to the cat.

 

[bruce_g]

Trojan,

I know what you mean. I like that trait though, to see both sides of something, each from a radical perspective. He often echoes my own sentiments, from the diametrically opposite side. He makes me think.

And me thinks Lindsay likes to tease, in a taunting way.

 

[Sparhawk]

Trojan,

I know what you mean. I like that trait though, to see both sides of something, each from a radical perspective. He often echoes my own sentiments, from the diametrically opposite side. He makes me think.

And me thinks Lindsay likes to tease, in a taunting way.

Yup, that's the Lindsay we all love. We are on to you, hear me?

 

[Trojina]

The thing is with Lindsay is I find I agree with whatever he is saying - and then I experience internal dissonance as I realise he is stating both sides of something - and I'm agreeing with both. (BTW his cat just PMd me to say Lindsay had intense internal dissonance and it was hell to live with)

 

[lindsay]

Look, I'm sorry if I seem a tad negative. Nobody specific is my target here. Certainly not Hilary, for whom I have the greatest respect and admiration, and whose hospitality makes it possible for me even to say my bit at all. Thank you, Hilary. But somehow it always comes down to words, words, words. Where do all these words come from? After a while you begin to suspect the Yi means everything and anything, depending on who's talking. It is hard to have confidence in one's own interpretations. Everything feels mushy and plastic.

Which would be OK if we did not turn to the Yi for resolving our doubts. Instead our practice is to multiply them. We ask for advice, but apparently the Yi uses the same words to imply conflicting notions to different people. We seek comfort, and only find uncertainty and contention. Each of us can say our interpretation is the correct one - but we don't go to the Yi only to find what we already think we know, do we? Isn't the Yi about something? Doen't it exist in its own right?

The problem with relying on the text alone (even with a little lip service to structural elements like trigrams or nuclear hexagrams) is there is no skeleton, no underlying ironwork on which to hang our interpretations. All we have are our individual opinions. Our Western practice resembles those inflatable buildings that only stand erect as long as we pump air into them.

The Chinese do not have this problem. To them, the Yi rests on the solid foundation of tradition, dogma, and commonly accepted theory. There is lively debate, and many schools of thought exist, but everybody is more or less on the same page. Even the nay-sayers are quite clear about what they object to. All this we choose to reject. Our Yi stands by itself, without the traditional framework that supports it in its home culture. Our Yi resembles having a racing yacht in the middle of the Sahara.

The world is in a state of flux, and none of this would matter very much if the traditional Yi did not possess great powers our version so obviously lacks. Our Yi is weak because we do not know how to use it. We never bothered to learn. Or at least this seems like a credible hypothesis based on years of observation, watching practitioners fumble around trying to make sense of it, hardly doing better ourselves.

One of the principle powers of the traditional Yi is prediction. This is a subject we are embarrassed even to talk about - but the Chinese have a long history of using the Yi to see into the future. For them, prediction is a science.

I estimate about 50% of my questions to the Yi are questions about the future. But my efforts at prediction are pathetic, being limited to text-based interpretation and elementary structural considerations. No Western authority is much help, because fundamentally most of them do not believe in the Yi's power to predict. These are the same people who make elaborate plans based on long-range weather forecasts or the advice of their stockbroker. If you believe the Yi is humbug from the start, you'll never learn anything.

How many times have people on this forum thrown up their hands in despair at being asked yes/no questions or questions about specific timing? Do you think the traditional Yi is that anemic? Well, it isn't. Why do you suppose theories based on the Yi defeated Western science in China until Western military power and technology made resistance futile? Some people equate technology with science, but that is a misconception.

Maybe you are happy with the way things are. Why should anything change? I have nothing to offer right now, except the increasing realization we may have missed something very big and powerful by putting all our eggs in the Zhouyi basket. The Chinese see that period as the birth only, not the maturity of the Yi. Why do we seek out the baby and shun the full-grown woman?

Lindsay

 

[jesed]

Hi Lindsay

I'm with you in this one

About practical prediction... yes the image/number aproach is more accurate.

Best wishes

 

[bruce_g]

Lindsay,

I think I could understand your frustration, but from a different perspective. What I like most about the Yi is that it doesn’t give me absolutes. If it did, I’d have been long gone from it.

I think what you refer to in ‘Chinese not having to wrestle with these problems of uncertainty’ is only a partial truth. There are always those to whom a “mysterious work” must become institutionalized before they can embrace it. That’s basically what a religion does. And that has it’s own benefits. To others, it is the mystery itself which lights their fire. I can’t imagine this was any different 3,500 years ago than it is today. And even if it was, what does that have to do with me, here, now? Yes, the handle of the ting has been altered, and some of the juice has run onto the old prince’s garments. Why cry over spilled pheasant fat? We live here, now. What can Yi do for us? That’s what matters to me.

Maybe we have indeed lost something important in our understanding of the Yi. Maybe we have gained something else in its place. Every ancient idea must be updated to include everything which has been learned since. Otherwise it’s just another dusty old tradition, pathetically mimed by bald headed religious nerds handing out Hari Krishna pamphlets at airports.

 

[willowfox]

"One of the principle powers of the traditional Yi is prediction. This is a subject we are embarrassed even to talk about - but the Chinese have a long history of using the Yi to see into the future. For them, prediction is a science".

Prediction is an important part of life to the Asian folks. Only the modern Western people seem to have a problem with prediction. Back in the old days making predictions was okay in Europe but now this seems to be taboo in the modern west. Superstitious nonsense, not possible to know the future; how things have changed since William Lilly, Nostradamus etc, etc.

"How many times have people on this forum thrown up their hands in despair at being asked yes/no questions or questions about specific timing? Do you think the traditional Yi is that anemic? Well, it isn't".

Quite right. Western people seem to think that the I Ching cannot be used for yes/no, timing, non personal questions, why? The Asian folk have no such problems, they ask about anything and everything. And their questions are always answered.

"Our Yi is weak because we do not know how to use it. We never bothered to learn. Or at least this seems like a credible hypothesis based on years of observation, watching practitioners fumble around trying to make sense of it, hardly doing better ourselves".

Western people seem to be blinkered in the use of the I Ching, whereas Asian folk are not. A case of too many generals and not enough soldiers.

 

[dobro p]

Hey Lindsay - sometimes you want a quick fix, but sometimes shortcuts and instant gratification just won't quite cut it. To everything there is a season. Know what I mean? lol

Look, I'm sorry if I seem a tad negative. Nobody specific is my target here. Certainly not Hilary, for whom I have the greatest respect and admiration, and whose hospitality makes it possible for me even to say my bit at all. Thank you, Hilary. But somehow it always comes down to words, words, words. Where do all these words come from? After a while you begin to suspect the Yi means everything and anything, depending on who's talking. It is hard to have confidence in one's own interpretations. Everything feels mushy and plastic.

Which would be OK if we did not turn to the Yi for resolving our doubts. Instead our practice is to multiply them. We ask for advice, but apparently the Yi uses the same words to imply conflicting notions to different people. We seek comfort, and only find uncertainty and contention. Each of us can say our interpretation is the correct one - but we don't go to the Yi only to find what we already think we know, do we? Isn't the Yi about something? Doen't it exist in its own right?

The problem with relying on the text alone (even with a little lip service to structural elements like trigrams or nuclear hexagrams) is there is no skeleton, no underlying ironwork on which to hang our interpretations. All we have are our individual opinions. Our Western practice resembles those inflatable buildings that only stand erect as long as we pump air into them.

The Chinese do not have this problem. To them, the Yi rests on the solid foundation of tradition, dogma, and commonly accepted theory. There is lively debate, and many schools of thought exist, but everybody is more or less on the same page. Even the nay-sayers are quite clear about what they object to. All this we choose to reject. Our Yi stands by itself, without the traditional framework that supports it in its home culture. Our Yi resembles having a racing yacht in the middle of the Sahara.

The world is in a state of flux, and none of this would matter very much if the traditional Yi did not possess great powers our version so obviously lacks. Our Yi is weak because we do not know how to use it. We never bothered to learn. Or at least this seems like a credible hypothesis based on years of observation, watching practitioners fumble around trying to make sense of it, hardly doing better ourselves.

One of the principle powers of the traditional Yi is prediction. This is a subject we are embarrassed even to talk about - but the Chinese have a long history of using the Yi to see into the future. For them, prediction is a science.

I estimate about 50% of my questions to the Yi are questions about the future. But my efforts at prediction are pathetic, being limited to text-based interpretation and elementary structural considerations. No Western authority is much help, because fundamentally most of them do not believe in the Yi's power to predict. These are the same people who make elaborate plans based on long-range weather forecasts or the advice of their stockbroker. If you believe the Yi is humbug from the start, you'll never learn anything.

How many times have people on this forum thrown up their hands in despair at being asked yes/no questions or questions about specific timing? Do you think the traditional Yi is that anemic? Well, it isn't. Why do you suppose theories based on the Yi defeated Western science in China until Western military power and technology made resistance futile? Some people equate technology with science, but that is a misconception.

Maybe you are happy with the way things are. Why should anything change? I have nothing to offer right now, except the increasing realization we may have missed something very big and powerful by putting all our eggs in the Zhouyi basket. The Chinese see that period as the birth only, not the maturity of the Yi. Why do we seek out the baby and shun the full-grown woman?

Lindsay

 

[dobro p]

Ahem. More seriously, perhaps.

"Which would be OK if we did not turn to the Yi for resolving our doubts. Instead our practice is to multiply them."

Sometimes my doubts are multiplied, more often not.

"We ask for advice, but apparently the Yi uses the same words to imply conflicting notions to different people."

Sure, that's the beauty of it. But the main thing I care about is if it makes sense to *me* when I consult it. Other people can take care of their own consultations - that's their business, not mine. Let them come up with their own interpretations. And when I offer my interpretations here for somebody else, I'm basically just trying to jumpstart their own understanding.

"We seek comfort, and only find uncertainty and contention."

You're not describing my experience with the Yi. Not even coming close. But maybe you're being autobiographical? If so, then I can understand why you're feeling pissed.

"Each of us can say our interpretation is the correct one - but we don't go to the Yi only to find what we already think we know, do we?"

Mmm... I think we do, actually. I think the Yi helps us to see things that our surface mind clouds over with all its personality bullshit. If you could just be quiet enough, you'd be clear and loving enough to see the answers to your questions without any help from an oracle or anyone else.

"Isn't the Yi about something? Doen't it exist in its own right?"

Of course it exists in its own right. But it isn't 'about' something. It's an oracle, and an oracle is an instrument which allows us to see some of the non-evident patterns and features of our reality. It's a tool, not a story.

"The problem with relying on the text alone (even with a little lip service to structural elements like trigrams or nuclear hexagrams) is there is no skeleton, no underlying ironwork on which to hang our interpretations."

You serious? The text is the 'underlying ironwork on which to hang our interpretations'. What do you think the text is for?

"All we have are our individual opinions."

Nah. We also have commentaries of others, and we have our own experience based on numerous consultations, and we have each other on this board. Way more than just individual opinion. It's true that any jerk can come up with any opinion, but a *lot* of the people on this board can offer really useful interpretations based on their knowledge of the text and their considerable experience using the oracle.

"The Chinese do not have this problem."

I don't believe it. But if you do, then you should use the Yi the same way the Chinese do.

"To them, the Yi rests on the solid foundation of tradition, dogma, and commonly accepted theory. There is lively debate, and many schools of thought exist, but everybody is more or less on the same page."

I have no idea what Yi studies are like in China. But even if they more or less agree with each other, it doesn't mean they're right. Or maybe their approach works for them, I dunno. But does it work for you? That's what counts.

"Our Yi resembles having a racing yacht in the middle of the Sahara."

No, not for me. The Chinese Yi is a hugely flexible thing. My English Yi is a smaller, more defined thing, but still useful for triggering associations in my mind when I ask a question.

You know, I want to tell you that I've experienced a lot of frustration using it sometimes too. But the lack of understanding is always cuz of me, cuz of my own lack of ability to come up with anything in relation to what the Yi's saying. And it still happens that sometimes I just draw blank when I consult - sometimes I just don't know what it's talking about. But these days that just produces mild disappointment in me, cuz I know the fault is with me. Most times I get something useful from a consultation.

 

[lindsay]

Thanks, Dobro, for your thoughtful reply. You are right: I am frustrated by the whole I Ching experience as characterized on this board. I've been around here so long I don't know anything else. It's just not good enough. Maybe I'll come back when I find something better. Or maybe I'll take Luis's advice, and give the whole thing up.

Lindsay

 

[bruce_g]

Well, Lindsay, if you do head on down the road, remember that there are some here who care about you. You’ve always been one of my personal favorites to read.

Fwiw, I used to feel more in tune with the rest here, as though a single body were working. I’ve long since “lost that lovin’ feeling” of a congregation, all in one accord and all that good stuff. But it doesn’t bother me anymore. Now it’s more like “to each their own”. And that’s fine. “God bless the child that’s got his own.”

 

[Sparhawk]

Thanks, Dobro, for your thoughtful reply. You are right: I am frustrated by the whole I Ching experience as characterized on this board. I've been arou nd here so long I don't know anything else. It's just not good enough. Maybe I'll come back when I find something better. Or maybe I'll take Luis's advice, and give the whole thing up.

Lindsay

Lindsay, I don't know what your hobbies are but when I get tired of all the "relationship" threads on this forum (which seem to be the bulk of it -- sorry ladies and some gents...) I take a sabbatical and immerse myself in my photography. I find a lot of Zen like states there. However, even though I barely consult it, the Yi is a constant presence in my life.

As for frustrations, etc., sorry to point to this very ridiculous obvious fact: The Yi isn't Online Clarity nor is represented by its members

L

 

[hilary]

What he said. Also, what happens when it's just you and Yi, or when it's you, diviner and Yi, is not the same as what happens when a group gets together to share ideas on a reading.

 

[Trojina]

I estimate about 50% of my questions to the Yi are questions about the future. But my efforts at prediction are pathetic, being limited to text-based interpretation and elementary structural considerations.

Lindsay

I don't understand about being limited to text based interpretations ? I mean aren't all interpretations going to end up being a text ? To be useful aren't all structural considerations going to end up as texts ?

 

[stevev]

Well I agree ...

and disagree, with either one opinion or the other, so I asked about them all.

10. Conduct

"The sage draws lines between the stars and he tells his people encouraging stories, trying to give them just the right measure of confidence to advance at the perfect pace, helping them face the night unafraid, upgrading each comprehension one small step at a time, steadying the human will."

Hey that ain't text, it's milk !
​

 

[lindsay]

Sniffle, sniffle. I did not expect this. Some of you guys I count as real kindred souls, and most of the rest of you I have found to be kind and helpful. It’s not your fault I can’t see straight anymore.

I am soo-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o frustrated with the Yi right now I could rip off the front cover (riiiip!) and tear off the back cover (riiiiiip!) and start in on the hexagrams one by one (riiip, riiip, riiiiip) – there goes hex 23, hex 57, and the Dazhuan! I could kick it into a corner and jump up and down on it. Up, down, up, down, up. Ah, I feel better already!

Can we talk about one more thing? Unemotionally, responsibly, like the mature fair-minded adults?

Listen to this – this was written by a Chinese tai chi master over 25 years ago about using the Yi:

“A prediction can be made about anything, from the weather to the future of a nation. The inquiry can be in the form of a yes or no or a general question. Once the question has been asked, a number aspect of the question or situation is used to construct the formulas. Thus the predictive hexagram is derived from the subject of the prediction. Number aspects of the subject are used to construct the upper and lower trigrams of the hexagram that will contain the prediction.

“For example, with the Early Heaven Formula the upper trigram is determined by something observed by the foreteller. The lower trigram is determined by the time at which the prediction is being made. Therefore, the predictive hexagram arises naturally out of the conditions (time plus the thing observed) prevailing at the moment of prediction.

“The moving or changing line of the predictive hexagram is also calculated with numbers determined by an aspect of the predictive situation. Both formulas produce one and only one moving line, which in turn creates only one new hexagram.

“At this point, the foreteller has already found and analyzed the symbolic components of the prediction. The interpretation can then be made directly from a reading of the attributes of the trigrams and the action pattern of the five elements within the hexagrams. The Early Heaven Formula uses these exclusively to interpret the prediction. The Later Heaven Formula relates these aspects of the prediction to the text of the I Ching.”
-- Da Liu, “I Ching Numerology,” p. xii.

This is an authentic Chinese voice. Why can’t we do this too? When someone asks, “Does my girlfriend love me?” - a yes or no question where “sort of” = no – why can’t we give them an answer? Yes! No! When someone asks, “When is a good time to take a trip?” – why can’t we just say “June 2008”?

In short, what is wrong with prediction? The method and means are at hand. Chinese diviners have been doing this for thousands of years. Not exactly a new-fangled idea. Why don’t we learn to use it?

The worst that can happen is we are wrong, our prediction turns out to be incorrect. So what? We freely give advice now that is just as risky. (Why does the Yi always sound like a middle-class white person on this forum?) When we “interpret” the Yi by using our best lit-crit, Po-Mo methods, no matter what we say, we are going out on a limb. A limb that can break at any moment. Why not use systems developed for this purpose? Intuition, you say? Well, the Chinese say intuition is developed inside the system. This is also the spirit of Zen practice. Discipline first, crazy talk later.

What is the problem with prediction, anyway?

Lindsay

 

[bruce_g]

I am soo-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o frustrated with the Yi right now I could rip off the front cover (riiiip!) and tear off the back cover (riiiiiip!) and start in on the hexagrams one by one (riiip, riiip, riiiiip) – there goes hex 23, hex 57, and the Dazhuan! I could kick it into a corner and jump up and down on it. Up, down, up, down, up. Ah, I feel better already!

That's actually what I did to my first copy of Wilhelm, and with the same temperament as you describe, and I think for the same reason too. I wanted something concrete, not just nebulous, philosophical blathering. So I got religion. Then, 20 years later I wound up ripping that to shreds too.

What is the problem with prediction, anyway?

Nothing. Most all questions and answers pertain to the future in some way or another. As for predicting outcomes in the future, the Yi provides contingencies: If you do this, this happens, if you do that, that happens. Though I'm still a wee skeptical of predicting the future without these contingencies, I don't discount them entirely in every case. There appears to be certain methods to calculate these things, which I know little about.

It's not that yes/no questions can't be addressed by the Yi, it's just that there's nearly always more to the story than yes or no. More contingencies.

 

[lightofreason]

Lindsay,

you are suffering from 10th century BC illness - the limitations and falsehoods derived from ignorance of our nature 'as is' lead to 'as interpreted' perspectives at odds with the 'big picture' or the 'small one' for that matter.

I dont know if the Emotional IC can help you - it is 'vague' but it may identify what your emotions interpret is going on and its methodology is more '21st century AD' ;-)

The direct link (no preamble) is http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/icplusEProact.html

Chris.

 

[martin]

The emotional IC!
Dass hat uns gerade noch gefehlt! Solo eso faltaba!

 

[bruce_g]

Lindsay, I find my concrete-ness not in the Yijing but on my early morning walks. Up the hill, the sun rising to my right, the moon setting to my left. Returning – the sun to my left, the moon to my right, and always my feet solidly grounded.