Kuei Ts'ang and Fu Shi

[lienshan]

His speculations were good but not definitive.

Hi lightofreason

That's just why I prefer C.G. Jung. He did not try to put everything into one system, because he was clever enough
to know, that there are no such system and will never be such a system. His main interest was the unconciosness.
That's too my main interest and that's why I deal with readings of the Book of Changes.

But I'm too interested in the pre-history of I Ching. I think, that it sharpens my mind to reconstruct the legendary Yarrowstalk Oracle. Others prefer to search for the correct translations of the I Ching texts. Some like the mother, others prefer the daughter

Jacques

PS. Here is an examble of what turns me on:

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/books/rutt.htm

My first thought was: hexagram 59 above is turned upside down? I've skeptical eyes My next thought was: Something is wrong with the numbers of the hexagrams below? No 2-3-4 numbers? From my knowledge of the backwards-moving numbers I know, that the ancient numbers were from 2 to 9, so the 1's are maybe misunderstood by the authors? I would name the 5 hexagrams Zhouyi no. 12.1.2.3.5 Zhouyi no. 46.1.5.6. Zhouyi no. 63.1 Zhouyi no. 59.1.4 Zhouyi 53.1.4.

 

[lightofreason]

Hi lightofreason

That's just why I prefer C.G. Jung. He did not try to put everything into one system, because he was clever enough
to know, that there are no such system and will never be such a system. His main interest was the unconciosness.
That's too my main interest and that's why I deal with readings of the Book of Changes.

Jung did not have access to the neuroscience data we have these days and so had to work at the level of expression and so a plethora of differences - his focus on symbols etc covers this where behind unique symbols is the sameness of the neurology that seeds meaning.

As such, Jung focuses on 'small world' networks, local context, ad-hoc, symbolisms that have links to the generic FEELINGS of meaning. The IDM work covers that template level and so brings out the "Language of the Vague" that is then customised, symbolised locally.

Jung's work is of interest but behind all of the words are core qualities associated with our species-nature and THEY are feelings of wholeness, partness etc etc etc. The unconscious is also covered in that we can communicate with it through use of projection in the form of hexagrams derived from asking the unconscious about emotions. See the emotional I Ching material:

program:
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/icplusEProact.html

What this can do is bypass consciousness, the agent of mediation, and that includes repression of 'taboo' expressions. This methodology comes out of the IDM material and ITS application to analysis of what the I Ching is about.

IDM - http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introIDM.html

Thus, given current work in neurosciences allows us to make some assumptions about 'in here' and how that is translated and expressed in local contexts 'out there'.

But I'm too interested in the pre-history of I Ching. I think, that it sharpens my mind to reconstruct the legendary Yarrowstalk Oracle. Others prefer to search for the correct translations of the I Ching texts. Some like the mother, others prefer the daughter

Thats okay - these are all attractions to local contexts, small world networks, all of interest and all seemingly 'different' but the IDM work brings out the sameness and so 'universal' form of the I Ching and so identfies the "Language of the Vague".


PS. Here is an examble of what turns me on:

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/books/rutt.htm

My first thought was: hexagram 59 above is turned upside down? I've skeptical eyes My next thought was: Something is wrong with the numbers of the hexagrams below? No 2-3-4 numbers? From my knowledge of the backwards-moving numbers I know, that the ancient numbers were from 2 to 9, so the 1's are maybe misunderstood by the authors? I would name the 5 hexagrams Zhouyi no. 12.1.2.3.5 Zhouyi no. 46.1.5.6. Zhouyi no. 63.1 Zhouyi no. 59.1.4 Zhouyi 53.1.4.[/QUOTE]

The early development of numeric representation of CYCLES cannot start with '1' since cycles immediately indicate repetition and so no less than a pair of numbers, and so '2' etc. The cycle interpreted as being 'eternally so' and thus never reducable to '1'!

With the refinement of numbers so came the formal definitions of 'number line', X,Y,Z axis etc and a focus on symmetry. Extending mathematics then took us into the asymmetric and so complex number forms of representations, scalars gave way to vectors etc.

Since self-referencing starts with a seemingly symmetric perspective, and so covers notions of 'all is connected' etc (a perspective favouring integration over differentiation) it does not develop an asymmetric perspective until well developed.

It is like the symmetry of trigrams vs the emerging asymmetry of hexagrams that we can 'fold back' to seeing the asymmetry in trigrams.

All of this gets into issues with logic etc in that our species-nature brain is focused on the use of instincts/habits and metaphor and so a dominating symmetric perspective that THEN needs breaking to bring out the asymmetric.

Primitive mindsets will reflect an attraction to symmetry (and Jung brought this out in his work on symbols etc). The more 'advanced' mindsets move towards the asymmetric and 'unique' consciousness etc (existentialism comes to mind, as does Buddhism).

As such, there will be a 'transition' point and that will allow for some of the 'old' to get mixed with the 'new' - although that depends on the types of negation used - analytical (born again, start again) or dialectical (keep the good bits of the old).

Chris.

 

[lienshan]

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/maths.html

................what............... | ................where............... | (T1)
....what....... | .....where.... | .....what...... | .....where..... | (T2) fig. 1
what | where | what | where | what | where | what | where | (T3)

::I :I: :II III II: I:I I:: / 000 001 010 011 111 110 101 100 / what = :/ 0 and where = I/ 1

::I :I: :II III II: I:I I:: / what = : waxing moon / where = I waning moon (left side of moon is either broken : or whole I)

Hi lightofreason

I found the sceme (fig.1) in your site and reversed it to show You the counting method of trigrams

The top line is either : value 0 or I value 1
The middle line is either equal to the topline = value 0 or different from the topline = value 4
The bottom line is either equal to the topline = value 0 or different from the topline = value 2

0 ::I 2 :I: 4 :II 6 III 1 II: 3 I:I 5 I:: 7 (moon order)

Here is the original Fu Shi order of the trigrams counted this way:

0 ::I 2 I:I 3 :II 6 III 1 II: 3 :I: 4 I:: 7

Here is the king Wen order of the trigrams counted this way:

0 :II 6 III 1 :I: 4 I:: 7 ::I 2 II: 3 I:I 5

If You instead of counting by the topline count by the bottom line it looks like this:

0 ::I 7 :I: 4 :II 3 III 1 II: 6 I:I 5 I:: 2 (moon order of the trigrams)

0 ::I 7 I:I 5 :II 3 III 1 II: 6 :I: 4 I:: 2 (Fu Shi order of the trigrams)

0 :II 3 III 1 :I: 4 I:: 2 ::I 7 II: 6 I:I 5 (Wen order of the trigrams)

I find it interesting, that the Fu Shi order is in "math order" when counted from bottom

Jacques

 

[getojack]

PS. Here is an examble of what turns me on:

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/books/rutt.htm

My first thought was: hexagram 59 above is turned upside down? I've skeptical eyes My next thought was: Something is wrong with the numbers of the hexagrams below? No 2-3-4 numbers? From my knowledge of the backwards-moving numbers I know, that the ancient numbers were from 2 to 9, so the 1's are maybe misunderstood by the authors? I would name the 5 hexagrams Zhouyi no. 12.1.2.3.5 Zhouyi no. 46.1.5.6. Zhouyi no. 63.1 Zhouyi no. 59.1.4 Zhouyi 53.1.4.

Seems they used the numbers 1, 5, 6, 7, and 8. Now how you get those numbers from turtles is anyone's guess.

Look at the numbers they used and you'll see there are two even/yin numbers (6 and 8) and three yang numbers (1, 5, and 7). That's where the 2 Earth and 3 Heaven come in.

Now look at the Chinese characters for the numbers from 1 to 9 and you might see why they picked those particular numbers... 1, 5, and 7 are whole/yang/odd, while 6 and 8 are broken/yin/even.

 

[lienshan]

Seems they used the numbers 1, 5, 6, 7, and 8. Now how you get those numbers from turtles is anyone's guess.

The two Zhou bones have five socalled 1's but no 7's
The three Chang bones have one socalled 1's but six 7's

This statistic material is limited but indicate, that the socalled 1's are maybe simplified 7's?

To me it looks like the inscriptions are not only even and odd but too steady and changing lines?
Maybe I'm wrong, but when I look at more inscriptions:

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/books/bagua.htm

It looks like the original text of The Book of Changes is written on oracle bones

 

[lightofreason]

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/maths.html
........

If You instead of counting by the topline count by the bottom line it looks like this:

0 ::I 7 :I: 4 :II 3 III 1 II: 6 I:I 5 I:: 2 (moon order of the trigrams)

0 ::I 7 I:I 5 :II 3 III 1 II: 6 :I: 4 I:: 2 (Fu Shi order of the trigrams)

0 :II 3 III 1 :I: 4 I:: 2 ::I 7 II: 6 I:I 5 (Wen order of the trigrams)

I find it interesting, that the Fu Shi order is in "math order" when counted from bottom

Jacques

If you want to focus on rotations then consider the horizontal/vertical relationships here:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icmatrix.html

The horizontal sequences present 'logic of relationships' representations. By that I mean that given the pole hexagrams in each sequence, the sequences communicate relationships of all other hexagrams in the sequence.

For example, in the natural binary sequence for hexagram PAIRS A is to B as 01 is to 02. The derivation of the other horizontal sequences brings out the other relationships (as in A is to B as 23 is to 43 etc etc)

The VERTICAL sequences cover applying recursion 'up' a hexagram and so the XOR/changing-line patterns.

Given the use of the 'natural' horizontal to derive the vertical, we can use all verticals to derive horizontals.

Chris.

 

[getojack]

The two Zhou bones have five socalled 1's but no 7's
The three Chang bones have one socalled 1's but six 7's

This statistic material is limited but indicate, that the socalled 1's are maybe simplified 7's?

If you combine the 1's and 7's then you're left with 2 yin and 2 yang numbers, as in the modern coin method of divination. It's clear from the writings, however that there were originally 2 yin (Earth) numbers and 3 yang (Heaven) numbers, so they must have used 1, 5, 6, 7 and 8 as I said earlier.

Look at the modern characters for one... (一) and seven (七) and you should be able to see their ancient counterparts in the oracle bone inscriptions.

To me it looks like the inscriptions are not only even and odd but too steady and changing lines?

I agree that there were changing lines, but it looks to me like they were the sideways 5's (old yang?) as in 63.1, and upside-down 6's (old yin?) as in 59.1.4 in the rutt.htm link you provided. They would have had fewer hexagrams with changing lines since only 2 out of 5 possible numbers could change, as opposed to 2 out of 4 (6 and 9) in the coin method.

 

[lienshan]

Hi lightofreason and getojack

I'm using yarrowstalks and what confuses me is, that I simply can't think of a divination method of yarrowstalks,
that produce only 1 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 and no 2 - 3 - 4 - 9 ???

That's the problem! The scolars compare the signs but do not consider how the signs are made, because they do not
use yarrowstalks themselves. That's why I think, that us practicing divination look at the signs with other eyes and
might see, what they can't see?

Jacques

 

[getojack]

Before stalks to separate, there were bones and tortoise shells to crack.

 

[lienshan]

David N. Keightley :

"It should also be noted that the Shang diviners occasionally made use of piles of six numbers that presumably recorded the results of manipulating bamboo strips, milfoil stalks, or other rod-like objects that could be counted. These functioned as a form of pre-pyromanic divination and were presumably ancestral to the hexagrams of the Zhouyi"

The Shang kings and the royal diviners used pyromancy, but ordinary diviners?

 

[getojack]

Wikipedia:

History of pyromancy

Due to the importance of fire in society from the earliest of times, it is quite likely that pyromancy was one of the earlier forms of divination. It is said that in Greek society, virgins at the Temple of Athena in Athens regularly practiced pyromancy. It is also possible that followers of Hephaestus, the Greek god of fire and the forge, practiced pyromancy. In ancient China, pyromancy was practiced in the Neolithic period and Shāng and Zhōu dynasties in the form of burning or heating oracle bones -- usually the scapulae (shoulder blades) of oxen or turtle shells -- to produce cracks which were then read as portents. Insciptions on such oracle bones from the late Shāng dynasty are important, as the earliest significant corpus of written Chinese ever found.

 

[lienshan]

Hi getojack

The scolars can't explain exactly how the Chang diviners read the cracks and no one of them mention, that the cracks were symbolizing numbers, but ausspicious or inausspicious. The diviners read one crack to each question, as I understand the scolars explanations.

I still think: which divining method produces six numbers 1 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 but no 2 - 3 - 4 - 9 ???

 

[getojack]

I don't know... why don't you ask Rutt? Definitely looks like an early form of Chinese numerology that probably appeared with the earliest known form of Chinese writing to me. Perhaps the numbers were associated with the Five Elements.

 

[lienshan]

To me it looks like very early development of the hexagrams including changing lines? The 6's look like changing broken lines and 8's look like steady broken lines. The question is to explain the whole lines. Maybe the 1's are the sign Pa (crack) but horisontal? The "normal" oracle bone signs were written in different directions and each diviner had his style. This could explain some of the variations?

I haven't seen anything indicating the Five Elements in the Shang ideology. They worshipped Di and ancestors.

PS:

Inscribed on the oracle bones themselves are references to "cracks and bamboo-stalks sayings" and to milfoil. See Yiping (1980), pp 158-85.

From the tomb of one Zuoyin Tuo comes evidence of divination using first a turtleshell and second milfoil to produce a pair of hexagrams. See Baoshan p.34, strips 216-17; also Li Ling (1993).

Only a few sites so far include divination slips with the number 9 on them. To date no sites so far have yielded sets that include the numbers 2-3-4. Donald Harper suggests, that the numbers 2, 3 and 4 will never be found "for the simple reason that each of those numbers was written as a stack of single bars" so that it would ultimately be indistinguishable from the 1.

Oracle bone divinations were often clustered in groups of six, since the six ten-day "weeks" constituted one complete ritual cycle of sixty days, the period over which the prediction ruled.