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mercury

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I've been wondering about people's feelings about the various translations of the I Ching that are available...I've grown a little skittish about doing my own readings since hanging out here and I don't want my inexperience to result in misinterpreting the oracle.

I've noticed sometimes my own interpretations are markedly different from those of some of the learned folks in this community, to the point that I start to question my intelligence; I chalk some of it up to my own narrowness of focus, but I also wonder about differences between translations.

I have Wilhelm, Karcher's TOTAL I CHING, and Dening's EVERYDAY I CHING. I bounce between the three, comparing and contrasting, and there are subtle differences I can see but I'm wondering if anyone with more experience has any opinions on which translations a novice should rely on most?
 

beithe

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hi

Hi mercury,
I, by no means, see myself as one with more experience but as an avid book buying junkie I can tell you the best steering I had was Hilary's bookshelve here at Clarity. I have Dening, the Ebook Hilary offers of Wilhelm, Huang, and Karcher's Total I ching. I was doing just what you have been doing...bouncing around between the different trans. I have decided to try and concentrate on using one (Karcher at this point) and simply reading through the others.

I think they all offer something valuable but I felt confused with so many voices in my head. I really like the Karcher trans. And I like the history in the Huang trans. Dening is very straight talking and analytical, really a very simple trans. for when you are in a hurry.

Somewhere, maybe here, someone said that it was useful to try to stick to one trans. and try to use that exclusively for a year. I don't know if I can do that but I am trying to stick to one for at least 3 months. I think you are better able to get the essence of that trans. and I know ,personally, I do not need to feel any more confused than I do.

Oh The Book of the Moon, LiSe's site is wonderful and has alot of good information too.

Hope this helps.
beithe
 

mercury

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Thank you beithe! There's so much more to readings than I realized that my head is spinning a bit; in particular, I think I've come to appreciate the amount of time you need to devote to a reading in order to reach a more complete understanding of what's involved. Sometimes I look for a quick answer, and that's not always the case.
 

dobro p

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Two things. First, Karcher's Total I Ching and Wilhelm are really pretty different. Karcher takes a different approach completely - his approach is mythological, whereas Wilhelm is poetic and represents the tradition of Confucian commentary.

Second, I used Wilhelm for a lot of years until I figured out that his version, inspiring though it was, wasn't particularly accurate. It was at that point that I started working out my own version. It's easy enough to do; you don't need to know Chinese. You just compare what different translators do with each term in the Yi, and then you decide what you think each term means. Karcher worked with Rudolf Ritsema to produce a sort of I Ching Lexicon, which is a very useful starting point. I often start with that, and compare it with what Legge and Wilhelm and Shaughnessy say. If they all agree and it makes sense, I plump for that meaning. If there's a lot of disagreement, I go to other sources for more comparisons and then make my own mind up, sometimes after asking people on this site what they think.

The advantage of working out your own Yi is this: not only is it a WONDERFUL way of becoming clearer about the meanings of the hexagrams, but in the end you have a custom-built Yi that really serves you well.
 
L

lightofreason

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Since the I ching is derived from self-referencing of yin/yang so one can use the I ching to describe itself - something all of the translators/interpreters you mention did not know.

To do that requires understanding of something VERY simple - XORing.

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introXOR.html

The descriptions derived are GENERAL where YOU can refine the terms to fit your personal experiences.

Chris.
 

ewald

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I am somewhat on the same track as Dobro. I'm also working on my own translation of the Yi, out of frustration with existing translations. (But I have stopped relying on consistency between existing translations, as I think that for difficult text parts translators have a habit of copying from others, and consequently they copy each other's errors).

I also don't think that the Wilhelm translation is particularly accurate. From the translations that I have seen, I think Karcher's the most accurate, though he has a habit of offering various interpretations for particular Chinese characters, where in my view only a single one is correct.
 

frank_r

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mercury said:
I have Wilhelm, Karcher's TOTAL I CHING, and Dening's EVERYDAY I CHING. I bounce between the three, comparing and contrasting, and there are subtle differences I can see but I'm wondering if anyone with more experience has any opinions on which translations a novice should rely on most?

I also started with Wilhelm(who didn´t), I worked with this books for many, many years. Then I wanted to know a little bit more and bought other translations Karcher, Reifler, Alfred Huang and others.
And I started to compare, but I only did this after many years so I would say stick the first couple of years to the one you feel most close to.
Which is the one you feel you get a real answer, that is really connecting. That's the one who is good to work with for you.
 

miakoda

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I hope someday to begin working on my own Yi Jing, but I haven't got the time at this point, so I developed a kind of index of the translations that I own. Setting it up wasn't hard.

This is what I did: every time I would read I'd check all of my translations and then mark the ones that worked best in Karcher's "How To Use The I Ching" (it's light, easy to thumb through and gives accurate, but pared down interpretations). Now that it has been compiled, it's a quick, central place to check first. Then I go on to Total I Ching, Balkin, Wilhelm, etc. for an in-depth interpretation. When I get a new translation, I read it as well so if it's on the money I can incorporate it into my "How To" book. And when I don't get any of them, I go to the concordance and try to get closer to the Chinese.

Every translator seems to have their strong points. Total I Ching is very spiritual and Balkin is where I turn in dealing with business matters or difficult people (thank you Hilary for telling us about Balkin) and Wilhelm has some flashes of brilliance that I acknowledge. But all of them seem to have their blind spots (what's up with Total I Ching and 9.3?)

I think that this site is a brilliant way to check for accuracy, both in the Hexagram index and on the forum. Another way to check the accuracy of the interpretations is through transitional hexagrams. Almost always there's a strong correlation between the original hexagram's changing lines and the transitional's changing lines. The original hexagram's line often accurately explains the history or motivation for the transitional's line. When those don't jibe, it's a red flag that one or the other has been misinterpreted.

I hope though that you don't lose heart in the face of all of the people here who offer such insightful takes. I'm continually in awe of what they are capable of illuminating for questioners. As a collaboration, they are creating a kind of Wikipedia of the Yi Jing that is greater than what we should expect of ourselves as individuals. But in the end, I hope you honor most your reaction when you read the lines. Your instincts are a key to expanding your relationship with it. What happens when you open the lock?

Miakoda
 

heylise

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There is a big difference between translations and interpretations. Wilhelm, Balkin, Legge, and Ritsema-Karcher are translations. It is very useful to compare them, then you get an idea of the Chinese text. Ritsema-Karcher is a wonderful 'base' for that. It makes it possible to see in all the others what they do, and sometimes why.

Dening and also Karcher's Total I Ching are interpretations. Karcher did start out from a translation, the one he did together with Ritsema, but changed many things according to his own view. He made a 'mythical' I Ching. It can resonate with something inside which is beyond words. Or it resonates not at all. Depends on what you need.

So you can try to find yourself what Yi says, or you can rely on someone who found it for you, but it will be his view. The best way is what works best for you.

LiSe
 

mercury

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thanks so much everyone...still getting used to the idea that this is more about an interchange between myself and Yi than it is receiving commandments from on high.

LiSe, I've been exploring your site and really enjoying it. Thank you!
 

dobro p

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mercury said:
thanks so much everyone...still getting used to the idea that this is more about an interchange between myself and Yi than it is receiving commandments from on high.

How about this idea? You interact with the message which the Yi expresses for you, a message from that part of you which is 'on high'. And that part of you is what you really are, and the part of you that interacts with the message (expressed through the Yi) is the lesser part, the less real part. And you interact with it firstly as a way of getting to understand it better, and that when you really start to understand it, you understand that you don't need the message so much anymore because what you really are is THAT OUT OF WHICH THE MESSAGES ARISE.

Just a thought.
 

beithe

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heyLiSe said

There is a big difference between translations and interpretations.

I never really thought of it that way. And even though Dening definitely said "interpretation",to me, I didn't seem to categorize Karcher that way. And I am sure it says that somewhere on the cover, etc. but I never noticed. I do find that I am drawn into Karchers interpretation, and it mythic depths.

Something more I need to pay attention to...:eek:

But what works for you, what resonates with you, what brings the epiphany is the one that you use.

dobro
you understand that you don't need the message so much anymore because what you really are is THAT OUT OF WHICH THE MESSAGES ARISE.

Epiphany. The Big Aha. :D
 

mercury

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Epiphany indeed. I did a series of readings today that felt exactly like that. I thought I was in the zone, but I guess I AM the zone...
 

dobro p

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Hilary, can you get some teeshirts printed up that say 'I am the Zone' on the front and 'Clarity Ichinguerro' on the back?
 

beithe

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Hilary, can you get some teeshirts printed up that say 'I am the Zone' on the front and 'Clarity Ichinguerro' on the back?

:D please?????
 

mercury

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Well, actually, I think THIS is the zone...I'm so thankful I discovered this site and the people on this board at this time in my life. The amount of knowledge (and patience) here is humbling, and I know that it's making a difference in my life after only a few weeks of coming here.
 

beithe

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Ya. What mercury said.

Clarity is a good place with an unbelieveable amount of good people so willing to help. Feels like that old pair of jeans that you loved because they were so comfortable. Lifes best gifts are the ones that come as a surprise....when you didn't even know you needed them.
 

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