Clarity,
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Lienshan said:Sources? It's an Oracle that was a secret even to Confucius, so "normal" sources are very hard to find. It's a puzzle with a lot of missing links.
I use facts but look as a diviner at facts with other eyes than scientists:
The Wet and the Dry mentioned by Wilhelm give the 8 trigrams the following egyptian explanation:
Heaven = dry, shore, earth .................. Earth = wet, sea, water
Wind = dry, northern wind, rain below .... Thunder = wet, thunder, rain above
Fire = dry, fire, look floating inside ........ Water = wet, maybe air regarded as floating?
Mountain = dry, island, ground on water .. Lake = wet, lake, water on ground
I look at the Wet and the Dry like a visual Yin and Yang philosophy of eight elements.
Each element is a combination of broken lines (wet) and whole lines (dry) in a trigram.
My only problem is the meaning of the trigram Water, which is the dry inside the wet? The complementary Fire is
wet glowing ("floating lava") inside a dry fire and they are both in this visual philosophy defined as infinite space.
What element is dry inside wet?
Thus we have:
wholeness through differentiating - heaven (expansive blending)
wholeness through integrating - earth (contractive blending)
partness through differentiating - fire (expansive bounding)
partness through integrating - water (contractive bounding)
sharing of space through differentiating - lake (expansive bonding)
sharing of space through integrating - mountain (contractive bonding)
sharing of time through differentiating - thunder (expansive binding)
sharing of time through integrating - wind (contractive binding)
ANYTHING or ANY PROCESS is covered b the above and their composite forms.
Thats a very bold statement. Can you back it up?
getojack said:For example, is a banana integrating or differentiating? Whole or part?
getojack said:(maybe it depends on if it's a whole or sliced banana?) Sharing of space or time?
getojack said:Which hexagram covers banana-ness?
getojack said:If a monkey is eating a banana, I would think that would be sharing of time and space through integrating, correct?
getojack said:So a monkey eating a banana is covered by the mountain and wind trigrams, right?
getojack said:Unless it's a half-eaten banana... then it would be covered by partness through integrating... water trigram?
depends on context - as an object it is stand alone, differentiated and so more yang, a blend. As an extension of the tree in the form of fruit etc then we get into sharing of space (this covers the seeds within the banana and the overall focus on replication etc) - a bond.getojack said:And then the banana still on the tree must be covered the earth trigram?
[/quote]getojack said:And a falling banana... heaven trigram?
Hi Lightofreason
Your explanation is a modern explanation. I'm researching the ancient egypt explanation of a wet and dry philosophy as mentioned by Wilhelm. How did people define the Eight Forces 2300 BC. I'm trying to understand their way of thinking
lienshan said:and esspecially their defining of the Force Heh corresponding to trigram Water course me trouble?
What of eight elements could be the the dry inside the wet ( :I: ) ?
You all sound so brilliant intelligent knowing anything, so prove your skills to me by answering this tricky question?
What of eight elements could be the the dry inside the wet ( :I: ) ?
You all sound so brilliant intelligent knowing anything, so prove your skills to me by answering this tricky question?
Water is contractive bounding and so an enclosure that keeps things in (or out). Emotionally it is covered by the emotion of rejection etc and overall covers containment and control (Containment doubled). The 'dry' inside the wet reflects keeping the powder dry through containment as the containment reflects the boundary (sides) of flow.
lienshan said:What of eight elements could be the the dry inside the wet ( :I: ) ?
My only problem is the meaning of the trigram Water, which is the dry inside the wet? The complementary Fire is
wet glowing ("floating lava") inside a dry fire and they are both in this visual philosophy defined as infinite space.
What element is dry inside wet?
Your "Containment doubled" point at the center of the problem: The diviner/Wen too had problems defining "Water"
in hexagram 29.
Hi lightofreasonHow come all of this self-referencing? A basic -property of the containment of noise (at any scale) is the elicitation of order from self-referencing (gets into asymmetry/symmetry etc etc) - google "the chaos game".
Yes - he would have learnt a lot about what was behind what he was dealing with.Hi lightofreason
It comes from the Richard Wilhelm translation of I Ching. He wrote in his foreword, that the original words of Earth and Heaven were the Wet and the Dry. He wrote in his foreword, that the pre-I Ching oracle was named Lien Shan with Kua Mountain first.
Would You advice Richard Wilhelm to google "the chaos game"?
lienshan said:Why don't You look at the order of hexagrams in numerical order starting with Kua Mountain first? The basic numbers are Earth = two and Heaven = three. Exactly as described in Shuo Kua with backwards-moving numbers.
I:: 01/65 :IIIII 02/64 I:I 03/63 :IIII: 04/62 (+ 10 more Kua =>) I::III 15/51 :II 16/50
I:I 17/49 :I:III 18/48 I:I::I 19/47 :I:II: 20/46 (+ 10 more Kua =>) I:IIII 31/35 :I: 32/34
II: 33/33 ::IIII 34/32 III 35/31 ::III: 36/30 (+ 10 more Kua =>) II:III 47/19 ::I 48/18
III 49/17 III 50/16 III::I 51/15 II: 52/14 (+ 10 more Kua =>) IIIIII 63/03 64/02
Forewards colour counting: first (6th line) line is either broken = 2 or whole = 1
Lines 5-4-3-2-1 are 32-16-8-4-2 if equal to first line and 0 if different from first line.
Backwards shape counting: first (6th line) line is either broken = 2 or whole = 3
Lines 5-4-3-2-1 are 32-16-8-4-2 if different from first line and 0 if equal to first line.
ØØØ
OOO = :I:II: 20/46 (colour Water and shape Wind) example (colour = sun and shape = moon)
Ø .Ø
.....
How are the backward-moving numbers of I Ching explained in the hexagram order and matrix You are referring to?
Hi Lightofreason
.....
Due to tradition we use 50 yarrowstalks but remove 1 yarrowstalk. Why?
Lien Shan was a shamanic calendar and yarrowstalks were used to count phases of the moon. One year is 99 phases of the moon. First one count 50, remove 1, and then count 49. Every 19th year the counting is corrected by 1 yarrowstalk.
Lien Shan was too the tide calendar of the Xia shamans: A year was divided into 11 months of 64 tides.
The trigram above (colour) shows 8 different times of the day.
The trigram below (shape) shows 8 different phases of the moon.
Every year the tide calendar is corrected by 1 tide.
The inscriptions on Shang oracle bones show a similar calendar system with two names, but due to chinese tradition each dynasty had their own calendar system.
(2) As a sequence of time. Plum Blossom method seems to use this (one changing line) and calendar systems use it (with your system focusing on trigrams rather than lines).
The I Ching is a language and so applicable to ANYTHING - I can make calendars out of it etc etc but in doing so you limit the full expression of the IC as a PARALLEL system and so more than just a SERIAL system.
This is a specialist focus, a small world network focus. it is akin to mapping the 384 lines to the 13 month (384 days) calendar of the moon.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).