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lin4 and 28.4 (and 21.3)

dobro p

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Lin4 crops up a *lot* in the Yi - it's important. I've been translating it variously, but recently I've been opting for 'shame' in the sense of 'distressing inadequacy, distressing awareness of a less than adequate performance'. That meaning for lin4 works quite well, but if it's a good rendering, then how to read 28.4? When the ridgepole is high, that's fortunate, but having more means shame. Huh, how can having more than enough be 'distressing awareness of inadequacy'? Inadequacy is the wrong idea, right? It's more like the biblical sense of sin - 'missing the mark' - yes? Yes? lol
 

Sparhawk

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Lin4 crops up a *lot* in the Yi - it's important. I've been translating it variously, but recently I've been opting for 'shame' in the sense of 'distressing inadequacy, distressing awareness of a less than adequate performance'. That meaning for lin4 works quite well, but if it's a good rendering, then how to read 28.4? When the ridgepole is high, that's fortunate, but having more means shame. Huh, how can having more than enough be 'distressing awareness of inadequacy'? Inadequacy is the wrong idea, right? It's more like the biblical sense of sin - 'missing the mark' - yes? Yes? lol

IMO, perhaps concentrating on "shame," which is a correct meaning in other contexts, will fall off the mark in the case of 28.4. If you came to a meaning of "shame" then you are using some good dictionaries. However, in most dictionaries and even in Wieger's, the most accepted meaning for that character is "avarice" and "stinginess". Better dictionaries have more contextual meanings and one such contextual meaning is "deficiency". This is the meaning I would apply to this character in 28.4

L
 

magictortoise

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Dobro,

I think it is difficult to reduce a line to one meaning across the board, if indeed that is what you were intending to do. The line's meaning is colored by the context of the particular hexagram, its position and relation to corresponding lines. One must also consider whether the line is in a place that corresponds with its nature. The archetype is hexagram 63 where all lines are in places that accord with their nature. In the main hexagram 28 emphasizes overweighting of yang, but line four's firmness is modified by the yieldingness of the position.(Wilhelm's commentary on p. 528) Hence the augury of good fortune in a time of overweighting. (the fourth place is archetypally a yin place on the model of hexagram 63) But then look at the fourth place of hexagram 50. A different tone entirely.

I think the same goes for any line. Compare for example the sixth lines of hexagrams 1 & 14.

I hope I have properly understood your post.

Best regards,

Ken W.
 

ewald

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I have "inadequate" (or "inadequacy") in all instances of Lin4 (which are 3.3 - 4.1 - 4.4 - 11.6 - 13.2 - 18.4 - 20.1 - 21.3 - 22.5 - 28.4 - 31.3 - 32.3 - 35.6 - 37.3 - 40.3 - 44.6 - 45.3 - 47.4 - 57.3 - 64.1). "Deficiency" would be fitting in several instances as well.

What emotion someone has to the inadequacy is thus left to the person. It can be shame, humiliation, embarassment, guilt, anger, sadness, but also none of these, as one doesn't necessarily respond with an emotion to an inadequacy. Translating it with some particular emotion unnecessarily limits things - and makes the text less recognizable to the querant.
 

Sparhawk

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I think it is difficult to reduce a line to one meaning across the board, if indeed that is what you were intending to do.

I believe Dobro is interested in the translation of Lin4 as applied to 28.4, not in the interpretation of the line per se...

I like Ewald's "inadequacy" too, although I wouldn't use it across all the occurrences of Lin4.

L
 

bradford

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Lin4 crops up a *lot* in the Yi - it's important. I've been translating it variously, but recently I've been opting for 'shame' in the sense of 'distressing inadequacy, distressing awareness of a less than adequate performance'. That meaning for lin4 works quite well, but if it's a good rendering, then how to read 28.4? When the ridgepole is high, that's fortunate, but having more means shame. Huh, how can having more than enough be 'distressing awareness of inadequacy'? Inadequacy is the wrong idea, right? It's more like the biblical sense of sin - 'missing the mark' - yes? Yes? lol

Hi Dobro
You, the verb to be, precedes tuo. "were there more (superimposed load), (then it would be) a shame. (or inadequate)
 

dobro p

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I believe Dobro is interested in the translation of Lin4 as applied to 28.4, not in the interpretation of the line per se...

I like Ewald's "inadequacy" too, although I wouldn't use it across all the occurrences of Lin4.

L

Yeah, I'm primarily interested in how lin4 translates in 28.4, cuz 'distressing inadequacy' doesn't seem to fit making the mistake of putting more into a situation which has stabilized. But a discussion of *all* the uses of lin4 doesn't bother me at all, cuz it can help me understand it better overall.

That's why I was interested in people's response to 'missing the mark' (which as I understand it is a biblical meaning of 'sin'). 'Missing the mark' seems to be a rendering that would fit all the uses of lin4. No?
 

hilary

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...how to read 28.4? When the ridgepole is high, that's fortunate, but having more means shame. Huh, how can having more than enough be 'distressing awareness of inadequacy'?

If you load more onto the ridgepole, you might be suddenly and very distressingly aware of its inadequacy, especially if you're still standing underneath it.
 

dobro p

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Okay Hilary, I see how that fits and works. But that means that the ridgepole is an aspect of the querent, right? I think I'd like it better if the ridgepole could be anything at all - an aspect of the querent or another aspect of the situation.

Whatcha think?
 

hilary

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I think it doesn't necessarily make the ridgepole an aspect of the querent, though the querent does seem responsible for loading it. The collapse of your computer from too many installations or your finances from too many demands could also be shameful.
 

bradford

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Applying the literal figure of the ridgepole to our psychological state,
it's our ability to hold up or bear up under extreme circumstances, or even
just under the circumstances, or even when we're under the weather.

We fellers have other interests in the firmness of our poles and keeping
them up, an aspect of the metaphor that's not so unthinkable when you
consider the imagery in 28.2 and 28.5. We certainly don't want shameful
and embarrassing failure in the midst of what is euphemistically called
"clouds and rain"
 

dobro p

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Hilary, I see what you mean. Thanks.

Brad, don't be a penis. Thanks. lol
 

precision grace

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Hilarious thread. I stumbled upon it when looking for ideas on 28.4 as an answer to "where can i find a boyfriend" - distressing inadequacy suddenly took a whole new meaning :D You want a Boyfriend? You CAN"T HANDLE a boyfriend, is what this line seems to be saying. And I fear it is right. Sigh.

I don't 'belong' anywhere but with myself. ;) @bradford
 

charly

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Hilarious thread. I stumbled upon it when looking for ideas on 28.4 as an answer to "where can i find a boyfriend" - distressing inadequacy suddenly took a whole new meaning :D You want a Boyfriend? You CAN"T HANDLE a boyfriend, is what this line seems to be saying. And I fear it is right. Sigh.

I don't 'belong' anywhere but with myself. ;) @bradford

Hi, Grace:

I have another reading. The Changes doesn't use to be sarcastic. And use to answer to the question.
If you are able or not to handle a boyfriend was not what you asked. The word translated INADEQUACY means plainly STINGY / LACKING OF GENEROSITY.

28.4 Is hard to translate literally, but one possibility is:


dong long ji
ROOF-BEAM PROSPEROUS: LUCKY
Phallus prosperous: lucky. (1)
Holding the self esteem of your boyfriend will be for good.

you ta lin
TO HAVE IT: STINGY.
But to be over-possessive with him will lack of generosity.
Don't try to handle a boyfriend​

But what about the question: WHERE?

With a lucky (generous) disposition will find a boyfriend where you are, near you. Remaining here and now.
If there are no boys near you move where they are.

Another possibility for the place is that dong long can be traslated as ROOF-BEAM PROSPEROUS or as ROOF-BEAM DRUMMING (MAKING SOUND OF DRUMS). And where can one hear the sounds of the beams? Below the roof, of course, say, in the intimacy, maybe on the bed.

Whatever the reading, the sense is that you'll find a boyfriend in the place where you can offer your love no matters if the bedchamber or the wilderness. The roof beam can be a metaphor for the banches of the trees in the sacred forest (remember the Song of Songs, it also quoted the roof beams).

And take on account that all H.28 has to do with TRANSGRESSION, LOVE and MARRIAGE. Maybe sometimes disreputable, but never wrong. Always without blame.


All the best,


Charly


______________
(1) the roof beam is a phallic symbol and the character TA (it) is somewhere translated by Lise as SNAKE, which is also a phallic symbol, but that's another story.
Ch.
 

bradford

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No, Charly, you are incorrect here-
Stingy is not the meaning of Lin in the Zhouyi.
It is primarily an embarrassment or humiliation due to shortcomings.
See how it's used at 03.3, 04.1, 04.4, 11.6, 13.2, 18.4, 20.1, 21.3, 22.5 and so on.
A gloss of stingy doesn't work in a single one of those. It is not a core meaning here.

This is not to say that it doesn't have that meaning in other literature, where it also
sometimes means regret.
 

charly

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Hi, Brad:

I was only reading a consult and I believe that the literal sense STINGY fits well here.

Of course, I don't claim that's the only good translation. I've found that it fits well for many occasions in the Zhou Yi although I've translated lin as SH_T! in some cases.

Ex.:

22.5
... A ROLL OF SILK LITTLE, LITTLE: STINGY. END LUCKY.
... a poor gift can depict lack of generosity but at the end can become else.
... a poor roll (phallic symbol), Sh_t! Later can grow.

Maybe you prefer humilliation but I believe that stingy also fits well.


All the best,


Charly
 
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