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Line 6: high point or endgame?

hilary

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Pouring your whole self into beginning something - lavishing care and attention into polishing each buckle of your horses' harness, taking out a second mortgage to buy the chariot, putting your whole self on the line... - when it's never going to get off the ground. And if you stay here, you won't have enough blood left in you to start anything new.
 

cesca

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Pouring your whole self into beginning something - lavishing care and attention into polishing each buckle of your horses' harness, taking out a second mortgage to buy the chariot, putting your whole self on the line... - when it's never going to get off the ground. And if you stay here, you won't have enough blood left in you to start anything new.

I see it as just as dire, but somehow less serious: You're at the end of the gua, can't go any further, yet you can't turn back either. It's all gone tits up, spectacularly. But hey, that's no reason to make a spectacle of yourself -- come on, pull yourself together and stop making such a scene.

Like an ironic sort of gentle chiding -- 'yes, that definitely went right down the pan...and you're making sure everyone knows it'.

Maybe implying it's sort of ... childish ... to carry on like that.

Cesca
 

hilary

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Nice take on it, thank you. I think that most dire lines have this kind of milder version, and I often hear ironic overtones. Like 16.5: 'Hm, it hasn't actually killed you, has it?'
 

dobro p

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More and more often, I get something out of what ISN'T in a line or hexagram. So, because 3.6 doesn't have any valuation added to the line, I'm thinking it doesn't have to be as dire as it looks. I know, I know - somebody's gonna say: "The reason it doesn't have any valuation added to the line is cuz it's so obvious that it's bad news that it doesn't need to be said."

But maybe lines with a lack of valuation lack the valuation because there's a sort of built-in ambiguity. Not an ambiguity in the linguistic expression of the situation in the Yi, but in the very situation itself. "It was the best of times; it was the worst of times." Or maybe it's even more ambiguous than coincidental extremes; maybe it's like this: "Well, dobro, this is a weird old situation, that's for sure. Now...whatcha gonna make of it?"
 

dobro p

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20.6 - I think it's a high point because the contemplation is of others, not oneself. Your mileage may vary, though - perhaps you don't see 'contemplation of the whole group' as higher than 'contemplation of one's self'.

19.6 - neither endgame nor high point. Hmm.... It's not endgame, cuz the line still indicates that the overall undertaking/overseeing of 19 still obtains as fully as in the case of the other lines, and it's not high point, cuz lines like 19.1 and 19.2 are as 'auspicious' and as full of 19-ness as 19.6, if not more. So, why would the 19-ness of line 6 not be waning? What is it about 19 that makes its essence as strong in the first and top lines as in the other lines?
 
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dobro p

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27.6 - high point. Instead of rejecting or overturning nourishment, you've gone to the source. Now *that* is nourishment. I like the way 'danger' is added to the image. Nothing if not useful, the Yi.
 

dobro p

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21.6: endgame. The obstacle here, the cangue covering the ears, isn't being overcome (overcoming obstacles is the whole point of 21) at all, hence the 'misfortune' valuation. The time of breaking through obstacles is passing at the very same time that an obstacle needs to be broken through.
 

auriel

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dobro
don't want to dash yer fine theoretical musics. but its a nice parallel here: 21; a law, a theory, technique, or rule of thumb is constructed as a tool to gnaw through the barriers and unite things that tend to enhance their own separateness at the expense of right order (like the various market vendors in cut-throat competition, you and your meal on the hoof, the urge to rape, plunder, kill and society or even conflicting readings of the Yi); when this union is not accomplished, when rules are flouted- punishment 21.6; when the constructed law is obsessed with to the point of lost contact with reality. 21.6.
endgames.
but it (21.6) also describes the prior condition too: the problem sets we have we have to gnaw on come as a result of over-concentration on one thing at the expense of others, balance forfeited. by the time it comes to chewing gristle you should have already gone to the supermarket;
disconnect your ipod and do your homework or you wont get supper. C:|
 

dobro p

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The reason I think 21.6 isn't a high point of Hex 21 is cuz, for me, the essence of 21 is breaking through the obstacle, whereas the punishment is just a useful tool to that end, not the end in itself. (The breaking through is the end, or goal.) So 21.6 doesn't image breaking through an obstacle; it images both a punishment and an obstacle (which is a rather nifty double image, I think. You can't hear because of the cangue; you're being punished with a cangue because you didn't listen.)
 

Sparhawk

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Any thoughts on 17.6 ?

Endgame... Pretty much, IMO. The image of the king, offering to the West Mountain, a place of rapid sunsets and approaching darkness, shows a departure.

I will add a cool quote for this line by RGH Siu (let's try to see the endgame there...):
Suppose a ruler wants... a garment made from cloth that is difficult to cut properly; he will certainly look for a skillful tailor....To cure a sick horse, he will certainly look for a skillful physician. For all such tasks the ruler will not employ his relatives, nor those who are rich and noble but lack merit, nor those who are merely good looking, for he understands that they are not capable of performing them...But when it is a question of governing the state, it is not so. For this task, the ruler selects those who are merely good-looking...Does he care less for the state than for a sick horse or a suit of clothes?...
When the sage-kings of old governed the world, those whom they enriched and ennobled were not necessarily their relatives, or the rich and noble, or the good-looking. Thus Shun had been a farmer...a potter...a fisherman...and a peddler. But Yao discovered him...made him emperor, and turned over to him the control of the empire and the government of the people.
Mozi (479-381 B.C.)​
 
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Trojina

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well i checked out my Portable Dragon (cheating, looking for clues) and the commentary is The sage, who is retired, is recalled by the king because of his unique qualifications. The faithful and effective subject is rewarded

So how is that an endgame ? Aha I get it, its an endgame for the ones who had no real talent who were there only because of their nobility, looks etc who were blind followers.

Hmm then isn't it a highpoint for the ones who have real skill and an end game for those who don't ? So 17.6 could be either depending on ones relation to the question one has asked ? Wondering why you always see it as endgame then ?
 

Sparhawk

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well i checked out my Portable Dragon (cheating, looking for clues) and the commentary is The sage, who is retired, is recalled by the king because of his unique qualifications. The faithful and effective subject is rewarded

So how is that an endgame ? Aha I get it, its an endgame for the ones who had no real talent who were there only because of their nobility, looks etc who were blind followers.

Hmm then isn't it a highpoint for the ones who have real skill and an end game for those who don't ? So 17.6 could be either depending on ones relation to the question one has asked ? Wondering why you always see it as endgame then ?

Thanks for typing that,...I was lazy... :D For some reason, I like better his literary quotes than his interpretations of the lines. Sometimes I feel a disconnection between them, which doesn't make make much sense since the quotes are there to support his interpretations... In any case, in this I go by the imagery of the text and what it suggest to me. The imagery shows me the culmination of the time of "Following" in the sixth line. A wrap-up.
 

dobro p

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For me, 17.6 falls into the (rather large) category of 'lines which are mysterious to me'. These days, I'm reading it as having two parts, but I'm having trouble seeing the relation between the two parts:

The first part talks about a strong connection that holds something back as it's being followed.

The second part talks about an important sacrifice.

What I don't see is whether the first part is positive or negative, and whether the sacrifice talked about in the second part refers to that strong connection and following that's going on in the first part.

So, high point or endgame? The strength of the connection and following suggests high point, but what's the nature of that sacrifice? Is it a sacrifice that rides on the strength of the connection and following? That would be high point. Or does it sacrifice the connection and following (because the time of following is fading)? That would be endgame.

I don't know. The link to Hex 25 doesn't help me, either.

Your call.
 

Tohpol

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So, high point or endgame? The strength of the connection and following suggests high point, but what's the nature of that sacrifice? Is it a sacrifice that rides on the strength of the connection and following? That would be high point. Or does it sacrifice the connection and following (because the time of following is fading)? That would be endgame.

I don't know. The link to Hex 25 doesn't help me, either.

Your call.


Reviewing what was said in this thread on 17.6:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=4120

Topal
 

Sparhawk

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Thanks! I forgot there was a thread dedicated to this line... Daunting and slippery, to say the least.
 

dobro p

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Daunting and slippery, to say the least.

Quite simply capable of being interpreted in one of at least two ways.

Hex 25 is perhaps 'without entanglement'. So how does that work its way into the meaning of 17.6? Imagine a leader with a very attached following. How does he/she become 'without entanglement' in this situation? 17.6 suggests the way is via a sacrifice. Good idea. But does the leader keep the followers with all their attachments and demands (kind of like Ramana Maharsi, I think, at the end of his life), or does the leader sacrifice the binding, onerous connection between himself and the followers (Lao Tse?)

I'm tending toward the former. You have to be able to sustain a certain amount of dynamic tension in order for good things to happen, and the former interpretation allows for that; indeed, it exploits it and supports it simultaneously. That would be high point, then.
 

Sparhawk

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I'm tending toward the former. You have to be able to sustain a certain amount of dynamic tension in order for good things to happen, and the former interpretation allows for that; indeed, it exploits it and supports it simultaneously. That would be high point, then.


Not so fast... :D (Just to be a contrarian, mind you, as I agree that it can be interpreted in many ways...)

Let me borrow from Lindsay's post in the other thread as I think he was on the right track:

Lindsay said:
The first part of it is anyone's guess. In Chinese:

ju1 - seized, captured
xi4 - bound, tied up
zhi1 - they, them
Possibly: "they are seized and tied up"

nai3 - then, after this
cong2 - follow, pursue
wei2 - tied up, held fast
zhi1 - they, them
Possibly: "then those who follow are tied up"

What does this mean? Beats me. I have looked at 15 translations by scholars familiar with old Chinese, and there are 15 different interpretations. If anyone says they know the exact meaning, I would question that claim seriously.

Let's split some hairs: Would you agree that the "pivot" character in the line is (zhi1) 之? It is used as a pronoun but it has other meanings. According to Wieger, the original meanings were progress, development, continuity. It is only recently (taking "recently" with a grain of salt as I don't know how far back in history that goes...) that it is used as a modifier, pronoun and, very important, as a possessive (i.e. its, his/hers). For example, changing lines were written thusly: Kun 之 Zhun (2,1.5>3), meaning Kun 'its' Zhun.

The thing is, how far back in history are we willing to go to assume the text of the Yi remains intact and true to the original and thus to its correct semantic meaning? Now, I won't word it, but, as an exercise (not saying it is correct...), try to substitute the "modern" pronoun usage of zhi1 for some of the original meaning of the character. Possible endgame or not?
 

charly

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... Would you agree that the "pivot" character in the line is (zhi1) 之? It is used as a pronoun but it has other meanings. According to Wieger, the original meanings were progress, development, continuity... it is used as a modifier, pronoun and, very important, as a possessive (i.e. its, his/hers)... as an exercise (not saying it is correct...), try to substitute the "modern" pronoun usage of zhi1 for some of the original meaning of the character...

Luis:

From Sears Chinese Etymology, an oracle bone zhi character:
j14730.gif


... Signific: 之 remnant
Etymology: ... A foot print pointing forward, Cursive form of 止
... ShuoWen: 出也象艸過屮枝莖益大有所之一者地也凡之之屬皆從之
... English Senses For zhi1: to go to / to leave for / to arrive at / zigzag / winding / an expletive / third person objective case ( it / her / him / them ) / ( this / that / these / those / ( possessive particle ) of
http://www.chineseetymology.org/Cha...aspx?characterInput=之&submitButton1=Etymology

Sears says it's a footprint, but the modern shape looks like «the mark of the Zorro» meanwhile oracle bone character looks like a female pubis standing on an horizontal stroke.

Um andar de gacela, una cinturita de avispa, piel de terciopelo, cabellos de lino, manos de Eurídice, ¡qué garota Dios mío! unos piecitos... pequeñicos... unos pies cúbicos, el talón de Aquiles, la nuez moscada y la lengua muerta, los ojos de buey, palmas de Mallorca, nalgas marinas, y um pubis, tenía um pubis...

JM: Pubis pro nobis.
Les Luthiers: http://www.peseatodo.com.ar/re74d.htm

I'm affraid that I cann't translate this jewel.

Abrazo,

Charly
 

Sparhawk

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Hola Charly,


Luis:

From Sears Chinese Etymology, an oracle bone zhi character:
j14730.gif

If we believe in Wieger, then Sears' Etymology for this character is wrong and it isn't a "Remnant Primitive, A foot print pointing forward, Cursive form of 止." See scans below:

zhi1-01.jpg


Then, here are the ones used as cursive for 止, first a description of 止 and then the character that "looks" like zhi1:

zhi1-02-1.jpg


zhi1-02.jpg


Sears says it's a footprint, but the modern shape looks like «the mark of the Zorro» meanwhile oracle bone character looks like a female pubis standing on an horizontal stroke.
Well, I don't think it looks like a female pubis standing on anything, but, I really like the way you think... :rofl:

Perhaps Brad or Harmen have some more educated ideas about this character...

Un abrazo,
 

dobro p

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It's a cactus, not a pubis. Easy mistake to make, though.
 

charly

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It's a cactus, not a pubis. Easy mistake to make, though.

Dobro:

I'm affraid that that a cactus fits best. Easy mistake indeed!

Don't you think that «the mark of Zorro» is no bad in relation to that cactus?

jby0271l.jpg


And of course, in chinese folklore fox(1) and sexuallity are close related.

Yours,

Charly

___________________
(1)Zorro = fox
 

charly

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... I don't think it looks like a female pubis standing on anything...
Perhaps Brad or Harmen have some more educated ideas about this character ...

Luis:

I thought it was the image of an early Mother Goddess, that's why standing on earth, but Dobro suggests a cactus!

More educated, of course, but I doubt if less dirty minded. See you:

Firsth of all, thanks for the scans. Wieger issuing stands close to the Dobro's cactus, but don't trust all the things Wieger says, most often he isn't but another dirty guy.

Let me start from Sears. I've found my feet! You always find your feet because they are appended to you.

Thus foot → appended → to pertain to → 's

The mark of pertaining, like the Zorro's Zeta → zhi, also valid for cactus lovers.

It marks something that pertains to you like an appended part of your body, maybe a wife (or a husband) or your own other ego, your own mirror image. Maybe Zhi could function like an equation mark:

x's y (y of x, y pertains to x), or
x = y (x equal to y o x implies y)

33.2 example:

執 | zhi2 | to execute a plan / to grasp / to catch (1)
之 | zhi1 | 's / him / her / it / [ = ?]
用 | yong4 | to use / to apply
黃 | huang2 | yellow / golden
牛 | niu2 | ox (no genre) / cow / bull /
之 | zhi1 | 's / him / her / it /
革 | ge2 | leather / skin / to remove / to strip / [ nakedness ? ] (2)

莫 | mo4 | do not / none / do not (3)
之 | zhi1 | 's / him / her / it /
勝 | sheng4 | able to do / competent enough to / ability
說 | shuo1 | persuade / speak / joy (4)

Quoting Müller:
(1) 愛執 The grip of love and desire.
(2) 革 Skins, hides, pelts; strip, cut off.
(3)莫 Not; none; no; do not; ... contrary (to wishes).
(4) 說 To speak, say, talk, discourse, expound; speech, etc. Used for 悅 pleased.

Functions of Zhi in the 33.2 text:



To grasp (執 related to love and desire)
is equivalent to / is the same as / implies / requires
to apply (用) ... [the following]

... the stripping (an action, not a noun, not skin / leather)
of the [possessive]
golden ox [no genre, cow for girls, bull for guys? vice versa?]...

...
... ability to speak
pertains to [possessive]
none / nobody
[In sum, impossible to speak of or forbidden to speak of → ineffable, maybe holy]

Temporary:
«To grasp (to passionately catch) requires to apply the ineffable stripping of the golden ... [you choose: ox, cow, bull... or methaphoric]» (1)

Common but straight. I believe you were right, 之zhi is the key, a winding key.

See you that the line begins with a fun zhi-zhi (little laugh, Je je!)

Un abrazo,

Charly

_____________________
(1) niu (ox) doesn't it sound pretty close to nü (woman)?
 

Sparhawk

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Firsth of all, thanks for the scans. Wieger issuing stands close to the Dobro's cactus, but don't trust all the things Wieger says, most often he isn't but another dirty guy.

Aren't we all... :rofl:
 

heylise

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Could it be that 17.6 has to do with catching things? Fishing for salmon, but you can only catch it if you can think like salmon, become salmon. Become the deer, become the rabbit.

"Embrace (cherish) it and relate with it. (Only) then follow and catch it. The king offers a sacrifice at the Western Mountain."

Of course it will apply to more than catching dinner, there are lots of things which have to be caught because they will not fall in your lap by themselves. And the fanyao of innocent moving also makes sense. Not good to move around in the forest that way, you will chase everything away.

For becoming one with what you desire a sacrifice might be a good start. Or sacrificing a part of what the gods let you catch this way. Vaguely I remember something like that from a story of American Indians. 'Becoming the salmon' is not vague, but there was also something about giving back of it.

Interesting is that one of the meanings of wei2 'catch' is netting.

I hope I am not disturbing anything, have to read most of the posts yet, but this came up.. so..

LiSe
 

Sparhawk

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"Embrace (cherish) it and relate with it. (Only) then follow and catch it. The king offers a sacrifice at the Western Mountain."

.....


I hope I am not disturbing anything, have to read most of the posts yet, but this came up.. so..

LiSe


Sigh, I wish you would disturb more often... :) It is a nice concept, indeed. Now, I see you took the traditional approach to 之 and translated it as the pronoun "it," which is fine. My other ideas are only speculations to support my view of the line.
 

electraglide

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The Prime 3D Model Solves This Quite Easily ( and takes years off your study time )



"Is it the last word thing again?" Mr Clever Clogs said to Stone Monkey.
a-dragon.gif

:bows:
"Ah so,
an easy way
out"

Stone Monkey retorted (as it began to turn into sand)


 

dobro p

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If you wait long enough for it, the little yellow guy bows his head just as Luis' dragon breathes fire on him.
 

dobro p

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Could it be that 17.6 has to do with catching things? Fishing for salmon, but you can only catch it if you can think like salmon, become salmon. Become the deer, become the rabbit.

"Embrace (cherish) it and relate with it. (Only) then follow and catch it. The king offers a sacrifice at the Western Mountain."

Interesting is that one of the meanings of wei2 'catch' is netting.

I hope I am not disturbing anything, have to read most of the posts yet, but this came up.. so..

LiSe

Maybe. 17.2 and 17.3 talk about 'binding', 17.4 talks about catching, and 17.5 talks about 'capturing' (I render it as 'capturing' rather than sincerity, which I don't think works as well). So, attachment and catching or capturing seems to run throughout 17. I like how the 'maturity' that's mentioned in 17.3 is echoed in its correlate, 17.6. I see the sacrifice by the king on the Western Mountain as a kind of maturity. Both are yin lines, and they echo each other in terms of value and meaning I think. So, looking at it that way, the fact that 17.3 leaves the 'small son' behind ('letting go small son') might indicate that in 17.6, the king is using the sacrifice on the Western Mountain as a way to leave his following behind. Which, if true, means 17.6 is endgame, cuz the time of following is past.
 

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