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Line 6: high point or endgame?

Sparhawk

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I think they are very alive court ladies that do a belly dance for the sage. Or perhaps even, yes of course, a STRIPtease!

But let's ask Luis, he is an expert in these matters. :D

Sorry, I ran out of single dollars... Come and visit Philadelphia and call me at the beginning of the month and we'll go together to Delilah's... :rofl:
 

martin

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See Trojan, they are not dead, they are in Philadelphia, alive and kicking! :rofl:
 

Tohpol

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Just wanted to return ever so briefly to the enigmatic 17.6 as I had another reading on a question that still vexes me no end.

I was involved with an "esoteric/metaphysical" group shall we say, for many years and a very fine bunch of folks they are. Well, I suppose I wasn't quite ready for that level of inner work in the end. Not to that intensity. I tried, but no banana...That still creates some sorrow in me so hence the return to 17.6.

I do think there are many "tests" we set ourselves in life directly related to the idea of a spiritual "path" and 17 for me, is very much about this process of adaption, and service. What do we follow? Our heart our intellect? Religion? Science? A group? Our individuality? Lies or truth? Our ego or the soul?

I wasn't ready for that particular level of work and in that context; to fight the dragon of the ego you might say, though I certainly thought I was. Yet, I felt that they were, in a very real sense my spiritual family. So, still feeling a bit guilty and glum about my behaviour I asked if my deciding to leave this "network" was indicative of this failure? Was it a kind of "just desserts"? And in response was 17.6. just as it was eight months ago to a similar question.

I just wanted to say that Mike and Dobro are especially are very much on the ball with this one - in this experience anyhow. It is a sacrifice on the part of a follower that may well be extremely painful. There is shadow but there is light also in an ever-present paradox - but it fits. It is a sacrifice that may allow the real King, the Sage to emerge from the trials of following in a way that honours the path in a non-linear sense. In other words, the sacrifice may have been part of the plan all along, a loss that we kick against and indulgently mourn but we have to let the loss do it's job. Unpleasant but a much more real expression of the Sage energy which can be allowed to flow down from the mountain top. That "end game" is in actual fact, always a potential beginning.

So I obviously thought, if I could have done things differently and more honourably shall we say, and seen that my behaviour was "off" then could things have been different. Of course. But either way, the lesson - with or without loss - is still learned. In other words, if I had been able to SEE and take action and applied the knowledge I had from a strength of will, then this would have been a victory for the inner King. But because I could not then a sacrifice followed. The result can potentially be the same, not in terms of regaining what was lost (otherwise it would be a diluted sacrifice) but allowing the understanding of why there was a sacrifice and thus seeding the renewal of a truer beginning. So, there you have it...:)

Thank you for an excellent thread.

Topal
 

Tohpol

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Sorry, I ran out of single dollars... Come and visit Philadelphia and call me at the beginning of the month and we'll go together to Delilah's..

Now we know who that guy is on the corner table in a haze of neon cigar smoke and wad of dollar bills next to his steak tartar - or should that be meat and two veg? :D

Topal
 

dobro p

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No, no way. See, Luis is the *dancer*, not the gawker. He's the sorta guy who knows where the fun is and you can't keep a good man down. And he's always loved tassles.
 

Trojina

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OMG, they are dead? :eek: Noooooooo, can't be.
I think they are very alive court ladies that do a belly dance for the sage. Or perhaps even, yes of course, a STRIPtease!

But let's ask Luis, he is an expert in these matters. :D

Ah see I get so muddled with the imagery of 23.5 - still ! You think the fish are the court ladies ? I think the court ladies have a string of fish - or they've gone fishing with their skirts tucked into their suspenders :rofl:

Gender must play a huge part in how we interpret the Yi - as a female I don't automatically think of tassels and strippers for the court ladies, hmmm but Luis in tassells, yes thats quite feasible, a perfect image of 58.6 :mischief:
 

Sparhawk

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No, no way. See, Luis is the *dancer*, not the gawker. He's the sorta guy who knows where the fun is and you can't keep a good man down. And he's always loved tassles.

Man, if I thought I would look a tenth as good as any of those ladies I would be in drags 24/7... :rofl:
 

Sparhawk

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hmmm but Luis in tassells, yes thats quite feasible, a perfect image of 58.6 :mischief:


I strive to please... :rofl: OTOH, a hairy chest with nipple tassels, really??? :eek: brrrr!!
 

charly

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...Gender must play a huge part in how we interpret the Yi - as a female I don't automatically think of tassels and strippers for the court ladies ...
Troyan:

Gender matters indeed. The court ladies are not so much in the text but in the imagination. See the chinese text:

貫guan4: pierce / to string / [like a string for cowrie shells]
魚yu2: fish /
以yi3: to use / according to / so as to / ... introduce parallellism / ...
宮gong1: palace /
人ren2: person / people /
寵chong3: emperor's love / favor / [Dragon's House]
无wu2 / not / no /
不bu4 / un (negative prefix) / not / no /
利li4 / benefit / profit /

Temporary translation for 23.5:

«Like a string for a fish is the Emperor's favor for the Court-People. No unprofitable [... but subduing] » (1)

Good advice for the sort of persons who uses the YiJing in early times : Court Diviners.

But in the mind of the reader many associations emerge:

double flowing of «cowrie shells»:
1) money, wealth;
2) women yin → women (also a wealth)

court people:
1) courtiers → burocrats, adventurers, ministers → ambitious men
2) courtesans → adventuress, concubines → ambitious women [can become Empresses]

interests conflict between ...

1) the fish and the person who hold the string
2) emperors or kings and courtiers / courtesans
3) benefits and costs
4) fishes and dragons, two emblematic / totemic animals
5) maybe earlier clanic / distributed power and later centralized power
6) men and women ?

yours,


Charly

_________________
(1) Emperor's favor could be also Emperor's love or maybe Emperor's lovers
 

Tohpol

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Man, if I thought I would look a tenth as good as any of those ladies I would be in drags 24/7... :rofl:

"Luis" by day "Divine" by night...
divine.jpg
 

Sparhawk

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"Luis" by day "Divine" by night...


LOL!! Yup, pretty much it. Dobro should print that picture and imagine me in THAT outfit. That'll teach him... :rofl:
 

Trojina

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Thanks Charly thats interesting - I started a thread on 23.5 once so i have no excuse really, but its such a weird line
 

charly

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...I think the court ladies have a string of fish - or they've gone fishing with their skirts tucked into their suspenders :rofl: ...

Troyan:

Another thing, in spanish we have «pez» for living fish and «pescado» for dead fish.

In spanish when the fish are still alive they are called "pez" and when they're being served on a plate they're referred to as "pescado".
from: http://www.espanolparagringos.blogspot.com/

In my country slang «pescado» is used to point out a foolish guy, a «pigeon» and some court ladies seeks for pigeons indeed.

For a japanese print see: http://www.hi.u-tokyo.ac.jp/personal/yokoyama/nishikie/ishin1l/lc000035.jpg

But also:

The fish is an emblem of wealth, regeneration, harmony, and conjugal bliss.

flyingcarpfish.jpg


A pair of fishes symboizes the joys of union, a charm to avert evil, and are often given as a betrothal gift to the family of the bride.​
from: http://www.waiapo.com/orientalcats/symbolism.html

See the fish, the position of the body, see the fins. Any resemblance with the «cactus»?, with the earth radical?


About the heart radical:
2005414105332339.jpg
from: http://www.chedan.com/ShowArticle.asp?ArticleID=1307

The seal at the top right says: «土地神» Land's God (?)

Yours,

Charly
 
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hollis

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love that yin yang ing.

53 line 6 is enigmatic , cause after all that gradual development, migration, or such, all you have is a handful of feathers. for me, it's been an end game experience. I have experienced anti climax with this line. On an energetic level, it is Qi.

27 line 6 has been a high point, the starting point of the meaning of the whole hexagram, and it is yang in expression.
 

Trojina

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27 line 6 has been a high point, the starting point of the meaning of the whole hexagram, and it is yang in expression.

Not exactly sure what you mean by the 'starting point' here Hollis, do you mean at line 6 you are well able to nourish yourself ? Some people say this this line indicates being used by others for their nourishment so its a mixed blessing.
 
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maremaria

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Not exactly sure what you mean by the 'starting point' here Hollis, do you mean at line 6 you are well able to nourish yourself ? Some people say this this line indicates being used by others for their nourishment so its a mixed blessing.

Hi Trojan,
Maybe is a point where one examines in a clear way who s/he nourishs and for what reason. Does one shares his/hers "food" in a balanced way? Does one saves food for his/hers own needs ? Does one let oneself to be used ?
It seems like a mixed blessing, I know that from personal experience, but if it is a point where you realise you are away of your town(24), is good ( :eek:) to know that. It has the potential to be a "starting point", to the trip back to your own town which migth be in the other bank of the "great water" . Just a thougth....

Maria
 

Tohpol

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27 line 6 has been a high point, the starting point of the meaning of the whole hexagram, and it is yang in expression.

the Sorrells on 27.6:

"Being the source of nourishment is both dangerous and lucky:

You are the source of nourishment. Either your wisdom feeds others, or you are a sacrificial lamb. Once the fulfilment has taken place, you will be free to move on to something new."

Kinda puts it in a nutshell. Though Karcher, as usual, is much more upbeat saying it's all wonderful. The key thing here is awareness I think. You know that the ghosts and bad memories of the past will be in amongst the fresh new visions; the feminine/masculine vampire is out to suck your energy and you let them because you know you're getting something out of it too. Everybody's happy as long as you keep one eye fixed on what it's really all about. You also know when to pull back before it gets dangerous. The same thing can be applied to the greater good and giving until you have no more to give. That can be a very saintly sacrifice but you have to look after yourself too.

Seems like it could be about keeping common sense at the forefront and not going to extremes so that all important nourishment can operate as a form of symbiosis for all.

Topal
 
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hollis

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Not exactly sure what you mean by the 'starting point' here Hollis, do you mean at line 6 you are well able to nourish yourself ? Some people say this this line indicates being used by others for their nourishment so its a mixed blessing.

Hi Trojan, I took 'starting point' from Wu Jing Nuan, (Lise calls it the germ, Bradford has it as the source beginning of appetite hunger, it seems to me) but for some reason the Wu Jing Nuan has worked for me with this line. I love the Sorrells book, and I really use it , but a few, a minor few of their readings of the lines sometimes, for practicalities sake, lessen the metaphor.. (In their book, hex 2 line 5 is another one).

I also like what Maria has written here, and I think she is right. It is a mixed blessing, or curse, it is one of the lines in the YJ where I sometimes feel the text is panting and out of breath to trying to explain itself. In the hunger craving cycle, it is maybe where one can finally be done with it, get what you have been ailing for, and return to your vitality , jiang (24).

I think it is a starting point of a journey, (24), in which you are nourishing others and they in turn nourish you. But maybe that is overly optimistic, and parasitic side, is that one wouldnt like that, and opt out.
 
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dobro p

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53 line 6 is enigmatic , cause after all that gradual development, migration, or such, all you have is a handful of feathers. for me, it's been an end game experience.

Well, it's sure not high point, for sure. I think the high point, the epitome, the perfect expression of 56 is either in line 2, line 5 or in the main text.

But in addition to high point and endgame, perhaps we should add another category: negative expression of the hexagram idea. That would be 56.6 - the person who does exactly the opposite of what's required of the traveller/wanderer/alien/expat. 56.1 would fall into the same category.
 

Trojina

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Thanks for explaining Hollis and Maria and Topal - i feel nourished :)
 

dobro p

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48.6 - high point.

49.5 - high point (49.6 is neither high point nor endgame)

50.6 - high point

51.6 - endgame (the shock isn't directed toward self, which means you can maintain the balance and mindfulness talked about in the main text)

52.6 - high point

53.6 - high point

54.6 - endgame

55.6 - endgame

56.6 - endgame

57.6 - endgame

So there.
 

Tohpol

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Unless I missed it - always possible - what about 23.6?

I think it is the end of the stripping process and a return to a new way. if we can view it in simplistic terms it is "positive" in that this splitting apart can now allow any number of integrative qualities to return. Or is it that the fruit remains uneaten after all? The best remains, but it is up to us what we do with it? Kind of a high point or end game depending on our awareness after that process.

What are folks' experience of this line? Rotten to the core or a fine new seed emerging on the road to 46?

Just found one of Chris Lofting's ideas on 23:

"As 23 covers pruning so it covers the wheat that is the last bastion of order amongst all of the chaos ;-) -- and so the role of the sage is covered in the position and anything else covering the 'vibe' - this the 23-24 qualities cover the 'prior/post' perspectives often associated with these lines (and then note that 23+24 = 27 the representative of infrastructure and so what is between beginning and ending ;-))"

Topal
 
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my_key

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Topal
Like your words . Wow 23.6 - A brave new world.
We have overcome the small within us and are now receptive to greater things. A positive positive. No doubt about it.

Unless of course your glass is half empty.

Mike
 

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