Love life

[martin]

Do you think then that when we show subjects (that are not familiar with the Yi, as in my thought experiment) pictures of trigrams they will automatically (!) start to experience the corresponding basic emotions or other sensations that fit into the corresponding expansive/contractive B category ?

If that is true the ancients didn't need a key, but I find it hard to believe.
It is a testable hypothesis though, and it's not even difficult to test.

 

[bruce_g]

Chris,

All brain and no heart gives Johnny a fat head.

 

[lightofreason]

Do you think then that when we show subjects (that are not familiar with the Yi, as in my thought experiment) pictures of trigrams they will automatically (!) start to experience the corresponding basic emotions or other sensations that fit into the corresponding expansive/contractive B category ?

I think you would need to experience self-referencing to get the 'feel' quickly - otherwise it will, like EPR etc, develop over time; continued exposure to 'dots' will lead to them forming into a pattern reflecting what is 'behind' the dots ;-)

Thus starting with a dichotomy will set down the sense of A/NOT-A. (yang line, yin line). THEN move to the first level of self-referencing to give digrams where the pure A and pure NOT-A continue but now comes the yang over yin, yin over yang.

The path is of wholes into parts. The next level is a jump to introduce relationships in TWO forms, bonding and binding appear at the same time.

I see no real problem in , given a sense of whole, one can derive a sense of part where that partness covers boundary creation.

IOW you cannot start with trigrams or hexagrams, you start with the steps that lead to them and then they self-reference to refine their own understanding (e.g. heaven doubled is no longer the trigram of heaven associatable with perseverence, it has been refined into singlemindedness etc) - the REPRESENTATIONS are many - e.g. in Western symbolisms we cover Earth/Air and the first self-reference gives the emergence of water/fire etc. LOCAL context, combined with an ad hoc nature, then takes us into the many forms of representation of the core qualities.

A dichotomy comes in the form of:

(a) asymmetric : Z <= Y <= X
within which is:
(b) symmetric : Z = Y = X (idealism etc)
(c) anti-symmetric : Z < Y < X (hierarchy)

The instinct from consciousness is to be idealist and so symmetric; XOR perspective. FROM there emerges the realisation of things not being so 'ideal' ;-) -IOW realisations emerge - awareness of hierarchy and on into the awareness of asymmetric dynamics - normal distributions vs power laws/spectrums etc

Consider Mathematics - few are born with innate understanding of Mathematics - they have to learn it BUT they are born with the innate qualities BEHIND Mathematics in the form of blend, bond, bound, bind (and some DO work instinctively with these qualities, attracted to maths like ducks to water)

The raw-to-refined perspective would be easier to learn if the hexagrams took on a pyramid form where there is the intuitive sense of hierarchy in the pyrimid shape.

Chris

 

[lightofreason]

bruce - 747 dude ;-)

 

[frank_r]

All brain and no heart gives Johnny a fat head.

I agree with you bruce, several years ago I did the XOR ing with all hexagrams. And I also think it's a great way to examine the hexagrams!! For me the Yi is the structure of live but the way of interpretation is individual.

I called it XOR -ring the crossing relations. For instance: I imagined myself that somebody who is meeting someone for the first time(24) who want's frienship(13) first there will be a retrait(33). This I did with all the hexagrams and only went further if my mind understood what was happening.

Or I did it when you have several hexagram's for instance there are people together in one room. One is waiting(5), the other one is very cheerfull(58), another one is looking from a distance(20) and the last one is very busy and has lot's of energy(1).

When you do the crossing(XOR ing) technique. You get the resonance of 19. there will be a atmosfere of aproach towards each other. when my brain sets itself to this result it will eventually fit. But the problem with my brain was that it would also fit when I did the crossing with 2 hexagrams for instance wenn I follow someone(17) with a great feeling of responsiblity(28) there will be a great breakthrough(43).
But crossing between 17 and 28 is not 43 but 11. So my brain is sometimes playing tricks with me. And that's why I think that the heart has to be in charge.

 

[lightofreason]

frank, the point with the IC+ XOR is that it maps directly to what the brain does with parts analysis - it uses XOR to extract parts from a whole. MANY have tried MANY interpretations of mapping logic operators to the IC and all have come up with something but it is all 'speculative' and lacking consistancy (See andreas' paper with Karcher etc as an example).

The interpretation of IC+ re XOR and X-ness is linked to properties of self-referencing outside of me or you or bruce - the property comes with the methodology rooted in our brains. As such the methodology works applied to MBTI categories or emotions etc etc ANYTHING derived from self-referencing - we are not dealing with the IC here, we are dealing with something that the IC reflects.

Bruce does not 'get' this - it is WAY over his head (and so 747 in that they fly really high over our heads ;-))

So - using the XOR dynamic as covered in IC+ allows the IC to describe itself - which is what is allowed in self-referencing. XOR a hexagram with all of the others and you get
(a) the expression of that hexagram THROUGH the other and (b) the expression of all of the others through it.

The point is that the methodology is that used in our brains, it is a hard-coded process - it isnt speculation, it isnt "playing around with XOR", we have uncovered a fundamental dynamic of self-referencing, entanglement of the whole in all parts, and how to access that data. Thus, for example, XOR-ing 27 with ANY hexagram will give you the qualities of 27 expressed through that hexagram by analogy to a third hexagram. Based on your XOR exercise that you have described you have not understood what is going on here. We have asked the 'right' question re what the XOR-ing does in that this perspective gives consistant results due to the 'hard coding' of the method and so interpretation.

I repeat, this is a MAJOR revelation of the dynamics of self-referencing in general, not just the IC. I dont think you or bruce understand the value of this discovery to understanding self-referencing dynamics probably since you seem to lack understanding of brain dynamics and the focus on how we as a speices derive meaning - try working through the IDM pages - try the intro:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introIDM.html

whole new world dudes - e.g. since all hexagrams contribute to EACH so that includes the sense of BEGIN and END. IOW each hexagram has a purpose and association with other category systems, and that includes persona types means we all, as particulars, have a definite, identfiable, purpose - and all of that from 'randomness' ;-)

Chris.

 

[bruce_g]

Frank,

That cracked me up! But very well said.

I perceive that the head should come to understand the heart. Not the other way around. So by that model, the heart leads and the mind inspects. Without the inspecting mind, the heart goes along the most tempting and seemingly easiest trail, and that of course leads to grave danger. The Yi puts heart and mind together, lets them walk side-by-side.

 

[lightofreason]

Frank,

That cracked me up! But very well said.

I perceive that the head should come to understand the heart. Not the other way around. So by that model, the heart leads and the mind inspects. Without the inspecting mind, the heart goes along the most tempting and seemingly easiest trail, and that of course leads to grave danger. The Yi puts heart and mind together, lets them walk side-by-side.

747 Bruce. Take the time. Do the work. THEN judge - it is obvious from your posts you have done neither - and understandably so since this IC+ XOR material does introduce a bit of a pardigm shift that can be difficult for many to take.

 

[bruce_g]

Chris,

You’re completely right. Way over my head! If I thought it mattered, if I believed it was life giving, it might capture my interest. Not saying it isn’t life giving for you, though. I’m enraptured by simplicity; those are my wings. There’s only two ways to say something very big: simply or with great elaboration. I think words are horrendously clumsy.

 

[martin]

747? Hmm Chris, so in reality you are ..
George?!

 

[martin]

This stupid #&*!! img code doesn't work, so no picture of the presidential plane alas.
Anyway, if you apply XOR correctly you will surely be able to imagine it.

 

[lightofreason]

;-) Lets see, according to the particular focus I am 'defined' by hex 51 (and so am a member of the collective of 51-ers). Thus my purpose is described by ... hex 35(bring something into the light). I look from the outside like 56(loyalty to something/someone); On the inside it is all 60 (seeking standardisations). Source of nourishment is described by analogy to 43 (spreading the seed)....etc etc

Chris.

 

[bruce_g]

No, no, Chris. Lower, dude. You’re still in explaining mode. Try being.

 

[lightofreason]

;-) Lets see, according to the particular focus I am 'defined' by hex 51 (and so am a member of the collective of 51-ers). Thus my purpose is described by ... hex 35(bring something into the light). I look from the outside like 56(loyalty to something/someone); On the inside it is all 60 (seeking standardisations). Source of nourishment is described by analogy to 43 (spreading the seed)....etc etc

What is of note here is that the above does not define "Chris Lofting", it defines my PARTICULAR nature as a member of a group operating within the species as a whole - there is a genetic factor at work where my singular nature is of no concern.

THEN comes me, as "Chris Lofting", operating as an agent of mediation, a source of orginality WITHIN the above definition and so spanning all possible expressions WITHIN the above general expression where my personal experiences etc contribute to overall expression and so give a unique perspective of things.

By understanding the properties and methods of the particular we can refine the focus of the singular and so form a cooperative relationship and in doing so contribute to the group as well as to my self.

Chris.

 

[frank_r]

;-) Lets see, according to the particular focus I am 'defined' by hex 51 (and so am a member of the collective of 51-ers). Thus my purpose is described by ... hex 35(bring something into the light). I look from the outside like 56(loyalty to something/someone); On the inside it is all 60 (seeking standardisations). Source of nourishment is described by analogy to 43 (spreading the seed)....etc etc

Chris.

LOL ,

Martin I even can't get emoticons on the page!?

Frank R.

 

[martin]

Interesting, these personality types.
I came out as an NFP the last time I did an MBTI test. Emphasis on intuitive feeling and more inclined to perceiving than to judging. Makes sense, it is recognizable.
If I try ro refine that NTP seems to be the best choice. Intuitive thinking + perceiving.
That makes me a hexagram 16 type according to IDM. Earth, corresponding to NFP, as the lower trigram and thunder - NTP - as the upper.

Now XOR hex 16 with all other hexagrams and you will finally have an answer to all those questions about me that you never dared to ask.
For example, what are my roots and purpose, in a general way (karma and dharma if you like)?
XOR 16 with 27, the answer is 21. Problem solving. Yesss!
And now you also know why my teeth hurt sometimes.

 

[lightofreason]

Martin,

To get 'serious' about the mappings - 27-ness covers more so infrastructure of the type and so not so much purpose as body work. Thus the infrastructure of a MAC truck favours load carrying etc but it can be used to drive to the shops!

Thus the infrastructure of 51 is described by 35 with a generic 'design' to bring things into the light, to peoples attention, and thunder does exactly that. The reverse is also true in that the 27-ness of 35 is described by analogy to 51 where 35s infrastructure aids in the presentation process of 35, something 'new' is introduced - we flesh-out the skeletal form to give the full expression.

As such, 16 has a 'natural' bias to problem solving as problem solving has a 'natural' bias to planning, use of foresight etc. the 'legal' element of 21 is the imposing of 'law' and so planning for the future. As is the 'foresight' nature of 16 reflected in laying-down a plan of action etc. Or more so for 16 and the 'yin' bias, the enthusiasm sets a context for 'foreseeing', a focus on 'what could be' etc rather than 'what will be'.

When we introduce 48-ness we focus on where each hexagram/type gets their nourishment - diet affects skeletal form, makes the bones 'strong' etc.

Thus for 51 we have:

100100
011010
------
111110 43

IOW 51 gets its nourishment from 'spreading the word/seed'. As such that activity sustains the hexagram/type.

For 16 we have:

000100
011010
------
011110 28

The focus here is on going the extra distance, going beyond what is normally required. (the raw nature of 28 is expressed as 'excess'. The refined nature is excess doubled and so we turn a perceived negative into a positive and focus on going the extra distance to aid/resolve etc etc - those both negative and positive are derived from a generic 'fact' of 'excess' - no judgement of value as yet)

We can use the 22/47 relationship to describe the outside look and inside look (all of these have both positive and negative traits derived from a more generic form. Thus 47 covers both negative enclosure as well as positive enclosure and in general issues of activity WITHIN the enclosure. 22 on the other hand covers what we put on the outside of the enclosure, the wall, to attract attention to THAT surface and so away from looking 'in'.

For 16 this gives us:

External look:

000100
101001
------
101101 - 30 - reflects a guidance/direction-setting nature

Internal look:

000100
010110
------
010010 - 29 - you control freak you! ;-)

For 51 we have:

External:

100100
101001
------
001101 - 56 - appearance of conditional loyalty

100100
010110
------
110010 - 60 - focus on standardisations (and so 'limitations')


The best hexagram for use in describing the 'correct path' through a hexagram and so its completion, its 'begin-to-end', is I think 63. So this would suggest a good marker for 'general purpose'.

000100
101010
------
101110 49 - revelation, revolution (with guidance comes intense expression)
------

I have seen this revelation aspect of your nature many times ;-)

In 51 types we have:

100100
101010
------
001110 31 - wooing, cooperative enticement. This gets into the focus on new paradigms etc and so the 'sell' (competitive enticement is 33)

Since the MBTI etc only map to 8 to 32 'types', in the IC symbolisms we can go to 64/4096 'types'. WITHIN these operate our unique natures that allow us to CHOOSE a characteristic to work WITHIN the genetically-determined element and so add variation in expression depending on context.

At that level we move into 12-line representations (the singular with a choice of 64 hexagrams operating WITHIN a context of one hexagram and so cover XOR dynamics. When I put on my 27-ness hat, as a 51, the expression is described by analogy to 35.)

(an Aside - when we put electrodes on the skull to detect brain waves their phase is X. When we open up the skull and insert electrodes, the internal form is 180 out of phase - reflecting this 'opposites' in outside/inside as covered in 22/47 perspectives)

Chris
-----------------------------
generic categories of meaning:
------------------------------
Objects bias (differentiating):
BLEND - wholeness, whole numbers
BOUND - partness, rational numbers
Relationships bias (integrating):
BOND - share space, irrational numbers
BIND - share time, imaginary numbers

From these come composites as reals, complex, quaternions, octonions. All else follows....
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introIDM.html

 

[martin]

27-ness covers more so infrastructure of the type and so not so much purpose as body work. Thus the infrastructure of a MAC truck favours load carrying etc but it can be used to drive to the shops!

Yes, agree. It's more what the type is made for or naturally suited for.
A truck is naturally suited to carry heavy loads and an airplane is made for flying. But you can use an airplane as a car and go shopping with it.
I think that the hexagram that you get when you XOR your type hexagram with 27 does fit the "dharma" concept more or less. Or maybe the concept of ones tao, ones natural way. Or ones natural talent.
A bird in a small cage cannot use its flying talent and may feel unhappy because of that. Similarly, an airplane-like employee may feel unhappy and out of place in a work environment in which he is merely used as a car. Not to speak of a car-like employee in a work environment that requires him to fly.

000100
010110
------
010010 - 29 - you control freak you! ;-)

Lol! More or less. There is also the other side, a tendency to give up all control/containment and go completely chaotic inside. Somewhat like the patient on the couch in classical Freudian psychoanalysis who lets his mind go hither and thither in a dreamlike fashion.
But for that a protected and relatively quiet and stable environment is needed and that is where I can get quite control freakerish sometimes. When I am really in the mood for inner chaos a changing environment is too much to deal with, so I may go recluse, stay inside, not answer the phone and so on.

I think hexagram 29 (and the water trigram) has these two sides. On the one hand chaos, a lack of control, and oversensitivity to initial and environmental conditions (like in unstable and chaotic physical systems).
On the other hand, perhaps as a reaction to the chaos, a possibly overdone effort towards containment/control/contractive bounding.
It fits very well with the moon/cancer/4th house symbolism in astrology, (over)sensivity and because of that the need for a protected more or less constant environment, a "home".

 

[sinbaru]

Can someone help me? I've read all your posts here but I think I need someone to read for me because I'm so upset that I can't clear my mind. Yes, this is romance question about a man. I think there's something between us but I don't know what it is precisely or what I should do about it. OR am I imagining a heart connection where none exists? Can one of you help me uncover if there really is a connection between myself and this man and if so, what kind of connection?

 

[martin]

I think many here hesitate to consult the I Ching on behalf of somebody else, Sinbaru. I certainly do.
So maybe you can throw the coins (or whatever method you use) and tell us what you get?

 

[jesed]

Hi sinbaru

Based both in traditional teaching and a large experience, I suggest you another aproach, a little bit longer but much more clear.

Made a Dialogue, following in this order:
a) General Diagnosis of the relationship between X and I
b) Qualification of my position within the relation
c) Qualification of X's position within the relation
d) What is the best way to act toward this relation?

You could find useful reading this explanation of the Dialogue aproach
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?p=35269&highlight=Dialogue#post35269

In common words: Knowing the battle-field (question "a"), and how each one army is moving within it (question "b" and "c"), the wise general can made the correct strategy ("d")

Best wishes

PS If you really need&want a private reading, and if you think I can help; I'm at your orders in the email-adress in my profile

 

[sinbaru]

Jesed,

Thank you for the suggestion. I did as you asked and here are my results. Given that the general diagnosis looks good the answers the responses to the other questions are interesting :

a) What is the general diagnosis of my relationship with A?
45.2.4.5 to 7

This seems generally positive but indicates a lack of trust somewhere (line 5).
(About 10 days ago I asked "Where do I stand with A?" and the Yi gave me 45.4 to 8.)


b) What is my position within this relationship with A?
26.1.6 to 46 (both have 54 as the nuclear hex I noticed)

I'm confused here. From the 26 I'm being stopped in some way I think and danger is present. Line 6 is saying that it will pass?

c) What is A's position within this relationship?
14.4 to 26

I have always had a lot of trouble with this line. What's it about? It's curious that 26 appears in both b) and c).

d) What's the best way for me to act toward this relationship?
1.1.6 to 28

Right off from d) I'd say that this is a very unusual and stressful situation, which is true. 1 to 28 is telling me not to do anything. Strange answers considering the response to a)

 

[lightofreason]

sinbaru,

One of the interesting things about consciousness and the spoken/written word is that the serial, 'rigid', but precise, communication covers up a continuing process of emotion in interpreting reality - IOW our emotions work semi-autonomously and so can compete or cooperate with reason/consciousness etc. (there are two sets of emotions, those we inherit from our primate nature, and those that develop with our consciousness)

Recent work in the study of Altzheimer's Disease has shown that exposure to sensory harmonics, colours and chords, contribute to memory but the memory PRIOR to labels, explicit manner - we have to move to the implicit.

In the disease the method of accessing the memory is lost so what they do now is expose the person to art and music and, low and behold, 'forgotten' memories return via the access to the realm of meaning prior to the spoken/written word etc. (our emotions are STRONGLY sensitive to sensory harmonics - colours and chords)

IOW there is an access route to meaning 'behind' consciousness/reason etc and the EmotionalIC accesses that path. So ... I suggest you try it out. It is 'vague' and so in need of refinement but it seems to work ok to reveal 'censored' or 'rationalised' material.

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/EmotionalIC.html (preamble)

or direct to:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/icplusEProact.html

The only issue for some of course is that this does not deal with 'divination - just basic dynamics of our being as we deal with reality - where a lot of that dealing is unconscious but through the metaphor that is the IC we gain access to that realm.

BTW - the unconscious process includes such concepts as 'blindsight' - look it up on Google. ;-)

Chris.

 

[jesed]

Hi Sinbaru

A quick comment

a) Hexagram 45 is in the past; tendential hex 7 is in the present, The Time for reunion (gathering together) has gone.

b) Both positions (answers b and c) are against reunion

c) The best thing to do is achieve a higher and more objecvtive understanding of the situation, to avoid get into emotional saturation.


It would be useful try Chris's Emotional IC suggestion

Best wishes

 

[sinbaru]

I agree with you that it's pretty dismal

b) and c) shows me a picture of two people at stand-off of some sort, not doing anything. c) is a picture of someone holding back his/her great possession. b) is someone not being able to push upward.

 

[sinbaru]

Emotional I CHing answer

I tried the Chris's emotional I Ching and the answer was 58.6 to 43. Any ideas about this answer?

 

[lightofreason]

Given these results, the emotions are describing the context as one focused on lust ;-) (BUT more on the change at the end)

58 covers bonding, sharing space with another/others with a focus on replication/mimcry and so the association with sexual love (and that can include narcissism as it can a 'show biz' like relationship, get others to replicate through fan support etc).

That said, the trigram of lake covers self-reflection literally and as metphor where one reflects on one's nature. The trigram in top position is self-reflection doubled and so a focus on intensity in expression.

43 covers spreading the word, aka seed - expansive bonding (intense expression) operating within expansive blending (to be 'one' by pouring outwards)

58 is cooperative. 43 is cooperative in a context that is competitive (robust, pushy).

all of that said, 58.6 does not give 43:

110110 -> 110111 is 10. 10 deals with issues of conduct, of being watched as one treads a path. It suggests being careful in one steps where we have "with self-reflection comes singlemindedness")

SO - if it is 10 then you have 58-10 indicating the intensity of expression of 58 is the context with 10 operating within that context (emerging from it if you like) - BOTH cover a focus on sexual attraction/love but that needs to be carefully done - 10 covers being watched, scrutinised from the sidelines of one's path.

Chris.

 

[sinbaru]

Jesed,

Somewhere on this forum you recommended asking for a picture of the situation between the two people in x amount of time. I asked for a picture of the relationship in 6 months and received 19.2.6 to 27. That suggests to me that things are going to improve substantially. At least I don't view that as a "Give up" message. I also asked "What does he feel when he thinks of me?" and the answer was 64.3 to 50. This sounds like a picture of something that's not over and of someone waiting for the right moment when things are in order to move. Would you care to comment?

 

[jesed]

Hi sinbaru

You can notice that in this thread i said:
Hexagram 45 is in the past; tendential hex 7 is in the present, The Time for reunion (gathering together) has gone

Now, you had posted a new question of diagnosis on your relationship... and the answer confirmed my iopinion. The relation is in a 7 situation.

Please read my comment on the new read.

Best wishes

 

[sinbaru]

Hi Jesed,

I should have been clearer. The 7 unchanging thread on the other board was not about this relationship. It was something I was asking for someone else.