...life can be translucent

Menu

Marriage customs in China (both ancient and modern) and hexagram 44

cal val

visitor
Joined
Apr 30, 1971
Messages
1,507
Reaction score
19
I don't believe I'm too terribly alone in being pretty much mystified by hexagram 44.

I understand that at the time the Yi was written, 900-800-ish BCE, when it came to marriage, the Chinese divined, sacrificed and watched for omens to determine whether a potential marriage would be suitable or not.

When the Chinese wrote the 10 wings (10 different commentaries on the ZhouYi) a few hundred years later, they included references to fate and the union of heaven and earth in hexagram 44 that didn't exist (at least 'on the surface') in the ZhouYi.

I understand that the practice of divining and watching for omens still exists today. And the custom of using matchmakers has existed at least until very recently... maybe even today. But from what time in history? And at point in history did the Chinese start entertaining the concepts of 'marriage of heaven and earth' and 'fated for each other (soul mates?)'. Recently I read a passage in Amy Tan's Joy Luck Club that got me thinking... since in one of my Virginia dreams the men in grey gave me a project involving the marriage of heaven and earth.

<blockquote>She [First Wife] and Wu Tsing had been joined in tyandi, heaven and earth, so theirs was a spiritual marriage arranged by a matchmaker, ordered by his parents, and protected by the spirits of their ancestors.</blockquote>She writes in other sections of the book that the matchmaker did the divining and watched the omens and decided the lucky day for the marriage based on the omens, etc.

I would love to learn more about marriage customs in China and their historical evolution. I would like to know (as much as possible) how marriage customs evolved from the time the Yi was written to the time the 10 wings were written, and I want to try to make an intelligent, informed quess as to how the references to fate and heaven and earth happend to be included in hexagram 44 in the 10 wings. It's pretty clear to me that the hexagram statement for 44 is from a divination made about a potential marriage, and the prognostication was that the marriage should not take place.

Is there any good resource material out there to help me in my research? Any thoughts on the illusive connection?

Thanks.

Love,

Val
 

cal val

visitor
Joined
Apr 30, 1971
Messages
1,507
Reaction score
19
I was just doing a google search to find as much as I could on 12.2. I get it whenever I tell the Yi I look forward to meeting someone new... that's after I've said to myself logic dictates (so much time has passed) that I will never see the one I want again.

And from google I found something very interesting on 12, an entry in Hilary's blog about the nonpeople in 12. It was so interesting, I went on to read the responses... and wouldn't know it! There's a response about 44 there by man named Ed Graham and he says, "I speak of hexagram 44 ?a bold and wilful woman- do not marry?. but lets not forget that timid men are seen as undesirable in the text also."

Has anyone ever read that in the text before? I haven't. But I find the possibility interesting... and hopeful. Could 44 be telling me this man the universe likes so much for me is shy?

Love,

Val
 

cal val

visitor
Joined
Apr 30, 1971
Messages
1,507
Reaction score
19
Or could 44 be speaking of a really powerful man? (I've been doing a process of elimination.)

Love,

Val
 

void

visitor
Joined
Jul 8, 1972
Messages
493
Reaction score
6
Hi Val, I told you I threw 12 yesterday - it was 12 lines 2 and 3(maybe the universe does love me afterall) Wondered what you made of 12, 2 to your question about what the Yi says when you say you are going to meet someone new ? It doesn't seem positive to me - I was asking about a relationship with someone - anyway wondered what your take on it was - I'm sure its something I never would have thought of, lol.

Re you always getting 44 with regard to this man..
I must be honest I'm kinda lost which is not so unusual for me...I'm taking it your're meaning the Yi has led you to believe the man who is your soul mate, whom you may not have met yet, is described by 44 ? Have I got that wrong ? Thats what I gathered from other threads anyway..

I'm afraid I have no useful insights to offer, I just wanted to clarify where you are..I thought the lack of responses here may be because others were confused like me (possibly ahem). Seems like you're trying to gather clues about the identity of the man ? Have I misunderstood what you are trying to figure from your repeated 44 responses ?
 

cal val

visitor
Joined
Apr 30, 1971
Messages
1,507
Reaction score
19
Hi Void...

I'm breaking this into two posts because of the nature of your questions... my thoughts on 12.2, and the story of the '44' man. And they're both going to be fairly long posts.

12.2

What I get (and I scoured and perused a lot of sources) is the common person in 12.2 is mediocre... ambitious but not imaginative nor very energetic... easily influenced because he seeks to follow the trend that is the common thread... and a sycophant really... enjoys success because he makes offerings to a superior, not because he, like the great man, pursues a vision with passion. The passage (by William H. Whyte, Jr., American born in 1917) in The Portable Dragon that describes the common person in line 12.2 is about the 'organization man' and pretty depressing:

<blockquote>"This... is about the organization man. If the term is vague, it is because I can think of no other way to describe the people I am talking about. They are not the workers, nor are they the white-collar people in the usual, clerk sense of the word. These people only work for The Organization. The ones I am talking about belong to it as well. They are the ones of our middle class who have left home, spritiually as well as physically, to take the vows of organization life, and it is they who are the mind and soul of our great self-perpetuating institutions..."</blockquote>The following, I believe, very well describes the great man and makes a very good comparison between him and the common person:

<blockquote>I know perfectly well that success is impossible for me if I cannot write as my heart dictates, free of any outside influence whatsoever, without having to keep in mind that I'm writing for Paris and not for the inhabitants of, say, the moon. Furthermore, the singers would have to sing as I wish, not as they wish, and the chorus, which, to be sure, is extremely capable, would have to show the same goodwill. A single will would have to rule throughout: my own. That may seem rather tyrannical to you, and perhaps it is. But if the work is an organic whole, it is built on a single idea and everything must contribute to the achievement of this unity. You may perhaps say that nothing stands in the way of all that in Paris. No! In Italy it can be done, or at least I can always do it; but in France: no. For example, if I come into the foyer of an Italian theater with a new work, no one ventures to utter an opinion, to pass judgment, before understanding everything thoroughly. And no one would even dare to make inappropriate requests. There is respect for the work and for the composer, and decisions are left to the public.

In the foyer of the Opera, on the other hand, everybody starts to whisper after the first four chords: Oh, ce n'est pas bon... C'est commun, ce n'est pas de bon gout... Ce n'ire pas a Paris. What do such pitiable words as commun... de bon gout... Paris mean, if you're dealing with a real work of art, which should belong to the whole world!

The conclusion from all this is that I'm no composer for Paris.

<font size="-1">GUISEPPE VERDI, ITALIAN (1813--1901)</font></blockquote>I think 12.2 is the rut of the common person, and I believe I'm being warned away from him. 12.2 changes to 6.

Love,

Val
 

cal val

visitor
Joined
Apr 30, 1971
Messages
1,507
Reaction score
19
The '44' man

I hesitate elaborating about him when I bring him up because the people who have been here for at least two and a half years have heard a lot of the story about him... much of it has already been posted here... probably far too much. But you've expressed confusion and curiosity, so I am more than happy to give a brief synopsis to you and anyone else who might be confused. The following is as brief a version about him as I can think of... because it's a very long story that goes back over 25 years ago:

I first saw this man in a prophetic dream in March of 1979. He may be a man I had started dating just before I had the dreams or he could be a man from the UK I met several years later. He might even be someone I haven't met yet. I don't know. I didn't see his face. I saw his profile and his dark hair and height as he walked beside me. At any rate, the dream had quite an impact on me. I knew it was prophetic when I woke as was the dream the next morning. I wrote them both down immediately upon waking.

The second one has already come true from beginning to end... when I went to the UK a few years ago to spend time with a man I'd fallen in love with... a man who tried to ask me to marry him. It came true there... when he tried to ask... and on the plane on the way home. And it was all very unpleasant. It was a very important lesson I had to learn about myself and that I didn't really understand until the 'men in grey' guided me to discover the root of my fear of marriage in dreams about two years ago. It was my fear of marriage that helped make the experience so unpleasant.

The first dream has been unfolding since three days before I left for the UK and is still unfolding. In the first dream, after several events (that have already transpired in real life), I was walking down a sloping path on a lawn and cracking a small whip and feeling really good about it... about my progress. This '44' man walked up beside me cracking a giant whip and was expert at it. It made a powerful sound when he cracked it. I felt terribly intimidated and told him so and that I was none too happy about it. He asked me if he could show me his trick as we started to walk under scaffolding and then again two more times. I told him No the first two times he asked... I'd seen his trick before "back there" and pointed back toward the direction from which I'd come.... The third time he asked we were headed back in that direction on the other side of the scaffolding, and I said okay...let's just get this over with... show me your trick. His trick was to wrap his whip around me and tie knots over and over... until I was wrapped from waist to neck... after which I woke feeling very content... a feeling that was rather foreign to me in those days.

I first started cracking my little whip in Virginia about two years ago. And I first saw the scaffolding and immediately recognized it as the same scaffolding as in my dream last year... a couple of days after I moved into my new home here in LA. It is in front of a very big and tall building that is being built around the corner from my home. They started construction at the same time I moved in. I'm confident that before that building is finished and the scaffolding comes down, I will be with the '44' man and at the very least engaged to be married... he will ask me if he can show me his trick... tying the knot.

I am not keen on seeing or being shown the future and I don't go to psychics, but everytime I start to lose my focus on this man of my dreams, it seems the universe sends me very dynamic reminders... some real zappers actually. About five years ago, after I was back in LA and about the same time I was giving up on the possibility of ever reconciling with the man in the UK again, I was approached by a woman my second day on a new job at another studio here in town. She said my travel vibe hit her hard as soon as I'd opened the door to the patio where she was sitting. And she motioned for me to sit down at the table with her. I didn't know her, and I stood there in shock, but the office manager who I had met the day before was sitting with her and also motioned me to sit down. She looked rather shocked as well.

The first woman (who it turned out was the President's assistant) then proceeded to read me. She picked up on people I knew, including and particuarly the man in the UK, not just phsyically but emotionally as well... and oh so accurately. She saw that I would feel intimidate by a man and said that I shouldn't. I don't know if it was the man in the UK or if he'd faded into someone else. They look much the same at any rate. She saw a new career for me... that was what she was supposed to tell me about, but she couldn't see what it was and said I would know it when I started into it. She said this man would help me achieve great success in the new career. She was especially curious about the career and spent a week after that following me around trying to see what it was but couldn't. She got very frustrated and angry by the end of the week.

The office manager told me later that first day that she'd never seen her approach anyone like she did me before, and so I'd better pay close attention to everything she said.

Then this last April we had a big party here at work when we moved into our new facility... an Open House... and for entertainment, the Marketing Department arranged for three psychics. At the end of the party when I was through playing hostess, I saw that one of the psychics' tables was empty. On a whim and very much expecting nothing more than a canned 'party' reading, I sat down. She immediately picked up on my experience with the 'men in grey', saw that I'm being guided, and her eyes got big and she really got into the reading. She saw the same thing the woman five years ago saw... the man, the career... except that she added this man and I are spiritually connected and that this would be a reunion after he got past his own fear which is no different really than mine (that the men in grey helped me get past). So...

Whenever I've felt lonely over the past few years, I've ask the Yi to tell me something about this man. I ask them to describe him... or to tell me what makes him so wonderful for me... or how will I recognize him... questions like that... and I always receive 44 no changes. That's why I'd like to know what it means. I want to know what they're saying about him.

LOL... Now... one novella later... did I make things less confusing? Or more?

Love,

Val
 
B

bruce

Guest
Val, you may not be receptive to this, but as I've said before, this man sounds like your yang or animus.

3. psychology woman's masculine side: in Jungian psychology, the masculine aspect of a woman's personality

[Early 19th century. < Latin, "mind, spirit"]
 

void

visitor
Joined
Jul 8, 1972
Messages
493
Reaction score
6
Hi Val, thanks for explaining everything, its much clearer now. Well its clearer to see what you're asking where you're coming from...I think.

Your relationship with the Yi is so different to anything I've come across or experienced myself, it really is. To me its quite fascinating. For example you say when you feel lonely you ask the Yi about this man, how you will know him, etc because you are so sure you will meet him - before the scaffolding comes down, because you've seen it in your dream already. There seems such innocence about this somehow, like a little girl trying to get a look at her xmas present before xmas. I don't mean to sound patronising by the way, not at all, it just makes me feel like a hard embittered old woman in comparison..I would believe it when I see it and not dare to ask before hand...expect nothing as self protection I guess. Its so interesting to me to see how someones mind can work so differently - probably theres much I could learn from you..meanwhile I gaze in wonderment lol..


Unfortunately I have nothing much to offer re you getting 44 all the time except it occurs to me the Yi may be saying in parental tones that you must stop trying to peek ahead to see whats in the package, beware the seduction of that, for what is coming may be so unexpected that you trying to prepare yourself may be counter productive. Maybe you should avoid any preconceptions of what this man might be like incase it clouds your vision - Hope you get some more clarification of it anyway....(wonder when the scaffolding will come down...?)
 

cal val

visitor
Joined
Apr 30, 1971
Messages
1,507
Reaction score
19
Hi Void...

Ooops. I guess I wasn't very clear above, and I did so hope to be. When I'm lonely I ask... which isn't very often... but it IS more often as I get older than it used to be. And it's about connecting with someone (in particular... hopefully) for the moment (of loneliness) even if it's not in the physical. It's not about looking at Christmas presents before Christmas Day.

And 44 comes up for more than those kinds of questions and it seems to all tie together when it does. My first question on this forum almost three years ago was "When will the waiting end" about being stuck in Virginia, and they answered 13 to 44. 13 to 44 does not relate in the least to what had to happend before I could leave Virginia. They were talking about something else altogether, and I'm pretty sure I know what that was... this man.

As to preconceptions of this man, I know without a doubt who I would like him to be. I'm open to and accepting the possibility that it's going to be someone else. But until I know who it is, I'm hoping against hope (at this point in time) that it's him. Although I know it will all be for the best whoever it is, I have no doubt if it's not him, it will be very much a bittersweet moment for me... and I'll deal with the pain then... IF I have to.

I've known approximately when the scaffolding is coming down since I realized it meant I was probably looking at a completion time. I asked one of the construction foremen. And I just looked it up online to confirm it. The date online is sooner than the foreman told me. It's not long now anyway.

Love,

Val
 

cal val

visitor
Joined
Apr 30, 1971
Messages
1,507
Reaction score
19
Hi Bruce...

You're right. I'm not receptive to the concept of A yin to a A yang. That's why I haven't responded.

Love,

Val
 

cal val

visitor
Joined
Apr 30, 1971
Messages
1,507
Reaction score
19
Speaking of how the universe works, I found this poem on the wall of the bus on my way to work this morning:

<blockquote>Scaffolding and Wind

The child showed what she
Learned in school today.
Guess what this is she said
Clapping both hands together
Over her father's head
And running her fingers
Down the sides of his face.
"An egg?" he said.
No, your heart.</blockquote>Great timing.

Love,

Val
 

void

visitor
Joined
Jul 8, 1972
Messages
493
Reaction score
6
Amazing and it was called Scaffolding and Wind !

There is some scaffolding near my house at present. Walking towards it yesterday, thinking absently of this and that, I noticed a slight lift in mood as I saw it - as if it were a portent of something good. Then I thought why on earth would I think that ? Then I realised I must have made some kind of neural connection between scaffolding and love, because of your story, lollol.. Actually as I got closer I noticed there was a rather good looking man doing some work underneath it...
 

freemanc

visitor
Joined
May 9, 1970
Messages
92
Reaction score
0
Val, if you run across material about your original query, ping me! Inquiring minds want to know!!

If you perform a ritual that is humble when you have great means, I guess that could mean you are a mediocre officer, a plodder. 12.2. Or is that a stretch?

Finally the line of thought about Scaffolding was quite lovely. I'm always glad when someone posts about seeing something in their ordinary life as a portent. This is to really think like a shaman. (Or an English major. ;))

very fondly,
FC
 

cal val

visitor
Joined
Apr 30, 1971
Messages
1,507
Reaction score
19
<center>
5433.jpg


seduction . temptation . magnetism . a passionate encounter . meeting halfway . coupling . sexual union</center>





(Stopped at Kinko's to scan this card from the Tao Oracle deck on my way to get my hair cut...and then on to a Clive Barker book signing...rushed. More on Monday...)
 

cal val

visitor
Joined
Apr 30, 1971
Messages
1,507
Reaction score
19
Hi Freeman...

Well so far I think the Book of Odes is probably my best source right now... so many of the songs are about marriage.

It looks like the practice of picking a lucky day dates back to the early Zhou... maybe... or at least to whenever Ode 236 was written.

<blockquote>He (Wen) had a bride from Shang,
a young cousin of Heaven.
Wen chose a lucky day
and met her at the River Wei,
building a bridge of boats -
it was a splendid sight.</blockquote>(It must have been a splendid sight indeed.)

So... Ive decided to collect bits from the Odes and see if I can't piece together a better understanding of marriage practices during the late Shang and early Zhou period. And any contributions will be greatly appreciated.

Love,

Val
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top