Master Alfred Huang 54 vs. 64

[Frankelmick]

Lise and everyone,

As far as I can tell, the last line of the judgement for both Hx 54 and Hx 64 is identical.

Both lines have the same 3 Chinese characters which Wilhelm translates as ?nothing that would further?.

But for Hx 64 Master Alfred Huang gives, ?nothing is unfavourable? whereas for Hx 54, Huang gives, ?nothing is favourable?.

I can only recognise a few Chinese characters but I think the first one expresses the negative. Is it pronounced ?bu?? The third character is ?li? which is the third of the four most auspicious situations given in the Hx 1 judgement.

My first thought was that there was a misprint in Alfred Huang?s edition but on page 397 he seems to reinforce his interpretation that there is nothing unfavourable in Hx 64.

Am I missing something? Any thoughts anyone?

Thanks very much and best wishes,

Mick

 

[heylise]

Xiong1 wu2 you1 li4
Xiong, pitfall, picture of someone praying in vain or distress
Wu, without, picture of a shaman dancing for rain
You, place, is an image of a man with a sounding stick. Often it is not translated. Personally I translate "ground": no ground for harvest.
Li, harvest or profit or further: image is wheat and a knife.

It looks as if Huangs "nothing UN-favourable" is a typo.
In 64 there is no xiong before " nothing that would further", maybe that makes a difference for Huang? Still I think his translation is not right.

LiSe

 

[bradford_h]

Mick-

You are right
In both cases it is Wu You Li,
not a direction with merit
or not a purpose that rewards
or not a plan with value

brad

 

[Sparhawk]

Joel Biroco IS Steve Marshall, although one seems saner than the other one...

Luis

 

[Sparhawk]

>>You mean the name or the person? ;-) <<

That's hard to say, but, what's in a name anyway??

>>Is it possible that *all* the reviewers for 'The Oracle' were Steve Marshall? ;-)<<

Nope, I have corresponded with Steve Moore before. He's quite a different person. Hmmm, I wonder where he is nowadays.... He is a great asset on any Yi related list.

>>Is it possible thar 'Master' Alfred Huang is really Steve Marshall? <<

Nope again. Mr. Marshall/Biroco doesn't hang the title of "Master" on his door. Not yet at least...

Luis

 

[Frankelmick]

LiSe/Bradford,

Thanks very much for confirming my limited understanding of Chinese characters.

My first thought was that "nothing is unfavourable" was a typing error in Alfred Huang's translation of the decision for Hx 64. It directly contradicts the commentary on the decision just below, where it says, "nothing is favourable".

But in discussing Hx 64, Huang talks about a time when the Zhou dynasty was like the fox crossing a stream, success was in store and nothing was unfavourable.

So here's a more general question. Do you see Hx64 as favourable or unfavourable?

I see Hx 64 as a positive situation. Like being involved in an organisation that's trying to work things out for the benefit of everyone. Or feeling hungry knowing that you're going to be going out for a lovely meal later.

I'd love to hear people's thoughts on Hx 64.

Best wishes,

Mick

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Mick,

You wrote:
>
> So here's a more general question. Do you see Hx64 as
> favourable or unfavourable?
>
> I see Hx 64 as a positive situation. Like being involved in
> an organisation that's trying to work things out for the
> benefit of everyone. Or feeling hungry knowing that you're
> going to be going out for a lovely meal later.
>
> I'd love to hear people's thoughts on Hx 64.
>

In relation to hexagram 63, hexagram 64 reflects 'sloppyness' as compared to the 'precision', the 'correctness', in 63, but in a context of more general meaning 64 reflects avoiding closure, a focus on remaining open.

The eranos text name is:

"WEI CHI -

WEI : temporal negative; incomplete, has not occured...

CHI : cross a river at a ford or shallow place; overcome an obstacle, embark on a course of action; help, relieve, cease. The ideogram: water and level, running smooth over a flat bottom."ERANOS p665

The ICPlus summary is "In hexagram 64 we realize that seeing the end of something can make one hasten and not watch their step, just as being at the beginning of something can make one look to the end and not watch where they are going. Things need to be done in correct order to succeed.

The image combined with the traditional title suggests that by not getting things in proper order (sequence), the successful completion of tasks is difficult and we thus need to set-out some sort of path/plan.

In a positive, cooperational, vain the hexagram also manifests keeping oneself 'open' as long as possible, avoiding closure recognising the emphasis on dependencies and so a lack of 'completeness' in that completion is an illusion."

We also have:

"In the binary sequence hexagram 64 pairs with hexagram 40.
This pairing reflects an overall focus on relaxed structure where the relaxation in 64 can lead to an 'error' occuring, and so an increase in tension, whereas relaxation in 40 leads to a release of tension.

In the binary sequence hexagram 64 opposes hexagram 63.
This pairing reflects the differences in (a) remaining open (64) vs (b) focusing on closure and 'correct' ordering (63).

At the LOCAL level we are dealing with an octet of hexagrams with the WATER trigram as base. In this sequence hexagram 29, the focus upon containment and control, 'opposes' hexagram 64, remaining 'open', 'mis-containing'. The issue here is on the degree, where 29 has a 'wide' boundary of yin/yang differentiations, it is clearly 'water', whereas 64 is tighter, more mixed in yin/yang differentiations where we have the opposite of water, fire, present in the top trigram position. As such, the exaggerated sense of avoiding closure/making 'small' errors, is reflected in a more balanced format through the use of containment/control. (this also gets into the issue of 'pure water' - 29 - versus water coming-up against fire (64). As such one would assume that the ordering is 'wrong', surely the exaggeration is in water vs the balanced of 64? no. as we move into the realm of integration so the exaggeration of a quality is in fact an exaggeration of integration and so 29 is correctly mapped to the more 'balancing', if becoming a little over-balancing, agent in this relationship)

...

In the traditional sequence hexagram 64 opposes hexagram 01.

This pairing of 01/64 reflects the absolute differences between pure/individual expression and mixed/group expression. As such, when compared to hexagram 01, hexagram 64 reflects incompleteness but also the benefits of remaining open and the overall sense of 'groupness', and so of mixing (reflected in the yin/yang line orderings as well).

The generic properties of hexagram 64 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 40 with the generic properties of hexagram 54.
A combination of relaxed structuring (40) combined with issues of immaturity (54) is reflected in issues of remaining open (avoid closure) and 'incorrect ordering'."

my 2c worth ;-)

Chris.

 

[gene]

I see hexagram 64 in one sense as a transition time. The great water is being crossed. But one is not finished with the crossing. This relates to the process in any activity as opposed to the goal. "The road is better than the inn" as Don Quixote would say. Here we are in the process. Not at the beginning, as in hexagram 3, or at the end, as in 63, but in the middle. The dangerous waters are being crossed, therefore we must maintain a cautious outlook as we go through the danger. Care must be taken all the way to the end.

Gene