Meister Ekhart experiment

[NemeanMagik]

Eye to I: please comment.

I was just following a talk on youtube where it was said that Meister Eckhart remarked on how as 'seekers' we miss the point that who is seeking is who is looking and we are One and the same being.

I asked I Ching to comment on this as I intended to see myself in this way.

The response from I Ching was Hexagram 20.4 > 12

Interesting that the secondary hexagram is 12, Blocked, as if in fact Heaven and Earth and not connected.

Anyone have anything to add on this issue of the 12 being the secondary hex, or indeed on the meaning of the reading itself?

 

[Tim K]

Do you mean seekers of God? And that by a mere fact of seeking we separate the seeker from his goal?

20.4 Says be a guest of a king. I see it as be aware of how your mind thinks, shift the awareness to an observer position, detach yourself from active thoughts (king, ruler, primary stream of consciousness).
And then the awareness of other entities, illusory boundaries, or the whole structure of things will come with time.

 

[Hujambo]

Bit of confirmation and humour?

...we miss the point that who is seeking is who is looking and we are One and the same being.

and

...I intended to see myself in this way.

I would interpret this reading as reflecting your current perspective on this idea/concept. Seems a bit confused to decide to accept the notion that there is no separation - by intending to see yourself this way - which implies separation between the seeker and the sought. If you have a bit of a look at the language you have employed you might notice that you haven't quite completed your exploration of these concepts, therefore making such a decision prematurely may not yield any results. I encourage you to contemplate from various perspectives, as Ashteroid has suggested, particularly with the primary hexagram 20.

 

[NemeanMagik]

thanks for your comment Hujambo.

I am not clear what you are saying here. But inevitably like me, you are using 'concepts' to explain your point...

I see this as being about non-duality and of course if we are going to post anything at all on Clarity we will become non-dual simply because we have to use language to communicate with each other on here.....I am not short of perspectives, in fact I have far too many - what I have lacked is the Overview....to me that is what this saying of Eckhart is pointing to...

I wish....

 

[NemeanMagik]

love your Avatar ashteroid!

thanks.

Yes, feels inspirational, and liberating.

 

[Hujambo]

I apologise NemeanMagik - I was referring to the intention to "see yourself" when it appeared the goal was to experience oneness. Just ignore me, I have a weird sense of humour. Best wishes to you.

 

[bradford]

You need to see things from multiple perspectives at the same time if you want true understanding.
"The eye through which I see the divine is the same eye through which the divine sees me." (M. Eckhart)

Please stop using "Blocked" or "Obstruction" as the name of 12. It's a horrible translation of Pi.
As long as you use it it will keep you from understanding the hexagram.

 

[canislulu]

Perhaps folks on this website use "Obstruction" for hexagram 12 because that it is called in Wikiwing and Hilary uses "Blocked" in her translation. Wilhelm uses "Standstill (Stagnation). Bradford, I note that you call it "Separating", which is indeed quite different from blocked or obstructed. Can you tell us more about why that is a better way of translating Pi?

 

[bradford]

Perhaps folks on this website use "Obstruction" for hexagram 12 because that it is called in Wikiwing and Hilary uses "Blocked" in her translation. Wilhelm uses "Standstill (Stagnation). Bradford, I note that you call it "Separating", which is indeed quite different from blocked or obstructed. Can you tell us more about why that is a better way of translating Bi?

Meant to write Pi. The model is heaven and earth moving in opposite directions. They aren't opposing, blocking or fighting each other - that's a major form of interaction and the whole point is that there is no interaction and therefore no synergy. It's the negation of turning or going away. Blocked is Gua 39.
These are the dictionary definitions I found for Pi
pi3 1902 999e 30+4 07.1 (to be) inferior, wrong, worthless, decaying, bad, stagnant, stagnating, disintegrating, alienated, inappropriate; (to) deny, refuse, stop, negate, disapprove (of), separate (from) (s, ed, ing); on the contrary; not, if not, or not, not do; (a, the) standstill, stagnation, separation, disintegrity, negation, denial,, incoherence; [entropy]; what is not so; not, wrong; ap fou3: to not be, if not, if out of

 

[NemeanMagik]

Meant to write Pi. The model is heaven and earth moving in opposite directions. They aren't opposing, blocking or fighting each other - that's a major form of interaction and the whole point is that there is no interaction and therefore no synergy. It's the negation of turning or going away. Blocked is Gua 39.
These are the dictionary definitions I found for Pi
pi3 1902 999e 30+4 07.1 (to be) inferior, wrong, worthless, decaying, bad, stagnant, stagnating, disintegrating, alienated, inappropriate; (to) deny, refuse, stop, negate, disapprove (of), separate (from) (s, ed, ing); on the contrary; not, if not, or not, not do; (a, the) standstill, stagnation, separation, disintegrity, negation, denial,, incoherence; [entropy]; what is not so; not, wrong; ap fou3: to not be, if not, if out of

thanks Bradford.
Can you say in what sense the context of my original question to I ching is 'Separated'? Is it simply the opposite to my answer of Eye to Eye - so that in receiving the answer there was the experience of Union? Also, the looking at something from many angles....it seems to me that although the One might embrace the many, there is not in the final analysis a view that can be anything other than unified..or from the One to the One...?

 

[bradford]

I'll try.
12 is the zhi gua of 20.4. The image is of taking and then combining perspectives that are very far apart- the view from within the palace, as guest of the king, and the more familiar view from the kingdom outside it, from the road and outlying farms. You might even compare it to the reverse of Buddha's experience when he first left his sheltered world and experienced the "real" outer world with no small degree of horror. Both of these really stretch the perception by taking widely separated points of view. Integrating a mystic like Elkhart into the way you see things is a stretch like this. It can be a perspective that challenges even our humanity, but at the least it gives us a changed and larger world to live in. The fan yao 12.4 has proved a challenging line to translate, but I finally settled on: "Having higher purpose is not a mistake. But this kind of thing differs from happiness." It takes you places others don't go and fewer people can relate to that. As to knowing the one, it doesn't blend points of view into one - it adds diversity, depth and texture, and makes the one bigger and more interesting than you might have expected.

 

[NemeanMagik]

Thanks very much Bradford. Now I understand the point of Hexagram 12 as the context, and why it is to be seen as meaning 'separated', not blocked. This creates a very different meaning and is much clearer.

I suppose 'heaven moving away from earth' results in 'no fruition', no intercourse, and this is where the idea of stagnation or blockage comes from? A kind of 'impotence'?

But the interpretation that heaven and earth 'separate', which means a lack of frisson, reduces vitality...potential....essential 'life'?

A very satisfying explanation.

"It can be a perspective that challenges even our humanity" ---This is my stumbling block. The idea that to fully embrace everything means to accept Reality even in terms of the worse case scenarios....when I want to recoil and say 'NO', that cannot be....

 

[NemeanMagik]

View attachment 1506

 

[canislulu]

The fan yao 12.4 has proved a challenging line to translate, but I finally settled on: "Having higher purpose is not a mistake. But this kind of thing differs from happiness."

I LOVE this. It makes me smile and laugh in a pleasant way.

NemeanMajik, I cannot open your attachment for some reason. (By the way, thank you for posting this interesting thread.)

 

[NemeanMagik]