Memorizing Hexigram 17. Sui / Following

[luz]

Plus, I still can not see how Modesty attracts a following

 

[dobro p]

It only happens when the following is discerning enough to appreciate the modesty of the person being followed. And of course, it's always a modest following.

Best kind of following, IMO.

 

[rosada]

Thanks for understanding me Bruce! Well maybe it would make sence that there would be some opposition expressed at this point. Perhaps this Hexagram is about conciously choosing to go with the flow, even though other paths are available.

(BTW, creating a story out of a random order of the hexagrams sounds like fun journey. Maybe when this 64 Hexagram journey is done - or before if someone else wants to make it their thing - we'll create a story that somehow progresses as the result of a random toss. Like the first person to dial in each morning does a toss and this will be the group line for the day and we can comment on it just as we are doing here with the standard order. But that seems kinda advanced, like I think it would be good to go through the hexagrams as we are at least once first.)

So what is "Following" energy? I think of 17 as "Adapting" surrendering, free fall.
16. Enthusiasm is the definition of energy that goes beyond the (15.) mean. It has gone up. But what goes up must come down so the next evolution is 17 a feeling of falling. Thunder, the lightening, the energy, falls to earth, returns to it's source of origin. Goes to sleep?
Also just when something is falling it is blown about by all the outside influences, I've found Following is very erratic energy and on a "17 day" I've found I make decisions I then need to change, but even though it's hard for 17 to chart a streight course, it seems things work out fine. one is supported by events, one needs just go with the flow. Could 17. symbolize exercises like tai chi?

Thinking about Thunder as falling to earth but landing in Lake, Joy, and thus falling beneath the Lake. After a full day, man falling asleep, yet Conciousness awake in dream land? A hypnotic suggested implanted in the accepting unconcious?

 

[toganm]

Could 17. symbolize exercises like tai chi?

It could as in Tai Ji Quan, one needs to yield and connect. Yield (Follow) is the yin part and connect is the yang part.

The main issue with yielding or following is doing too much and and getting ahead of the opponent. The idea is to let the other person to go where he is trying to go but if one resists, denying self the energy needed to use against the opponent and actually provide an opportunity to be used against self.

Connecting is also important as if one does too little and lose track of the others tendency then it is difficult to follow.

There has to be an interplay between yin/yang empty and full so the chain of cause and effect could continue

Hope this helps
Togan

 

[dobro p]

Indeed not. Only at Clarity...

17 may have currents running just as deep, just as far from conscious awareness (the thunder in the lake like a power of initiative well below the reflective surface), but it's trustworthy.

Yes, trustworthy. But you can trust what you find in 18 too, you just need the courage to look at it in order that you can have the power to let go of it.

17's probably more dangerous than 18 actually, cuz you know you can trust what's deep in 17 and so you're more likely to lull yourself into not paying attention.

 

[heylise]

We humans have no idea what following means, really...

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9......

 

[stevev]

We humans have no idea what following means, really...

is who’s going to lead, in any case what will we do with all the spare mental capacity if we don’t fill it with argument ?

17. Following

I really got nothing from Wilhelm’s rendition of the Confucian social engineering experiment, but Bradford’s got some nice words.

“A sage adapts gladly and follows his tastes: when hungry he eats, when tired he sleeps. Which direction will he take as his own? The one which finds the right place at just the right time. He may pause to ask for directions and allow the whole world to show him the way. Nothing is surrendered here. Following leaders or following prey, if he follows his own best interest, this will show him his way.”

 

[luz]

It only happens when the following is discerning enough to appreciate the modesty of the person being followed. And of course, it's always a modest following.

Best kind of following, IMO.

You are right. I was looking at it from a 'follow the leader' point of view. While modesty (if that is the meaning of the hexagram anyway) might be a nice quality in a leader, it just didn't strike me as one that creates following. But there are many other kinds of following, of course.

 

[rosada]

Delightful picture, heylise! Looks like an interesting site, too.

Toganm, Thank you for the thoughts on Tai Ji Quan! It certainly does help.

 

[rosada]

The Lines

16.1
* Nine at the beginning means:
The standard is changing.
Perseverance brings good fortune.
To go out of the door in company
Produces deeds.

There are exceptional conditions in which the relationship between leader and followers changes. It is implicit in the idea of following and adaptation that if one wants to lead others, one must remain accessible and responsive to the views of those under him. At the same time, however, he must have firm principles, so he does not vacillate where there is only a question of current opinion. Once we are ready to listen to the opinions of others, we must not associate exclusively with people who share our views or with members of our own party; instead we must go out and mingle with all sorts of people, friends or foes. That is the only way to achieve something.
-Wilhelm

 

[martin]

17.1 Mars in Aries or in the first house, Venus in Libra or in the seventh house.

Both planets in one of their own signs/houses, where they can manifest in their pure form.
One would expect a certain polarisation here, a heightened awareness of their difference. The difference between me and you or we, between expressing and asserting oneself and listening, communicating, cooperating.
It's easier to find a balance between the two when we are aware of their difference.
Fits quite well with Wilhelm's comment on this line, I think.

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 17.1

Line 1
"If a belief seems to be fading it implies that something about it is no longer appropriate to the times. An imbalance has occurred. This is rectified by going out amongst the people to discover where the change has occurred and thus restoring its life."

with/from following (17) comes congregating (45 - congregating together with others regarding a belief system)

From XOR, 45 describes by analogy the 24-ness of 17 and reflects a new beginning or a re-beginning, what 17 keeps coming back to. What is covered in the line comment is the need to re-invent the belief (return to its beginnings, add more energy, 'new' life) when it runs out of steam. This also reflects not just the belief but one's own attitudes where they may need questioning and'/or a 'reset' - a change of 'light' etc

The thunder base of 17 covers issues of sharing time with another/others (expansive binding). The lake top covers issues of sharing space with another/others (expansive bonding). For line position 1, operating within this 17 context is 45 to express the sense of 'new' belief issues and moving into a crowd.

This focus on a crowd is repeated in 25 (that shares space with 17) but there the exchange is more competitive than cooperative - we stand up in a crowd regardless of consequences to assert our opinion etc whereas in 17 we are open to those of others; the overall passion is intense but contributing to the 'new' context that comes with some form of enlightenment (or RE-enlightenment) and seeking of 'more'.

trigrams:
17 - with/from enlightenment comes intensity in expression
45 - with/from devotion to another comes intensity in expression

as 12 is the 'mud' of 17, so 25 is the 'mud' of 45. We can thus link these to give us the 'mud' of 17.1 to be 25 from 12 and so a generic sense of protecting beliefs in a context of competing beliefs (competitiveness of 12) out of which comes issues of a generic sense of assertion of a particular belief. In both 12 and 25 is the presence of singlemindedness and a competitive 'edge'.

The source of nourishment is identified by linking that of 17 - 34, a focus on being invogorated/invigorating - with that of 45 - 32, a focus on commitment.

Thus the source that binds the 'mud' of 17.1 is described by analogy to commitement developing within a context of invigoration.

Chris.

 

[rosada]

Random thoughts..
Okay, astrological similarities with 17. Following. Well, I see Mars in Aries/ Venus in Libra as representing a unique point of view, Mars, that is totally accepted by the surrounding energies, Venus - just as an object is accepted by water when it it falls into a Lake. And that sence of not competing. Like when we were discussing various takes on the hexagram order, it seemed we were getting clearer about people's ideas and it didn't matter if we differed. In fact, I had the aha moment of realizing that if I could acknowledge there were other viewpoints, and not feel threatened by them, it released a lot of energy for me to use in clarifying my own.

More random thoughts..
"The standard is changing" The energies are not building, but waning. I'm thinking of Geese flying south for the winter and the changing of the guard as the first lead goose gets tired. All the Geese are Equal (15. modesty) but the one most able to visualize reaching the goal (16. enthusiasm), will just naturally find himself in the lead position. As the demands of the time change, the Lead Goose may press onward held aloft by the enthusiasm of others (see 16.5) but ultimately we all fall out of sinc with the vision and wake up/ fall to earth (16.6).

After the 16 minutes of fame are over, the lead goose can now fall back and float on the group energy, 17.1, while some other bird takes the lead.

After reading Chris' post, I'm now thinking of 17.1 as the Leader now falling back, like a general (In some decks, the tarot card for Aries is a general) having dinner in the enlisted men's messhall, with his eyes open to see what's going on, what's needed so he can direct the flock rightly when it's his turn to lead again.

 

[rosada]

After studying this line and writing about it a bit I'm thinking that I orginally was off track seeing 16 - 17 as meaning Enthusiasm ATTRACKS a Following as in the idea that if one is enthusiastic others will gather round. Rather, I think the connection is that Enthusiasm eventually burns out and must Follow - connect with? - the universal flow.

 

[dobro p]

It could also be that Enthusiasm doesn't burn out, but rather that its energy takes you far enough or high enough or 'intense' enough so that you encounter that which is worthy of being Followed. Kind of a breakthrough to a sense of purpose and direction which was there all the time waiting for you if only you'd ramped up enough energy to access it. Which you do with Enthusiasm. One instance of this principle would be 'when the student is ready, the teacher appears'.

Not that I believe the sequence of the hexagrams is either valid or useful - I'm just trying to help you out lol.

 

[lightofreason]

After studying this line and writing about it a bit I'm thinking that I orginally was off track seeing 16 - 17 as meaning Enthusiasm ATTRACKS a Following as in the idea that if one is enthusiastic others will gather round. Rather, I think the connection is that Enthusiasm eventually burns out and must Follow - connect with? - the universal flow.

The evidence suggests that the traditional sequence was derived from self-referencing of a particular quality (or more so a pair representing that quality). Thus the odd numbers pair with the next even number, not the previous.

Thus 15,16 and 17,18. It is this larger PAIR that then forms a relationship or more so the general quality of 15+16 with the general quality of 17+18

(in the binary order we have, for example, 02,23 08,20 and so the 'devotion' of the pair of 02/23 pairs with the 'attraction' of the 08/20 pair - you can see the subtle difference in the generic sense of devotion that is unconditional in general, with the generic sense of attraction that presents a degree of hesitation, I am attracted, not devoted. Zoom in on each and 02 is unconditional, 23 conditional, 08 unconditional, 20 conditional. And then 02,23 is unconditional, 08,20 is conditional.

This group then forms a vaguer quartet made up of the 'devotion' and 'attraction' to pair with a quartet made up of 16,35 and 45,12 where THIS quartet is more 'differentiating' than the other quartet. - thus 02,23,08,20 is unconditional, 16,35,45,12 conditional.)



The traditional numbers form an octet pattern, each octet formed from four pairs and each octet reflects a vague sense of core meaning:

01,02,03,04,05,06,07,08 purity issues (01-08 oppose)
09,10,11,12,13,14,15,16 gain issues (09-16 oppose)
17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24 belief issues (17-24 oppose)
25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32 involvement issues (25-32 oppose)
---------------------------------
33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40 tension release issues (33-40 oppose)
41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48 foundation issues (41-48 oppose)
49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56 loyalty issues (49-56 oppose)
57,58,59,60,61,62,63,64 mixing issues (57-64 oppose)

The indication is the names on the ROWS top down apply to the COLUMNS left to right.
(01 covers purity in purity, 02 gain in purity, 03 beliefs purity, 04 involvement in purity, 05 tension release in purity, 06 foundation setting in purity, 07 loyalty issues in purity, 08 mixing issues in purity (group focus)

Chris.

 

[rosada]

Thanks for the "help" dobro! Very appropriate to be sharing some at line 17.1!

In this talk about the signifcance of the sequence I think of these studies that have been done on birth order. The idea is that there are definite characteristics common to first borns and differing traits common to seconds, thirds.

Also in this discussiion of the order of the hexagrams and how one hex can lead to any other, it occurs to me that perhaps we leap over intervening hexagrams as we go from one to the next. For example, if you were to discribe your day you might say,
15. It was just another day.
16. I lived it it to the max.
17. When night came I was ready to sleep.

Or you could discribe it this way,
15. It was just another day.

ya-da ya-da

17. When night came I was ready to sleep.

Like you could just skip mentioning, noticing, the line 16 experience and think you'd gone from 15 to 17 when 16 was there, you just didn't respond to it.


I think it's interesting we use the term "centered" when we talk about how one should be in life. This gives a different visual than when we say the "middle path". When we talk about "the middle path" I get an image of a person walking down a road staying in the middle so as not to be distracted, pulled to the left or right, yet still it appears there is only one way forward. However when we say "centered" as in being in the middle of a circle or wheel, there are an infinite number of ways one can go just as there can be an infinite number of spokes to the wheel. Perhaps this is why it is not possible to predict the future. When a conciousness is "centered" in the "now" all futures are possible, just as all hexagrams are available.

 

[dobro p]

I think it's interesting we use the term "centered" when we talk about how one should be in life. This gives a different visual than when we say the "middle path". When we talk about "the middle path" I get an image of a person walking down a road staying in the middle so as not to be distracted, pulled to the left or right, yet still it appears there is only one way forward. However when we say "centered" as in being in the middle of a circle or wheel, there are an infinite number of ways one can go just as there can be an infinite number of spokes to the wheel. Perhaps this is why it is not possible to predict the future. When a conciousness is "centered" in the "now" all futures are possible, just as all hexagrams are available.

It's more than that - when you're centered, you are so in the moment of now that you realize it's the only moment that is - the future doesn't exist, it's an illusion - you see it, you know it, you *are* it. Being centered means living out of your core or essence or depth, whereas the middle way means balance and avoiding extremes and black-and-white thinking. IMO

 

[rosada]

17.2

Six in the second place means:
If one clings to the little boy,
One loses the strong man.

In friendships and close relationships an individual must make a careful choice. He surrounds himsself either with good or bad company, he cannot have both at once. If he throws himself away on unworthy friends he loses connection with people of intellectual power who could further him in the good.
-Wilhelm

People might want to also look at LiSe's insight into this line.

 

[hilary]

About Following and being in the moment - the zagua says it means being 'without previous causes', or something like that. (It uses the same word of 55, which is said to have a lot of them!) So no rationalising, no digging, just integrating yourself into where you are. I think.

17.2 is one of those lines where Yi adds no value judgements, and commentators more than make up for it. Even Stephen K calls the small son a 'mistake' and 'the wrong influence to follow'. Well, it might be, but I think Yi is simply offering a choice - sometimes about whom to associate with, sometimes about which role to adopt. (You're either the responsible adult in your life, or you're not.)

 

[martin]

17.2 Mars in Taurus (or house 2), Venus in Scorpio (8)

Mars below (or 'in') Venus and also in a Venus sign/house becomes very Venusian. Submerged in "the life of the senses". Venus in Scorpio is also very sens-ual.

One would not expect to see much of the "strong man" (pure Mars) when Mars is so Venusian. The image of a "little boy" (who still has something feminine) fits such a Mars well.
And seeking pleasure, fun, etcetera, is that what the IC decribes as "following the little boy"?

In any case, this is a "young" Mars.

 

[Trojina]

I think it's interesting we use the term "centered" when we talk about how one should be in life. This gives a different visual than when we say the "middle path". When we talk about "the middle path" I get an image of a person walking down a road staying in the middle so as not to be distracted, pulled to the left or right, yet still it appears there is only one way forward. However when we say "centered" as in being in the middle of a circle or wheel, there are an infinite number of ways one can go just as there can be an infinite number of spokes to the wheel. Perhaps this is why it is not possible to predict the future. When a conciousness is "centered" in the "now" all futures are possible, just as all hexagrams are available.

Yes exactly, precisely ! And following might be about finding ones way back to the centre, not following any leader down a straight path.

 

[lightofreason]

Perhaps this is why it is not possible to predict the future. When a conciousness is "centered" in the "now" all futures are possible, just as all hexagrams are available.

which is what focusing on the question is about. Using the Q/A method the focusing is implicit in that it asks about properties of the situation and so what the question refers to. What THAT does is sort the hexagrams into a 64-hexagram sequence from best-fit to worst-fit and so is more consistant in getting the best-fit when compared to random/miraculous methods that can get the best-fit but not consistantly... unless you are a believer in super-determinism! ;-)

Chris.

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 17.2

Line 2
"A belief is not necessarily eternal. Times change influencing one's experiences. For the individual to develop, a belief may need to be replaced by another, richer one. To hold on to the past gets one nowhere."

with/from following comes Self-reflection (intensity in expression, passion etc) - the focus here is on refinement, there is always a need to 're-invent' where looking in the mirror is more about how to improve one's look and so replace manifestations of the influence of time, the 'past' and so issues of aging - we want to keep the youth image etc.

As we are all aware from show-biz, some age gracefully, others try to hide it and we are surprised by their eternal youth (their updates have been successful) but that holding on to the past, that seeking of eternal youth, ends up looking very 'messy', artificial etc and often the growing old gracefully, and so adapting to the aging, is of more benefit over the long term.

Ideas that are followed over centuries, millenia also need to keep up with the times.

 

[rosada]

Had one of those fun moments where the I Ching seems to exactly fit. I was visiting my neighbor boys. Our visit had just begun when my husband came by and asked if I wanted to go into town. Nope! I wanted to cling to my little guys even though it meant losing the strong man (and the best kung pao chicken in Hood River, darn it). Philosophically though, in this incident I was letting go of "the little boy", my opportunity to go out and play, and keeping "the strong man", my commitment to keep an eye on the boys while their mother was out milking the goats.

 

[mudpie]

I really like Chris' reasonable, and readable, post about 17.2
I never quite saw in 17.2 and 17.3 in terms of trying to hold onto the past or youth physically vs letting oneself assume the new form. I always remember how audrey Hepburn looked as she aged, so gracefully beautiful and inhabiting new roles (in real life, Unicef ambassador e.g.). When one accepts one's aging with grace, it is as if the human form takes on a new radiance unrelated to chronological age.
Cher, on the other hand, tends to look frozen in time.

Maybe 17.2 will now become the "botox" line. No judgement from the Yi, of course, but it kinda leaves you wondering. I mean how cool would Cher look with laugh lines, crow's feet and gray hair swept up in a bun? I think she 'd look outrageous. Then again, maybe a little 17.2 is helpful. A little nip and tuck in the eyes never hurt anyone and some hair transplants wouldnt hurt donald trump either. Nah, scratch that. His swept-over do is REALLY 17.2. In such a case Bald is beautiful. and it really is. I love bald men.I'll add that to my notes for 17.3

 

[bruce_g]

I love bald men.I'll add that to my notes for 17.3

I can see Luis now, shaving.

 

[Sparhawk]

I can see Luis now, shaving.

Hey, Listener, aren't you a Latina? Hmmm, if she's of an age close to mine, most likely she doesn't mind baldness and wouldn't mind a Sean Connery look elsewhere. Good, I only have to shave my head!!

L

 

[rosada]

17.3

Six in the third place means:
If one clings to the strong man,
One loses the little boy.
Through following one finds what one seeks.
It furthers one to remain persevering.

When the right connection with distinguished people has been found, a certain lose naturally ensues. A man must part company with the inferior and superficial. But in his heart he will feel satisfied, because he will find what he seeks and needs for the developement of his personality. The important thing is to remain firm. He must know what he wants and not be led astray by momentary inclinations.
-Wilhelm

 

[bruce_g]

Hey, Listener, aren't you a Latina? Hmmm, if she's of an age close to mine, most likely she doesn't mind baldness and wouldn't mind a Sean Connery look elsewhere. Good, I only have to shave my head!!

L

laughin.. yer bad man.