Memorizing the I Ching 23. Po / Splitting Apart

[bruce_g]

When ya ain't got nothin' ya ain't got nothin' ta lose. Dylan

But so long as we're holding on, there's going to be something that needs letting go of.

 

[hollis]

All through that thread I didn't think anyone was actually going to Bali, I thought Bali had been bought up to simply illustrate a point. Ah so Hollis is really thinking of going to Bali, ah I get it - or do I This whole conversation here feels more 38 than 23, misunderstandings abound.

You were right Trojan. Bali is not the destination, never was. But I sure am thinking about it now.

 

[rosada]

Dear Friends,

What can I say? You guys are the best. Thank you so much for your patience, your gentle loving persistance in getting me to dare to keep talking, to finally see there were only misunderstandings, and nothing to fear. I feel like I'm waking up out of a coma, not just here on the board, but in my life.

Thank you,
Rosada

 

[Trojina]

 

[bruce_g]

Would you like coffee or tea with that coma toast?

 

[RindaR]

Rosada:

Rinda

 

[Sparhawk]

I feel like I'm waking up out of a coma, not just here on the board, but in my life.

Thank you,
Rosada

I'd prescribe some dark chocolate and a vacation... It may not fix any problems you may have, but it would feel good.

L

 

[rosada]

 

[rosada]

24.4
Six in the fourth place means:
The bed is split up to the skin.
Misfortune.

Here the disaster affects not only the resting place but even the occupant. No warning or other comment is added. Misfortune has reached its peak: it can no longer be warded off.

The trigram K'un below represents the bed, the resting place. The trigram Ken above represents the person resting. Here the splitting apart spreads from the resting place to the person resting on it; therefore misfortune is directly at hand.
-Wilhelm

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 23

Line 3
"An individual feels that the situation is wrong. He withdraws without fault."

line position 3 is ruled by hexagram 15. Thus the 15-ness of 23 is described by analogy to characteristics of 52 - covering being blocked, stopping, and the use of quality control.

Line 4
"The tie between the individual and the tradition is broken, it's heart revealed." - reducing the place of rest (our beliefs, the 'light') to its essentials by the use of flesh and as such the coverings rather than focusing on the structure which the coverings enclose, i.e. the bones, is doomed to failure.

line position 4 is ruled by hexagram 16. Thus the 16-ness of 23 is described by analogy to the characteristics of hexagram 35. The push to bring something into the light can be too focused on the superfiscial - foresight/planning misguided? Our pruning can be too 'lite'.

 

[thedave]

23 - (bo) - Skinning

I'm looking at the Chinese characters, and while I'm no expert in the language, the sentance seems to say this: (Yes I'm trying to translate the Yi from the Chinese despite never having done it before so advice would be awesome. )

Skinning
There is no benefit, so depart.

Yes, it is the opposite of almost every other translation I look at. The sentance is comprised of 5 characters. The first three characters make up the phrase, "no advantage to exist, to have", the 5th character is, "To move toward something." Now the thing that gets me is the fourth character is "xiong", which means, "Thus, that which". So the whole sentance seems to say, "No advantage to exist, thus move toward something." Its the presence of the "thus" character that confuses me about this translation. If the situation calls for "splitting apart" wouldn't it be beneficial to depart?
Anyone read chinese?

As for the lines, this whole "bed" talk is confusing to me. What significance does a "bed" have in ancient china, and what is so symbolic about stripping it?

23.4 -

Skinning the bed with the skin. Evil.

Throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

 

[lightofreason]

PO : flay, peel skin; remove, uncover, degrade, split, slice; reduce to essentials; slaughter an animal. The ideogram : knife and carve, trenchant action."

Overall, when considered with its opposite, 43, the focus is covered in the concept of Pruning (as compared to 43 that covers seeding, spreading the word, sending out cuttings etc)

The bed serves as metaphor for our beliefs - what we 'rest' upon.

To understand structure of hexagrams etc, use the binary sequence. Focus attention of these pairs:

02,23
23,43

and then, if you want to understand the full spectrum of meaning in 23, the XOR material (line meaning section of:http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x100000.html )

Chris.

 

[Trojina]

Dave I agree with your translation, its how I've always taken 23,3 and in my life thats how its always played out. I think the letting go is easier in this line than in the others at least less painful as it appears to be more ones own decision. Feels more empowering to walk away or strip away something yourself than to have it taken from you I guess.

 

[Trojina]

Can't help noticing how where we are here is fitting into the story of Christs crucifixion and resurrection. For me its incredibly apt, the painful process of being stripped of everything including dignity and reputation till there is only the essential left and carrying the fruit in line 6 even past death over for the return in 24. I think we are due to reach 24 on Easter day.

 

[bruce_g]

Dave, don't know if you're familiar with LiSe's work yet. http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/hex_17-32/hex_e_23.htm

Very helpful stuff there.

Trojan, from the spiritual (a word I'm not especially comfy with) side of things, I see it the same way.

 

[rosada]

23.5
Six in the fifth place means:
A shoal of fishes. Favor comes through the court ladies.
Everything serves to further.

Here in immediate proximity to the strong, light giving principle at the top, the nature of the dark force undergoes a change. It no longer opposes the strong principle by means of intrigues but submits to its guidance. Indeed, as the head of the other weak lines, it leads all of these to the strong line, just as a princess leads her maids -in-waiting like a shoal of fishes to her husband and thus gains his favor. Inasmuch as the lower element thus voluntarily places itself under the higher, it attains happiness and the higher also receives its due.
-Wilhelm

 

[Sparhawk]

23.5
Six in the fifth place means:
A shoal of fishes. Favor comes through the court ladies.
Everything serves to further.

No few dynasties and emperors have risen or fallen because of, or abetted by, the "court ladies." In the end, it is a zero-sum game: if somebody wins, it means another one lost. A good example of "stripping," even when presented with a positive bias. It is using the power of "stripping" to your own advantage; seizing the opportunity and having a chance to turn the tables.

L

 

[rosada]

In view of the insights I've received here this week I am interpreting 23 as the experience of old belief systems falling apart in light of new awareness. I'm seeing 22. Grace as having been a moment of Grace, where one had the chance to momentarily experience a very pleasant life situation. This moment, in my case, the recent month I spent in Pasadena feeling unconditionally loved, was so blissful, I must have at some level signaled I'd was ready to grow beyond my old comfort zone/bed, of seeing life as somewhat hard and cold, in order to live in this new reality of being loved. The first sign of the impending changes, the losening of the grip of old narrow beliefs came for me when I once again interpreted various signals by the old belief system, that is, as signs I was being unappreciated..

23.1 Not getting the usual responce. The old routine can not be counted on. The old bed no longer supports. What does this mean? Secret enemies or simple paranoia? Changing to 27, speak up.

23.2 The connection between Mind and Manefestation are so out of sync one feels totally isolated and alone. Old ways don't work, new path not yet clear..

23.3 No longer stubbornly standing by former opinions that have proven to be erroneous, one responds to a higher truth, although old habits may die hard.

23.4 The former beliefs are so out of sync with Today's Understanding they no longer in anyway supported by one's new awareness. The outer world collapses, is inner truth strong enough to survive? Hmm..I'm struck by what a really awful sounding fate this line implies, and yet the fourth place is part of the upper trigram and I think of the upper trigram as being heaven and the lower trigram as being earth. So although line 23.4 sounds catastrophic, perhaps one's conciousness has moved up, is no longer attached to the old ego and thus the shedding of the old skin is not so painful. I think of the Irish toast, "May you be in Heaven a half hour before the Devil knows you're dead."

23.5 Having survived the total distruction of all our previous assumptions, the Universe now appears to be a totally different than what we had previously thought. This new awareness, New Conciousness, could be represented as The Husband and the Princess is the Unconcious now aligning with the new husband/belief system and all past experiences, "hand maidens", are also now reinterpreted in light of the new insight.

For example, before an election, newspapers will make all kinds of predictions, but after the votes are counted the pundits talk like they'd accurately predicted the one outcome all along.

P.S. I really like trojan's suggestion that we could bring our study into sync with Easter. If there are no objections, I am going to pick up the pace abit and post 23.6 tomorrow and hex.24 on Sunday.

 

[thedave]

Dave, don't know if you're familiar with LiSe's work yet. http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/hex_17-32/hex_e_23.htm

Very helpful stuff there.

Trojan, from the spiritual (a word I'm not especially comfy with) side of things, I see it the same way.

Yes, I found it through this site. I usually check LiSe's site before I check my Wilhelm! Karcher is still my main man though. But yeah, LiSe's commentary is wonderful, I really enjoy it.

 

[rosada]

23.6
0 Nine at the top means:
There is a large fruit still uneaten.
The superior man receives a carriage.
The house of the inferior man is split apart.

 

[rosada]

I'm seeing "large fruit" as refering to all the world's wonderful possibilities, as in "Life is just a bowl of cherries!" The superior man sees this and doesn't stay fixated mourning the past but looks to the future. As a result, opportunities scoop him up and he moves forward as if in a carriage. The inferior man stays behind, stuck in the old mind set, his house split apart because the new reality no longer supports the old mind set. I think of a new inventions that render old ways of doing things obsolete. Seeing the uneaten fruit as a new movie coming out on dvd. The superior man is not unduly attached to his old equipment and so easily procures a dvd player. The inferior man insists on waiting for the new movie to come out on video, it never does....

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 23

Line 6
"Some things are allowed to remain for they will redevelop in the future. The superior go on their way. The inferior suffer as always."

 

[Tim K]

I thought someone will see this, but apparently not.
If you look at the pair 23 - 24, 23 is an empty cup turned upside down. It's emptying the old.
While 24 is a cup which is being filled up, the return of the energy.



Since going on a diet I've seen a lot of 23.6, concerning 'bad food' that I've used to love. Or that I shouldn't eat now even if it's a banana. Because it's too heavy for me at this moment and I should move on to lighter/juicier foods.

 

[Olga Super Star]

I have always thought the fruit uneaten is something we have to leave behind but would like to eat.

So if we try and eat it we are small people, otherwise we leave it to fall onto the ground while we move on.

 

[Liselle]

Oh dear. The more one reads, the more one gets confused. uch:

I always thought why would anyone turn their back on perfectly good ripe fruit? Eat it, harvest it, don't just let it to rot.

But I see Wilhelm makes the point that if fruit was never left to rot, the seeds couldn't sprout and grow new trees -

The seed of the good remains, and it is just when the fruit falls to the ground that food sprouts anew from its seed.

- which supports a lot of what other people said in the above posts.

[Edited] I wonder if the "hut-stripping" could be something like short-sightedly using up everything you have of any value to keep afloat, instead of realizing this isn't sustainable and looking for a better/different solution?

(I might have to reconsider my entry in WikiWing, and also how on earth did I use the wrong fan yao there :bag:
<later> Got rid of the mistake, the rest of it still seems "right" to me though...*scratches head*)

 

[bradford]

All alone a sweet apple reddens on the topmost branch,
high on the highest branch, the apple pickers did not notice it,
they did not truly forget it, but they could not reach it.
Sappho (Fr. 105)

 

[Olga Super Star]

Bradford

Also found this by you

I see a process of selection here.
Herbert Spencer's phrase "Survival of the Fittest" continues to be grossly misunderstood as "Might Makes Right." In fact it means the one best fit or best adapted, to its niche or position. In this sense 23 is survival of the fittest. What belongs will survive. What has occupied an improper position will get taken down.
As to the fruit, this is the one that gets to rot, that maybe gets to become a new tree.

I don t know if you still agree with it but it gave me great comfort.

 

[Liselle]

23.6
'A ripe fruit uneaten.
Noble one gets a cart,
Small people strip their huts.'

14.3
'A prince makes an offering to the son of heaven.
Small people are in no way capable of this.'

Could these be in any way similar? In 14.3 we sometimes describe the prince as someone with the power to choose, who can afford to give something up purely as an offering to a higher ideal, but a small person can't throw his money around like that (so to speak).

So...in a situation where there's a ripe fruit, could the noble one / small person comparison work the same way at all?

Maybe especially, as Bradford hints, if the ripe fruit is uneaten because it's unreachable (line position 6?)? So, suppose the last apple is too high up to get, and you're a noble one. You get a cart, and... ... what does that tell us?
Vs. the same situation, but you're a small person. You react to it by stripping your hut. What exactly does that mean? Why are you doing it? Why is it a response to "ripe fruit uneaten"? What's the goal?

(I have no idea.)

 

[bradford]

The ripest fruit is not eaten
The noble young one gains ground
(As) the common people tear down (their own) shacks

It was hard for me to see anything but a non-sequitur from line one to two. I tried to connect them in my commentary, but I had to use one of the other attested meanings for Yu2, that of support, to be borne up or supported, upheld, instead of "carriage": "When decomposition goes this far
things will soon work themselves out. The angry mob runs riot, and burns its own
slum to the ground. The lord of the land gets his land back oddly unspoiled, made
fertile again by the ashes. The rebellion burns itself out. This does not need to call
itself justice. It is merely appropriate for unsustainable things to self-destruct now.
The rot will only attack the weak, the worms get at the dead fruit, the seed is set free."

 

[rosada]

A friend of mine was feeling remorseful because he had sold his house for quite a bit less than he might have gotten had he been a bit more informed. We consulted the I Ching as to what his attitude should be about the whole situation. He received hexagram 23.6 which we felt had a choice of interpretations. If my friend identified with the Inferior Man the reading could be saying the buyer got this great deal while my friend had lost his home. Or if my friend could identify with the Superior Man and acknowledge that the money he got for the house was sufficient to get him moving where he wanted to be, then, even though he didn't get the ripest fruit there was no reason to feel bad and the selling price became a non-issue (hexagram 2).