Memorizing the I Ching 24. Fu / Return (The Turning Point)

[Sparhawk]

Luis I have to say I thought 24 did always imply a positive turning point rather than a change for the worse so I'm not too clear on your thoughts about that, but then I'm not used to considering the hexagrams calendrically. I'd never considered it as preparation for a turn for the worse Its one of those hexagrams I see always in a positive light, 23 shedding 24 growing again.

In its overall meaning, yes, it is a positive hexagram. The same way you can very well see 23 as having a negative overtone. Now, there is a reason, cause and effect, for everything and what seems negative at first sight can have a positive ending and viceversa.

I believe there is lot of wisdom in the placing of this hexagram as the beginning of winter. If it was placed as the beginning of Spring, for example, then perhaps the meaning would have shifted too much on the positive side of things. IMHO, it is a "return," yes, but it is a return for all things, good for the most part, but also for negative cycles. You could bias 24, 100% positively, but it would be at your own peril.

L

 

[heylise]

I think 24 is not only about the point of return but about the entire concept of cycles. Friends come and go in a cyclical way, usually they don't come every day and then stay away a year. Seasons same.

But there are points of return where the cycle shows itself most clearly. Midwinter, midnight, as if it turns to 'nothing' and begins again in a small way, growing to fullness, diminishing again, and on and on.

The points of extreme, and especially the one of 'nothing', have always been felt as times in which nature stood still for a moment. It is not good to do hazardous things on the day of new or full moon, there is a much bigger chance of accidents. Children are hardly ever born at those points, nature knows it is not good for their health. Just before or after full moon, yes, but not on the exact moment.

That is also why the passes were closed, and why merchants and other travelers stayed in their inn.

LiSe

 

[bruce_g]

cycles indeed

View attachment 246

 

[Sparhawk]

Seasons same.

But there are points of return where the cycle shows itself most clearly. Midwinter, midnight, as if it turns to 'nothing' and begins again in a small way, growing to fullness, diminishing again, and on and on.

The points of extreme, and especially the one of 'nothing', have always been felt as times in which nature stood still for a moment. It is not good to do hazardous things on the day of new or full moon, there is a much bigger chance of accidents. Children are hardly ever born at those points, nature knows it is not good for their health. Just before or after full moon, yes, but not on the exact moment.

That is also why the passes were closed, and why merchants and other travelers stayed in their inn.

LiSe

Exactly! Even though I tried, I couldn't have said it better.


L

 

[Trojina]

Thanks, think I had been viewing 24 somewhat one dimensionally. Now it looks like a multi layered thing - if you know what I mean

 

[rosada]

THE JUDGEMENT
RETURN. Success.
Going our and coming in without blame.
To and fro goes the way.
On the seventh day comes return.
It furthers one to have somewhere to go.

After a time of decay comes the turning point. The powerful light that has been banished returns. There is movement, but it is not brought about by force. The upper trigram K'un is characerized by devotion; thus the movement is natural, arising spontaneously. For this reason the transformation of the old becomes easy. The old is discarded and the new is introduced. Both measures accord with the time; therefore no harm results. Societies of people sharing the same views are formed. But since these groups come together in full public knowledge and are in harmony with the time, all selfish separatist tendencies are excluded, and no mistake is made. The idea of RETURN is based on the course of nature. The movement is cyclic, and the course completes itself. Therefore it is not necessary to hasten anything artificially. Everything comes of itself at the appointed time. This is the meaning of heaven and earth.
All movements are accomplished in six stages, and the seventh brings return. Thus the winter soltice, with which the decline of the year begins, comes in the sevent month after the summer solstice, so too sunrise comes in the seventh double hour after sunset. Therefore seven is the number of the young light, and it arises when six, the number of the great darkness, is increased by one. In this way the state of rest gives way to movement.

"RETURN has success." The firm returns.
Movement and action through devotion. Therefore, "going out and coming in without error."
"Friends come without blame. to and fro goes the way. On the seventh day comes return." This is the course of heaven.
"It furthers one to have somewhere to go." The firm is on the increase.
In the hexagram of RETURN one sees the mind of heaven and earth.

This hexagram expresses the idea that the light force is the creative principle of heaven and earth. It is an eternal cyclic movement, from which life comes forth again just at the moment when it appears to have been completely vanquished. Through the re-entrance of the yang line into the hexagram below (Chen, the lower trigram), and this movement acts through devotion )Kun, the upper trigram). Going out and comeing in are without error. The yang force has indeed gone off (cf. the foregoing hexagram, Po), but like a fruit falling to earth, it has not disappeared without a trace; it has left an effect behind. This effect shows itself in the re-entrance of the yang line. The friends who come are either the other yang lines about to enter the hexagram after this first line (according to Cheng Tzu), or the five yin lines, which meet the yang line cordially. The way of yang goes to and fro, up and down. After the light force begins to deminish in Kuo, COMING TO MEET (44), it returns again in hexagram Fu, after seven changes.
"It furthers one to have somewhere to go," that is to undertake something. Borh this sentance and the image of the friends occur in the text of the second hexagram, K'un, THE RECEPTIVE.
- Wilhelm.

 

[thedave]

This Hex seems pretty straightforward. After a time of seperation, it is natural for things to return. Just like the seasons. For every Autumn, there is a Spring. I think that is what this Hex represents: The return of Spring. Life emerges once again after the cold and dark of winter. Good times!

 

[bruce_g]

Thanks, think I had been viewing 24 somewhat one dimensionally. Now it looks like a multi layered thing - if you know what I mean

Wanted to think about this before responding. Yes, I think that where time is concerned, 24 doesn't lend itself to a specific meaning, because the question always arises: return to what? To winter? To spring? To myself? I see it as all those things, a process of going and returning. But as to where is goes to or where it returns to is a sort of chicken and egg question. For practical applications, though, I believe it's safe to return to yourself. As Luis said, there's wisdom in placing 24 at the decline of summer and the approach of winter - to which I'd add: if one plans on returning to spring intact.

 

[rosada]

I think when we get into the actual lines we'll see a pattern that suggests "Return" refers to returning to what is normal. Like, after a wild night of drinking and telling stories around the campfire (22), one awakens feeling their head is Splitting (23) and so vows to Return (24) to the straight and narrow path.
Hexagram 24 can also be seen as a meditation on forgiveness and how after a Splitting Apart relationships can be mended if the one who caused offense takes responsibility as in 24.5. However if they refuse to come clean then they miss their chance, 24.6.

 

[getojack]

As Luis said, there's wisdom in placing 24 at the decline of summer and the approach of winter - to which I'd add: if one plans on returning to spring intact.

I thought Luis was saying he saw 24 as the decline of Fall and the beginning of Winter. Not the decline of Summer and the approach of Winter, which would be Fall.

In any case, we all seem to agree that it's a return of someone or something to some place or situation at some time, right?

This is all actually pretty funny. No wonder we can't return to the center. We don't even know where it is.

 

[Sparhawk]

I thought Luis was saying he saw 24 as the decline of Fall and the beginning of Winter. Not the decline of Summer and the approach of Winter, which would be Fall.

In any case, we all seem to agree that it's a return of someone or something to some place or situation at some time, right?

Here is what I said and tried to clarify... As for the rest, I agree there is wisdom in being aware of --and being prepared for-- returning cycles. That's one of the things the picture in the card depicts.

L

 

[Sparhawk]

This is all actually pretty funny. No wonder we can't return to the center. We don't even know where it is.

Well, other than the "Big Bang", I don't think we can pin the tail, with any accuracy, on the center of any recurring cycles, like the seasons... "Midpoints" are not centers, if we think of "centers" as starting points for something (i.e. a circle)...

L

 

[rosada]

Finally finished writing out what Wilhelm has to say in THE JUDGEMENT, post 37.

 

[getojack]

The friends who come are either the other yang lines about to enter the hexagram after this first line (according to Cheng Tzu), or the five yin lines, which meet the yang line cordially.
...
- Wilhelm.

What is Wilhelm talking about when he says the other yang lines about to enter the hexagram after the first line? I only see one yang line and 5 yin lines.

 

[getojack]

Thinking some more about the passes being closed. I think that this refers to the passes being snowed in. You can't travel through the passes if there are big snowdrifts. So I don't think it's a preventative measure like closing off of a city from outsiders. Neither do I think it's because of it being a new moon or full moon. The more I think about this, the more I think it really is talking about the winter solstice.

 

[getojack]

Well, other than the "Big Bang", I don't think we can pin the tail, with any accuracy, on the center of any recurring cycles, like the seasons... "Midpoints" are not centers, if we think of "centers" as starting points for something (i.e. a circle)...

L

If you were to pick a turning point (or a 'returning' point) for the cycles of the seasons, what date would you pick? I think you'd pick the winter solstice. Isn't the Chinese solar-lunar calendar pivoted on the winter solstice as well as the phases of the moon?

 

[bruce_g]

What is Wilhelm talking about when he says the other yang lines about to enter the hexagram after the first line? I only see one yang line and 5 yin lines.

I think he's referring to the yang returning from below and moving upward, with more yang following.

Rosada, there are online copies of Wilhelm you can copy/paste from. But perhaps typing them out is part of your exercise?

 

[bruce_g]

If you were to pick a turning point (or a 'returning' point) for the cycles of the seasons, what date would you pick? I think you'd pick the winter solstice. Isn't the Chinese solar-lunar calendar pivoted on the winter solstice as well as the phases of the moon?

Depends on whether it's the beginning, middle or end of the turning point. I'd place the solstice as dead center or pivotal point, which, as LiSe mentioned, is like midnight on a clock.

 

[getojack]

Depends on whether it's the beginning, middle or end of the turning point. I'd place the solstice as dead center or pivotal point, which, as LiSe mentioned, is like midnight on a clock.

There can only be one turning point on a clock, and that's the dead center.

 

[bruce_g]

There can only be one turning point on a clock, and that's the dead center.

Only if your clock is shaped as a triangle or is straight up and down. There are 360 degrees in a circle/cycle.

 

[getojack]

No, the dead center of the clock... the pivot point which holds the hour minute and second hands that make the hands move in cycles.

 

[Sparhawk]

If you were to pick a turning point (or a 'returning' point) for the cycles of the seasons, what date would you pick? I think you'd pick the winter solstice. Isn't the Chinese solar-lunar calendar pivoted on the winter solstice as well as the phases of the moon?

Those are "midpoints." IMO, the concept of a "center" is beyond the scope of "time cycles" and totally arbitrary. As a matter of fact, "some Chinese systems use the beginning of spring as their time base" (The Astrology of I Ching, W.K.Chu & W.A.Sherrill)

BTW, I think that Solstices and Equinoxes, as well as Moon phases, are just convenient "starting points", only because they are observable and can be pinned in a time line.

L

 

[bruce_g]

Breathing is another example. Breath goes out, breath returns. There are two turning points: miday and midnight. But, with the exception of brief stillness between each turning point, it is still turning and returning, turning and returning.

 

[bruce_g]

Those are "midpoints." IMO, the concept of a "center" is beyond the scope of "time cycles" and totally arbitrary. As a matter of fact, "some Chinese systems use the beginning of spring as their time base" (The Astrology of I Ching, W.K.Chu & W.A.Sherrill)

BTW, I think that Solstices and Equinoxes, as well as Moon phases, are just convenient "starting points", only because they are observable and can be pinned in a time line.

L

badda bing badda boom

 

[bruce_g]

No, the dead center of the clock... the pivot point which holds the hour minute and second hands that make the hands move in cycles.

There is no time in the center of a clock. lol

 

[getojack]

Those are "midpoints." IMO, the concept of a "center" is beyond the scope of "time cycles" and totally arbitrary. As a matter of fact, "some Chinese systems use the beginning of spring as their time base" (The Astrology of I Ching, W.K.Chu & W.A.Sherrill)

BTW, I think that Solstices and Equinoxes, as well as Moon phases, are just convenient "starting points", only because they are observable and can be pinned in a time line.

L

Sure, they're midpoints. If we knew the dead center of the universe, we wouldn't have to keep adjusting our calendars when they keep going out of whack every hundred years or so.

 

[Sparhawk]

No, the dead center of the clock... the pivot point which holds the hour minute and second hands that make the hands move in cycles.

Let's go into physics now: have you realized that, in theory, the very center of any circular motion is a motionless point? Things start moving and speed up, proportionally, as you move away from the center. A bicycle wheel is a good and observable example.

L

 

[getojack]

Let's go into physics now: have you realized that, in theory, the very center of any circular motion is a motionless point? Things start moving and speed up, proportionally, as you move away from the center. A bicycle wheel is a good and observable example.

L

Yes. And?

 

[Sparhawk]

Yes. And?

Not much. Something to ponder in meditation, that's all... Glad you brought up the clock metaphor, I agree with that being a "center," motionless as it may be and thus devoid of "time." In a cosmic scale, we live in a gigantic "clock," with one and only one "center;" a timeless one.

L

 

[bruce_g]

I know of no other hexagram that's as hard to pin down to a static singular answer as 24 is, especially where questions of season and time are concerned. There was a similar discussion on this board a few years ago. These metaphors may help, but they also always raise more questions.

It's like when I forgot who was asked for a clear definition of pornography: at what exact point does something become pornographic? The answer was, I don't know, but I know it when I see it. I think when we examine those times when 24 was a prominent reading in our lives, we could see it coming, and sometimes we could even detect an exact moment when we arrived at the turning point, but most often not. We just keep on walking, breathing, going and returning, unnoticed.

For me the simple answer is, return inward, which in turn prepares me to go outward again.