Memorizing the I Ching 24. Fu / Return (The Turning Point)

[Trojina]

Yes thats also my impression Bruce, and if dwelling on a hexagram can give rise to an almost physical sensation, as if it were a tactile thing not just an idea then 24 could make me a bit dizzy - in a good way

 

[rosada]

Thanks, Bruce. Where can I find the Wilhelm text online? Actually, I don't know how to do cut and paste but perhaps this will inspire me to learn.

 

[rosada]

Some more tidbits from Wilhelm on Return:

The ruler of the hexagram is the nine at the beginning. This is the line referred to by the Commentary on the Decisison in the statement, "The firm returns."

The Sequence
Things cannnot be destroyed once and for all. When what is above is completely split apart, it returns below. Hence there follows the hexagram of RETURN.

RETURN means coming back.

RETURN is the stem of character. RETURN is small, yet different from external things. RETURN leads to self knowledge.

The hexagram of RETURN, applied to character formation, contains various suggestions. The light principle returns: thus the hexagram counsels turning away from the confusion of external things, turning back to the inner light. There, in the depths of the soul, one sees the Divine, the One. It is indeed only germinal, no more than a beginning, a potentiality, but as such clearly to be distinguished from all objects. To know this One means to know oneself in relation to the cosmic forces. For this One is the ascending force in life in nature and in man.
This hexagram is the inverse of the preceding one, and the movement tends very strongly upward from below - from the trigram Chen - going through the sinking trigram K'un.

 

[thedave]

Thanks, Bruce. Where can I find the Wilhelm text online? Actually, I don't know how to do cut and paste but perhaps this will inspire me to learn.

A link to the Willhelm, and a good site. http://www.afpc.asso.fr/wengu/wg/wengu.php?l=Yijing

You don't know how to copy and paste?

For Windows:
Highlight a peice of text by holding down the left mouse button and dragging it over the text you want to copy. Press "ctrl+c" and this will copy the highlighted material. Press "ctrl+v" to paste the text anywhere you want.

Hope this helps!

 

[bruce_g]

Thanks, Bruce. Where can I find the Wilhelm text online? Actually, I don't know how to do cut and paste but perhaps this will inspire me to learn.

If you PM your email to me, I'll send my copy to you.

 

[rosada]

THE IMAGE
Thunder within the earth:
the image of THE TURNING POINT.
Thus the kings of antiquity did not go about
And the ruler
Did not travel through the provinces.

The winter solstice has always been celebrated in China as the resting time of the year. In winter the life energy, symbolized by thunder, the Arousing, is still underround. Movement is just at its beginning; therefore it must be strengthened by rest, so that it will not be dissipated by being used prematurely. This principle, i.e., of allowing energy that is renewing itself to be reinforced by rest, applies to all similar situations. The return of health after illness, the return of understanding after estrangement: everything must be treated tenderly and with care at the beginning, so that the return may lead to a flowering.

The hexagram is associated with the month of the winter soltice. From this are drawn the conclusions resulting in the right behavior at the time when the returning yang force is still weak and must be strengthened by rest.

 

[heylise]

Many cycles are part of our psyche. The month and week come directly from the moon. New moon to first quarter is one week, four weeks in one month. Originally these 'corners' of the moon-month were the sundays.

It seems the regime in Russia tried once to make the week a ten-day one. But it did not work, they had to change it back to 7 days. It did not match with people's own rhythms.

Many fertility cycles follow the moon-cycle. Every living creature is part of lots of cycles. Time comes from our inside, and it happens all around us, it is not something arbitrary.
It is feeling the cycles

LiSe

 

[bruce_g]

Many cycles are part of our psyche. The month and week come directly from the moon. New moon to first quarter is one week, four weeks in one month. Originally these 'corners' of the moon-month were the sundays.

It seems the regime in Russia tried once to make the week a ten-day one. But it did not work, they had to change it back to 7 days. It did not match with people's own rhythms.

Many fertility cycles follow the moon-cycle. Every living creature is part of lots of cycles. Time comes from our inside, and it happens all around us, it is not something arbitrary.
It is feeling the cycles

LiSe

Thought this an interesting commentary. Naturally there lots more to the story, but since we're on cycles and wheels and such...

Eze 1:16 The appearance of the wheels and their work [was] like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work [was] as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

Eze 1:19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.

Eze 1:20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither [was their] spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature [was] in the wheels.

Eze 1:21 When those went, [these] went; and when those stood, [these] stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature [was] in the wheels.

 

[rosada]

I think it's interesting that we are having this lengthy discussion here at the beginning of 24.Return.
Like we're actually doing the whole taking care at the beginning bit 24 recommends.

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 24 Image:

"[With enlightenment comes trust]. Thunder in the centre of the earth : Return [Avoiding temptation] - In primal times one closed the gates at noon; merchants did not move about, and one did not go anywhere. [Until the 'day' cooled down]".


Note that the concept of cycle relates to the repetition of sameness over time. This is a symmetric focus of meaning where the self-referencing of the IC dichotomy brings out the symmetry and the focus on a 'return'.

There is also the asymmetric form where this is a beginning 'a fresh'. For some it is considered being 'born again' and for others it is first born where we are on the border of difference/sameness rather than trying to replace a past with something 'new' and so maintain a physiological form by try to overwrite the psychic form.

When we consider 24 from the metaphor of emotion we have "With/from surprise comes fear". The proactive form being "with/from the new comes devotion to another/others".

The roots of IC self-referencing in symmetry will favour sameness perspectives and so include the cyclic, however there is also scope to consider the unique, the 'random, never to be repeated' states of difference, and that includes the unique nature of individual consciousness.

Combining sameness and difference presents us with hierarchy where here we are on the bottom rung of the hierarchy ladder and can develop within this level or move to other levels. (the controlling hexagram of line position 1 is 24 itself and so the 24-ness of 24 is expressed in the form of 02 - a focus on potentials, we see all beginnings as potentials.)

Chris.

 

[rosada]

Looking at all those yin lines and trying to understand the meaning of "Friends come without blame. To and fro goes the way." I'm seeing the yin lines as discribing the unconcious, the unformed, and how in that relm of undefined possibilities ideas can be considered and revised without restriction.

 

[bruce_g]

Looking at all those yin lines and trying to understand the meaning of "Friends come without blame. To and fro goes the way." I'm seeing the yin lines as discribing the unconcious, the unformed, and how in that relm of undefined possibilities ideas can be considered and revised without restriction.

I think that's a great way to see it. Regeneration brings new things with it, not just a replay of the last time around.

 

[bruce_g]

Yes thats also my impression Bruce, and if dwelling on a hexagram can give rise to an almost physical sensation, as if it were a tactile thing not just an idea then 24 could make me a bit dizzy - in a good way

LOL, I missed this post. Yes, there's such a thing as over-thinking a hexagram's meaning. But it can also be fun.. in a good way.

 

[getojack]

Yes thats also my impression Bruce, and if dwelling on a hexagram can give rise to an almost physical sensation, as if it were a tactile thing not just an idea then 24 could make me a bit dizzy - in a good way

Yep. To me, 24 is being a kid, spinning around in circles with your arms out, feeling like you're the center of the universe until you get so dizzy you fall down in a heap LYAO.

 

[getojack]

Looking at all those yin lines and trying to understand the meaning of "Friends come without blame. To and fro goes the way." I'm seeing the yin lines as discribing the unconcious, the unformed, and how in that relm of undefined possibilities ideas can be considered and revised without restriction.

I think you should revise that idea.

 

[dobro p]

Begging permission to phase shift a bit here.

24.1

What's your take on it?

It describes a quick return after having strayed only slightly.

But if you actually draw this line in response to a question, would you read it as: "Now I have to get back to where I belong, cuz I've strayed." Or would you read it as: "My getting back to where I belong is being recognized by the universe." In other words, would you take its core meaning to be: "You're off track a bit and need to return," or "you've returned quickly from being off track slightly"?

 

[bruce_g]

Begging permission to phase shift a bit here.

24.1

What's your take on it?

It describes a quick return after having strayed only slightly.

But if you actually draw this line in response to a question, would you read it as: "Now I have to get back to where I belong, cuz I've strayed." Or would you read it as: "My getting back to where I belong is being recognized by the universe." In other words, would you take its core meaning to be: "You're off track a bit and need to return," or "you've returned quickly from being off track slightly"?

For me it's not so much having strayed, but having stayed out a little too late, as though nighttime snuck up on me unawares.

But I suppose it can also refer to having strayed off your center. The effect is the same either way: being left out in the cold, and saying "oops, better go home now."

 

[hilary]

Neatly foiling Dobro's attempt at a phase shift, and returning again ( )...

Does anyone have thoughts on why the Judgement says 'seventh day'? As afaik Chinese weeks back then had 10 days. Was there a nascent lunar calendar it might be about? Or is it something else?

 

[rosada]

THE LINES
0 Nine at the beginning means:
Return from a short distance.
No need for remorse.
Great good fortune.

Slight digressions from the good cannot be avoided, but one must turn back in time,
before going too far. this is especially important in the development of character; every faintly evil thought must be put aside immediately, before it goes too far and takes root in the mind. Then there is no cause for remorse and all goes well.

The strong line at the bottom turns back at once. The first line of Chen is very mobile; hence the immediate turnabout before going too far. Confucius says about this line:

Yen Hui is one who will surely attain it. If he has a fault, he never fails to recognize it; having recognized it, he never commits the error a second time. In the book of changes it is said: "Return from a short distance, No need for remorse. Great good fortune."

-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

If 23 is renouncing, Splitting Apart from all those habits and thought patterns that have kept one anchored in the past, and 24 is Returning to Source, The Now, surely there has got to be a little moment where one is not in the past but not yet fully in the now. Like, if you're in church and you renounce sin, well and good, but what happens when you're out in the world? Will you be able to walk passed that donut shop without so much as a second look? And what if you do give it a second look, is that a sin? Maybe, but let's just call it a 24.1 moment.

Line one tends to indicate a condition BEFORE the real energy of the hexagram takes hold. So I think 24.1 discribes the circumstance where one NEEDS to return to their good intention, but hasn't done so yet, yet the digression is so slight, the mere recognition of needing to return is enough to bring the person back into alignment.

 

[dobro p]

Neatly foiling Dobro's attempt at a phase shift, and returning again ( )...

Does anyone have thoughts on why the Judgement says 'seventh day'? As afaik Chinese weeks back then had 10 days. Was there a nascent lunar calendar it might be about? Or is it something else?

I think it's to indicate that the movement of the time and the period of time we're dealing with here is more relaxed and takes longer than the 'three days' mentioned in Hex 18, for instance.

Given the very idiosyncratic nature of Chinese culture compared to western culture, I doubt that the 7 in 'seven days' has much to do with our seven-day week, or the Jewish candelabra, or the seven heavens of Middle Eastern lore, or the seven levels of the Fourth Way teaching, or the seven chakras, or the seven notes of a major or minor scale, or 7/11 or the Seven Samurai or the Seven Dwarves or the Seven Deadly Sins. Or maybe 7's universal.

Or perhaps I'm straying from where I should be. Perhaps I'm in a sort of 24.1 state right now. Alternately, perhaps I've rescued this thread from it's recent tendency to stray from the exploration of 24.1 I requested earlier. Which is it, do you think?

 

[rosada]

Is this where the head spinning comes in?

Anyway, it does seem worthy of note that the I Ching says the seventh day brings RETURN and the Bible says "On the seventh day God rested." It does appear there is a similar awareness of the need to conciously return to homebase every moon phase.

I understand that some study of conservative Jews who made a strict habit of making the seventh day a day of rest showed these people tended to live significantly longer.

Perhaps the universally recognized benefit of "sleeping on it" before making a decision is an example of the hexagram 24.

 

[bruce_g]

I think people are the most peculiar animals, and are prone to over-categorical black and white thinking. Life in a box, or perhaps in a book, or maybe a book in a box, doesn't interest me. In reality there are no boxes, and no isolationist theory connects with the whole without recognition of sharing a common phenomenal existence.

I agree with Chris, that IC fundamentalism misses the point.

 

[getojack]

I think people are the most peculiar animals, and are prone to over-categorical black and white thinking. Life in a box, or perhaps in a book, or maybe a book in a box, doesn't interest me. In reality there are no boxes, and no isolationist theory connects with the whole without recognition of sharing a common phenomenal existence.

I agree with Chris, that IC fundamentalism misses the point.

Not sure where Chris said that, but I agree with you about books and boxes.

 

[getojack]

Is this where the head spinning comes in?

Anyway, it does seem worthy of note that the I Ching says the seventh day brings RETURN and the Bible says "On the seventh day God rested." It does appear there is a similar awareness of the need to conciously return to homebase every moon phase.

Well, it might be worthy of note if the Chinese at the time of the writing of the Yi were Christians or Jews and had a seven day week, but they weren't and they didn't. The moon returns to homebase approximately every 29.5 days.

 

[frank_r]

The strong line at the bottom turns back at once. The first line of Chen is very mobile; hence the immediate turnabout before going too far.

Returning to the winter feeling where still everything is possible to happen in the coming year. Before the turning point.

Here in Holand it is suddenly very warm, 25 degrees suddenly, some trees hardly had any leaves a few days ago, and now it´s like they are exploding with there green leaves.
It´s like the season is over it´s dead point. Everybody is working in the garden, paiting houses and waering colourfull clothes.

But when the weather changes to his normal routine about 10-12 degree, that will all fall back again. Now at this moment it's hard to imagine that it can be cold again in a few days.

 

[frank_r]

Exploding nature

Sitting in my garden I see that nature is smiling at me.

 

[getojack]

Or perhaps I'm straying from where I should be. Perhaps I'm in a sort of 24.1 state right now. Alternately, perhaps I've rescued this thread from it's recent tendency to stray from the exploration of 24.1 I requested earlier. Which is it, do you think?

Actually, I was going to respond to your earlier request for exploration of 24.1
I guess I might as well return now to my earlier thoughts on the subject. I think that whether you see it as straying from path and returning, or as being right where you should be, depends on your perspective when asking the question.

If you are in a happy place when you ask the question, you'll probably think it's saying you strayed a bit and have returned safely. If you're in a bad place when you ask the question, you'll probably think it's saying you should return to your happy place. IOW,

= I don't like this place... I should return to my happy place.
= I've returned after straying a bit... all is right with the world.

 

[dobro p]

If you are in a happy place when you ask the question, you'll probably think it's saying you strayed a bit and have returned safely. If you're in a bad place when you ask the question, you'll probably think it's saying you should return to your happy place. IOW,

= I don't like this place... I should return to my happy place.
= I've returned after straying a bit... all is right with the world.

Yeah, granted. But I'm looking for something a bit more uh...objective. This oracle is already way too subjective to be useful sometimes. See, my problem with 24.1 is this: when I draw it, it always arises in a situation where I'm not sure what to do exactly or how to handle the situation. And that's because sometimes the Yi gives me a snapshot of what's happening and sometimes it gives me a snapshot of what *needs* to happen. By looking at my situation, I can usually know which sort of snapshot I'm being given. But I always have a lot of trouble with 24.1 for some reason. So if it has only ONE meaning, that will help me a lot lol. See, I'm the sort of person who can *always* see both sides of a question and it paralyzes me sometimes. (Which is one reason I use the Yi - it gives me a hint about what's *really* happening.) So looking at how I feel and what my perspective is, like you suggest, when I ask the question is not particularly useful for me, because it doesn't get me useful results. That's why Chris Lofting's approach is so unuseful for me - it's the ultimate subjectivity that gets me nowhere. I'm not saying this approach isn't useful for some peope; but for me, it gets me nowhere. If Chris reads this, he'll probably post a page-long response with ideas we're all familiar with, but it doesn't change the basic fact of the experience I'm reporting. I don't need best fit approaches; I need to know what the damn line means. lol

 

[getojack]

I don't need best fit approaches; I need to know what the damn line means. lol

Wilhelm's translation is a bit ambiguous on the point. I've got Cleary's translation, which is "If you return before going far, you will have no regret and be very lucky." Cleary's note on the Image for this line is "Returning before going far is done by self-cultivation." IOW, self-cultivation leads to return which leads to no regret and good luck.