Memorizing the I Ching 25. Wu Wang / Innocence ( The Unexpected)

[rosada]

Interesting there is a thread discussing hexagram 12. Standstill at this point. 25.1 leads to Standstill. That is, 25.1>12. What is that in real life experience, would you say? Sounds like some sweet kid innocently asking the girl to dance and getting shot down pronto. Insights?

 

[Trojina]

Well i could see it as innocently asking girl to dance but don't see where the shot down bit comes in ? Do you mean cos it results in 12 ?

 

[crystal_blue]

Interesting there is a thread discussing hexagram 12. Standstill at this point. 25.1 leads to Standstill. That is, 25.1>12. What is that in real life experience, would you say? Sounds like some sweet kid innocently asking the girl to dance and getting shot down pronto. Insights?

Yin advancing instead of Yang - the sweet kid is about to innocently ask the girl to dance but is overcome with doubt and indecision.

 

[bruce_g]

Well i could see it as innocently asking girl to dance but don't see where the shot down bit comes in ? Do you mean cos it results in 12 ?

Neither do I see anything about being shot down, and this is why I don't see the relating hex (12 in this case) as always resulting, except purely mechanically.

The boy asks the girl to dance, and they decide to withdraw together (fan yao 12.1), somewhere away from the crowd.

 

[Trojina]

The boy asks the girl to dance, and they decide to withdraw together (fan yao 12.1), somewhere away from the crowd.

To smoke some grass together (12.1)

 

[bruce_g]

To smoke some grass together (12.1)

Oh, well, hopefully they're not too young then.

 

[hollis]

he innocently asks her to the dance, she innocently accepts, and the true love of his/her life, who was, unbeknownst to them, watching across the room, walks away.

 

[rosada]

Yeah, I was wondering how 25.1 could be said to lead to 12.

(25.1)Innocent behavior brings good fortune...

..but...

(12)..the superior man does not permit himself to be honored with revenue.

So he asks, but she turns him down.

Or is it that the Innocent behavior doesn't get one into trouble, but it doesn't get one very far either? Like a lucky guess that gives the right answer, that time, but you still have to figure out how to actually do the problems. Like the superior man isn't going to just rely on luck?

 

[martin]

Well, there is no problem of you see the second hex as context.
The context or overall situation is 12, so it doesn't feel right to act or one doesn't expect that ones actions will be succesful. The time doesn't seem right.
But 25, typically, doesn't care if the time is right or not. It just acts, spontaneously.
The boy approaches her and the result is good.

 

[martin]

The 'lesson' of 25.1>12 is, I think, that spontaneous action (don't think, follow your impulses) can break what is or appears to be a deadlock.

 

[bruce_g]

1 and 6 make and interesting contrast, which I wrestled to understand awhile ago. Even started a thread on it here. 1 is before there's an ulterior motive. 6 has already gathered momentum, and tends to act recklessly.

 

[rosada]

Your take on it makes a lot of sence to me, Martin. In fact, now I have a better handle on what is meant by the second hexagram representing the context. Thanks.

 

[rosada]

Six in the second place means:
If one does not count on the harvest while plowing,
Nor on the use of the ground while clearing it,
It furthers one to undertake something.

We should do every task for it's own sake as time and place demand and not with an eye to the result. Then each task turns out well, and anything we undertake succeeds.

Not plowing in order to reap: that is, one does not seek wealth.
-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

Just had a thought about 25.1 > 12 and the idea of innocent action being appropriate to get things moving in a time of Stagnation. Sonny Bono - of Sonny and Cher fame - went on to represent his district in congress. I heard a story illustrating that while he was not a career politician and not on top of all the intricacies and subtleties of the game, his innocent good nature played a meaningful roll. It seems the two parties were totally gridlocked one night, both sides absolutely refusing to see the other's point of view or give an inch. Suddenly there was a knock at the chamber door - and in walked three delivery boys carrying a dozen large pizzas! Sonny had ordered them, knowing you just can't stay uptight while munching on a pizza. Sure enough, the group relaxed and the compromises were made and the bill got passed.

 

[getojack]

Six in the second place means:
If one does not count on the harvest while plowing,
Nor on the use of the ground while clearing it,
It furthers one to undertake something.

Reminds me of a zen saying:

A cup is a cup before you wash it.
It ceases to be a cup while you're washing it.
After it's been washed, it's a cup again.

 

[Trojina]

Reminds me of a zen saying:

A cup is a cup before you wash it.
It ceases to be a cup while you're washing it.
After it's been washed, it's a cup again.

Interesting, hadn't thought of it like that - sort of like 48,4 - something out of action whilst it is being maintained.

I think this line is one of the most controversial in the Yi. I've seen some very different meanings ascribed to it on some thread somewhere. As far as I recall some see it as not to count on rewards whilst you are still doing the work - as Wilhelm. Others say it means the very opposite, that here you can reap rewards without plowing - this field is already plowed. The ground is already prepared, no work required of you.

From my own experience with the line I've found the second idea to be most accurate.

 

[getojack]

Interesting, hadn't thought of it like that - sort of like 48,4 - something out of action whilst it is being maintained.

Sort of, but not really. More like: things derive their meaning from their usefulness for some purpose. But we don't think about the field's usefulness while plowing it, or the cup's usefulness while washing it.

 

[rosada]

Fragment of a Mary Oliver Poem

My work is loving the world.
Here the sunflowers, there the hummingbird -
Equal seekers of sweetness.
Here the quickening yeast, there the blue plume.
Here the clam deep in the speckled shell.

Are my boots old? Is my coat torn?
Am I no longer young, and still not half perfect?
Let me keep my mind on what matters, which is my work.

Which is mostly standing still and learning to be astonished.
The phoebe, the delphiniums.
The sheep in the pasture, and the pasture.
Which is mostly rejoicing, since all the ingrediants are here.

Which is gratitude, to be given a mind and a heart
and these body clothes,
A mouth with which to give shouts of joy
To the moth and the wren, to the sleepy clam,
Telling them over and over, how it is
That we live forever.

 

[rosada]

to continue with what Wilhelm has to say about 25.2...
This line is central and correct. On the one hand, it is in the relationship of holding together with the nine at the beginning; on the other, it is in the relationship of correspondence to the nine in the fifth place. But being central and correct, it does not allow itself to be deflected by these relationships. It is the lowest line in the nuclear trigram Ken, Keeping Still, hence it keeps a calm mind; but it is also in the middle of the trigram Chen, movement, hence may undertke something.

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 25.2

Line 2
"As one is not involved in day to day events, it would be advantageous to have a goal."

with/from disentanglement (non involvement - 25) comes treading (10 - a path to a goal) - line position 2 is controlled by hexagram 07 - uniforming, a focus on issues of sameness where such is derived from the outside - here the intense observations of one on a path reflects this outside influence as one is watched. From a social position, given the 25 nature, it is better to be seen as 'doing' something (and so seeming to 'be like us') if one is not involved with the 'day to day' events - and at the same time to have a goal to work on for one's own satisfaction.

Note that LAKE in the bottom position covers issues of self-reflection, both literally and metaphorically. HEAVEN in upper covers a focus on being singleminded/competitive etc etc. Thus the trigrams of 10 read "with/from self-reflection comes singlemindedness".

Chris.

 

[bruce_g]

IC+ 25.2

Line 2
"As one is not involved in day to day events, it would be advantageous to have a goal."

Would that necessarily be 'to have a goal', rather than to have a means to apply yourself? I've always gotten quite the opposite from this line than setting goals. Contrary, in fact. More like the Zen of serving tea, or any other activity where consciousness is not preoccupied with goals or results. It's also usually the most efficient approach to getting things done and done well; not getting ahead of yourself. Workaholics, on the other hand (those who tread), have difficulty completing anything they start, and they start more fires than they have time to put out. Horribly inefficient, and not much fun to work with either.

 

[rosada]

I see a different conection between 25.2 and 10. First of all, if I were to illustrate hex. 10 it would be a picture of the young fool getting a direct clear answer from the Master. He could have swatted the fool to kingdom come, but instead IC answers the question - with an answer that settles the question once and for all (and thus then there is 11. Peace). Thus in this context of 10 - which I see as representing All Wisdom, All Knowledge All power, which can do or say or create anything but for some unknown reason lets the fool tread on the tail of the tiger unscathed - then we have 25.2 which I see as being about just doing what you innocently feel to do, you may not know why or how this will lead to anything, but you have a feeling to do it, and lo, because one is within this ball of 10. All knowing benevolent power, whatever one does can be seen as being "right" or in harmony with All That Is, and thus whatever one does is right, or suitable to the situation. So in a reading I would say this line is saying the situation is like a potluck supper, whatever you feel to bring or not bring will fit in just fine with whatever else is going on, so don't worry about it, just come.

 

[lightofreason]

At the basic level all that is being suggested is that if you dont want to be 'like us' or 'with us' (the uniformity focus) at least do *something*. The focus ON a goal says
nothing about achieving it.

If you dont like the notion of a goal then try that of an outcome. There the focus is on finding and then maintaining some context that elicits satisfaction and so removes all considerations of desires.

In Buddhism the focus is not on the removal of desire (that is impossible) but on immediate satisfaction when one awakes - all needs/demands/desires are met.

 

[bruce_g]

Chris, I usually connect with your core hex/line meanings, but I see nothing in line 2 about 'like us' or 'with us', which I think you're deriving from uniformity of hex 7? If I were to make a connection with 25.2 and 7, it would be that 7 is mission oriented, while mission orientation is distinctly lacking in line 2. Or if not lacking entirely, working only in the background.

“In Buddhism the focus is not on the removal of desire (that is impossible) but on immediate satisfaction when one awakes - all needs/demands/desires are met.”

I suppose that technically this is correct, at least for most schools of Buddhism. However, though it is impossible to remove all desire, desire for the finished result can take a back seat to the joy of being and doing, and I perceive this to be the essence of 25.2.

 

[rosada]

Six in the third place means:
Undeserved misfortune.
The cow that was tethered by someone
Is the wanderer's gain, the citizen's loss.

 

[lightofreason]

Chris, I usually connect with your core hex/line meanings, but I see nothing in line 2 about 'like us' or 'with us', which I think you're deriving from uniformity of hex 7? If I were to make a connection with 25.2 and 7, it would be that 7 is mission oriented, while mission orientation is distinctly lacking in line 2. Or if not lacking entirely, working only in the background.

The line position controller is always 'background', an influence on the line position regardless of yin/yang nature - there is a 'guide' focus.

We can map out the building of 25 from these guidances such that the YANG aspect gives us the nature of 25 = the natures of 24 + 16 + 08 + 23

When we 'add' yang to line 2 so we have added 07 to the above to give us 10. BUT the adding is as an aspect - we dont convert line 2 into yang we bring out a 'change' in that position that contributes to bringing out an aspect of 25 - its '07-ness' described by analogy to 10.

Even with the mission focus the 7 influence leads to a focus on GETTING a mission since one has none due to non-involvement, disentangling, and so NOT 'like us' - the uniformity of 7 (where in 7 that uniformity is derived from the outside and is unconditional as compared to 04 that is conditional)

The IC+ comments cover this focus on if you are not involved with, disentangle yourself from, the 'every day' that is fine but at least do SOMETHING.

IF we review the hexagrams from the binary sequence then hexagram 25 shares space with hexagram 17. Remove the top line and the resulting forms are identical, there is no differentiation of line meanings.

Now compare 17.2 with 25.2 noting the underlying control of 07.

17.2
Line 2
"A belief is not necessarily eternal. Times change influencing one's experiences. For the individual to develop, a belief may need to be replaced by another, richer one. To hold on to the past gets one nowhere."

25.2
Line 2
"As one is not involved in day to day events, it would be advantageous to have a goal."

There is a subtle theme here in issues of (a) getting a goal (belief system etc comes with such) and (b) updating/replacing goals with 'better' ones - and that includes replacing nothing with something.

17 overall covers an unconditional theme of finding a following ( be it a person or mission, group focus etc)
25 covers the conditional form of one's own following (and so disentanglement from the group by asserting one's own)

17 is social, cooperative, 25 is psychological, competitive.

The actions of the top line position DIFFERENCES influence, act to differentiate, the SAMNESS in the five preceding lines of the hexagrams. This is so in ALL hexagrams that make up the pairs of the hexagrams in this sequence.What THAT focus does is bring out the 23-ness focus in deriving meaning of each element of the pair, we remove the chaff from the wheat, we prune to allow for unique, core, expressions of a hexagram to come out - the top line completion into yin or yang brings out the differences in the elements of the hexagram pair.

As we find, for example, the feast/fast dynamic in the 45/12 pair (and so cooperative/competitive dynamics), so we find in 17/25 relationships the cooperative/competitive focus aka integrating/differentiating differences.

25.2 from the XOR perspective gives us the 07-ness of 25 is described by analogy to generic characteristics of 10. How is 'uniformity' expressed in a context of disentanglement? We take a path and follow it BUT we are under observation all of the way and so the focus on 'conduct'. IOW one can follow one's own path - but at least HAVE a path - but one will be being observed all of the time (the uniformity focus, you are trying to be not 'of us' but as a social being you cannot escape such in general - doing your own thing still elicits social interest)

17.2 from XOR gives us the 07-ness of 17. This is in the form of 58 where the uniformity is expressed in the intensity of expression, self-reflection, self-promotion, that comes out socially as 'show biz', fandom, others trying to 'be like' or 'look like' you (brings out the sexual aspects of lake in the form of replication, mirroring etc) and so your personal path is adopted to reflect 'uniformity' - army of fans, clones etc

The unconditional nature of 17 brings out in 17.2 the 'taking over' of one's personal nature whereas with 25.2 there is still a distancing from the others - others watch as compared to trying to become like.

An interesting focus on this takeover fo 17.2 includes the emergence of habit and so NOT change - this is fought against in the line comment indicating one needs to re-invent, find a 'new' belief etc and so ensure avoiding decay, habit etc!

Chris.

 

[lightofreason]

IC+
Line 3
"Non-involvement has it's disasters. Transients can easily take the possessions of others."

Non-involvement can be idealist such that one is extreme and not prepared to help others when they are in strife.

We see here the influence of the line position controller - hex 15 with ITS focus on filling in lows, reducing highs, keep words close to facts etc. Thus our extreme sense of non-involvement is 'not' modest when it needs to be so in that there are times when, being social creatures, one does need to 'get involved' if but just to call the police on one's mobile!

Chris.

 

[bruce_g]

Chris, so in other (and fewer) words, 25.2 needs to get out of their rut, get off their duff, hit the plow. The mission is to plow, not to be concerned (yet) with the harvest.

 

[bruce_g]

Chris, not to make light of your elaboration, but my only comment on "As one is not involved in day to day events, it would be advantageous to have a goal." was that, what you're referring to as "goal" might better be expressed as a means rather than an end.

 

[rosada]

Nine in the fourth place means:
He who can be persevering
Remains without blame.

We cannot lose what really belongs to us, even if we throw it away. Therefore we need have no anxiety. All that need concern us is that we should remain true to our own natures and not listen to others.

The nine in the fourth is originally neither correct nor central. However, as the lowest line in the trigram Chien, it is able to preserve the firmness belonging to the Creative. By this means it remains free of the blame otherwise to be feared.
--Wilhelm