Memorizing the I Ching 25. Wu Wang / Innocence ( The Unexpected)

[lightofreason]

IC+ 25

Line 4
"One uses the principles of non-involvement to survive possibly testing times. No harm."

 

[rosada]

Seeing a pattern here...
The bottom trigram with it's strong yang at the beginning and then the two yin lines suggests to me a feeling of someone bursting onto the scene. Because the two yin lines offer no resistance, the innocent yang moves about freely, but with nothing to slow it down, give it focus, the impulse becomes scattered, ultimately becoming out of sync with the group flow? Thinking so far...

25.1 > 12
Within the context of 12.Stagnation, Innocent Action brings good fortune.
So like, nothings going on, everyone on their own trip, disconnected, imagine a shopping mall filled with strangers. Then in walks a four year old. He's never been to a mall before, he thinks it's Disneyland! He's laughing and skipping and having a grand time. Actually experiencing what the original creators of the mall hoped would happen.

25.2 > 10
Within the context of Treading [conduct] Innocent Action continues to further.
So the four year old continues to run and laugh and carry on in the mall as is totally appropriate to the setting and his age and as before no one objects.

25.3 > 13
Within the context of Fellowship with Men, Innocent Action brings misfortune.
The four year old is still doing what four year old's do but now he has unknowingly moved off center. He is no longer forgetting each experience has a new one appears, memory starts to develope. The NOW no longer takes his whole focus. He starts to be aware of where he would like to go next and what he would like to come back to later. The other people in the mall are no longer one with him, are no longer projections of other selves, but are Others separate from himself. Thus One is no longer experienced as syncronistic with All.

25.4 > 42
Within the context of Increase, Innocent Action persevers.
The Innocent energy of the four year old does not dwell on disappointment, but continues on and indeed comes to see that what was experienced as loss in 25.3 actually is not a problem after all. There are many more fish in the sea. So 25.4 has a feeling of beginning to make choices? Value judgements? The "sees good, he imitates it; If he has faults, he rids himself of them" teachings of 42. starting to be downloaded into experience?

 

[rosada]

0 Nine in the fifth place means:
Use no medicine in an illness
Incurred through no fault of your own.
It will pass of itself.

An unexpected evil may come accidentally from without. If it does not originate in one's own nature or have a foothold there, one should not resort to external means to eradicate it, but should quietly let nature take it's course. Then improvement will come of itself.

One should not try an unknown medicine.

Medicine is suggested by the two nuclear trigrams, wood and stone (mountain). The illness is innocently incurred because this line, as the middle line of the Creative, represents a person by nature free of illness, that he appears to be ill comes from his way of taking on the illnesses of others upon himself. His central, correct, and ruling position predisposes him to allow the ills of others, vicariously taken upon himself, to work themselves out in him.
-Wilhelm

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 25.5

Line 5
"When non-involvement becomes a disease, laughter is the best medicine."

 

[Sparhawk]

laughter is the best medicine."

Hey, didn't I see that in a Reader's Digest?

L

 

[dobro p]

Yeah. Chris writes for Reader's Digest, didn't you know?

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 25.5

Line 5
"When non-involvement becomes a disease, laughter is the best medicine."

Too short for you guys? LOL!

simply put, line position 5 is controlled by hexagram 08 with ITS focus on passive attraction, the king, the ruler the court or, as in hex 03, the 'sun'. In this case the ruler is ... non-involvement. It has become the centre of attraction and so takes over the individual like a flu.

This 08-ness of 25 is described by analogy to 100101 - 21 and so a focus on issues of deviation from the norm, i.e. an extreme - a problem in need of solving.

The recommended solution is to recognise the stupidity of one's intense attraction by breaking the symmetry - laugh at yourself. This is a sort of self-referencing in getting involved with self to deal with the self's focus on non-involvement.

 

[rosada]

Nine at the top means:
Innocent action brings misfortune.
Nothing furthers.

When, in a given situation, the time is not ripe for further progress, the best thing to do is to wait quietly, without ulterior designs. If one acts thoughtlessly and tries to push ahead in oppostion to fate, success cannot be achieved.

Action without reflection brings about the evil of bewilderment.
This line is related to the weak, restless six in the third place. Thoughtless action brings misfortune. The line is at the end, In a time when action is no longer appropriate, To go on thoughtlessly leads to bewilderment. The line describes a situation similar to that of the top line of THE CREATIVE.
-Wilhelm

"The line describes a situation similar to the top line of THE CREATIVE". I remember when we were focusing on 1.6 I experienced that this line discribed a situation similar to being up way past one's bedtime, a time where the concious mind was no longer able to stay focused, time to give into sleep, get quiet and enter hex.2.

 

[dobro p]

That sixth line is often problematic. You know, I'd like to do a comparative study of various 6's to see what can be seen; there are patterns you can spot, but it might be instructive to see not only the patterns but also the exceptions to the patterns. You know, I'd like to start a thread. You know, I think I will.

 

[Trojina]

Yes you do that Dobro, anything to take your mind off human sacrifice, you were beginning to worry me

 

[dobro p]

Yes you do that Dobro, anything to take your mind off human sacrifice, you were beginning to worry me

Yes, perhaps it would be for the best if you never allowed yourself to become my captive or hostage. I mean, if I believed half of what my pals here on this board tell me about myself and my ideas, I could really benefit from a little shining up my rep with a timely offering to the Power That Is.

 

[Sparhawk]

Yes you do that Dobro, anything to take your mind off human sacrifice, you were beginning to worry me

I told you, guys, Dobro is a little demonic... (must be all that caning in Singapore) I'm glad he's into the Yijing and not Mayan history...

L

 

[rosada]

Well here we are at The End of Innocence, folks. what does it mean? I have this little four year old friend up the street and this guy is fed up with patronizing pats on the head and murmers about how sweet he is. Today he told me flat out he hit his little brother because, "It seemed like a good idea at the time." I couldn't argue with that and couldn't think of anything to say. Okay, so the Young Innocent is tried of getting by on his looks and if she's going to stay afloat, the Old Fool here realizes she better start reading up on the "many sayings of antiquity."

That is to say..
25.6 Being innocent doesn't cut it any more, time to Get Smart > 26.

 

[dobro p]

Well here we are at The End of Innocence, folks. what does it mean? I have this little four year old friend up the street and this guy is fed up with patronizing pats on the head and murmers about how sweet he is. Today he told me flat out he hit his little brother because, "It seemed like a good idea at the time." I couldn't argue with that and couldn't think of anything to say. Okay, so the Young Innocent is tried of getting by on his looks and if she's going to stay afloat, the Old Fool here realizes she better start reading up on the "many sayings of antiquity."

That is to say..
25.6 Being innocent doesn't cut it any more, time to Get Smart > 26.

Sure, okay. But I think the specific form of getting smart is in the context of both Hex 25 and Hex 23 (Lofting's got his uses, is what I'm saying lol).

Earlier on I think I said my take on 25 is that a good meaning for it is 'spontaneity'. I think of spontaneity as being 'without entanglement' (wu2 wang4). See, I'm into states of mind. So sue me.

Anyway, in the context of spontaneity, I'd read 25.6 as 'people often think spontaneity has to do with doing something spontaneously. WELL, sailorboy, in this case it means doing nothing. That's right - nothing. The time for spontaneity is past. We're into 23 now, baby doll - the time's stripping away the last vestiges of 25. Follow *that* if you think you can. Follow 'without direction advantage'. You will if you know what's good for you.

 

[Trojina]

'Sailorboy' ? 'Babydoll' ? Whats going on here And why are you bringing 23 into it ?

Anyway 25,6 yes a time to be cunning and machiavellian (sp?) ?

 

[getojack]

I have this little four year old friend up the street and this guy is fed up with patronizing pats on the head and murmers about how sweet he is. Today he told me flat out he hit his little brother because, "It seemed like a good idea at the time." I couldn't argue with that and couldn't think of anything to say.

Well, you coulda slapped the little rugrat up side the head and said, "Hey, it seemed like a good idea."

 

[Sparhawk]

I have this little four year old friend up the street and this guy is fed up with patronizing pats on the head and murmers about how sweet he is. Today he told me flat out he hit his little brother because, "It seemed like a good idea at the time." I couldn't argue with that and couldn't think of anything to say. Okay, so the Young Innocent is tried of getting by on his looks and if she's going to stay afloat, the Old Fool here realizes she better start reading up on the "many sayings of antiquity."

What a great metaphor wrapped in a real, 40 pounds package! The one thing that comes immediately to mind, aside from the fact that this one "thinks", is PUPPIES. I'm sure that everyone has seen puppies, of any kind--dogs, cats, wolves, big cats (lions, tigers, etc.) -- playing cruel games with sharp paws and even sharper teeth, to the point that sometimes they hurt each other. Now, I don't know of anybody that sees these kind of games and thinks anything bad and away from observing pure innocence at play. The fact the little boy, in retrospect, can reflect about his "no-so-nice deed" doesn't take away the fact that at the moment his "innocent impulses" ruled his actions.

L

 

[rosada]

You're spot on, Luis!
We call the little guys The Pup Monkeys!

 

[getojack]

The fact the little boy, in retrospect, can reflect about his "no-so-nice deed" doesn't take away the fact that at the moment his "innocent impulses" ruled his actions.

L

How much of our lives is taken up with making excuses for our innocent impulses? This kid is learning early that if he doesn't want to be punished for his actions, he needs to come up with a good excuse... "It seemed like a good idea at the time." Smart kid.

 

[rosada]

Interesting idea, "A good excuse." What is a good excuse? I guess one that tells your version of what happened so clearly and cleanly that it glides right past all opposing ideas/ energy patterns? And what can get past anything? The Truth, right? It sets you free everytime. But who can tell The Truth so completely that It actually can do what it's proported to be able to do (get you out of any trouble)? Only one who is as innocent as a four year old! He told me, "It seemed like a good idea at the time," with complete trust in ME, I mean, he didn't come up with that phrase on it's own, he heard it from some adult and assumed it was a Worthy Reason to do Something Dumb. He trusted I would recognize this a s a legitamate, acceptable excuse, and so used one of "the many sayings of antiquity" and LO, it stopped me in my tracks!

Not sure what this signifies, but I thought it interesting.

 

[hollis]

Anyway 25,6 yes a time to be cunning and machiavellian (sp?) ?

Hi Trojan, interesting thought, do you really mean this is appropos to the line? Curious. If so, why? Maybe you are joking and I am tone deaf. lol. Even so, it is an interesting thought.

I don't know about anyone else here, but all my experiences with 25 have been sad. Really. Esp. 25 line 6. 25 has always been about something really good, but missed, and just by a step in a 'natural' direction. An understandable step. 'My God, Anyone Would Have Done It.' In 25, I always had a study in what was supposed to be, could have been, but wasnt, because of a (after the fact, stupid) misstep. Seems for good reason 25 comes after 24 line 6. The whole hexagram is a ballad.

 

[lightofreason]

Line 6
"An attitude of non-involvement moves one to make a mistake. To fix the problem stop the movement."

 

[Trojina]

Hi Hollis, I was half joking with the idea of 25,6 being a time to be cunning - using a kind of reverse logic i was thinking if it isn't a good time to trust in innocent spontaneous action must be time to do the opposite. Kind of like what Rosadas getting at - when the time is past to rely on ones own impulses then its time to look to forethought ways of dealing with things - plans/philosophies, looking to the wise sayings of the past to see how to deal with things.

I think the talk about the 4 year old is quite interesting here, though I feel the innocent action in 25 isn't linked to immaturity, that is more hex 4.

Interesting your experience of 25 Hollis, that you found it sad. I can see why because I think the hexagram stresses how a peron may be entirely without blame in their actions yet still suffer misfortune, in that sense yes 25,6 could be sad. Its a time where following the most genuine impulses of your heart does not lead to fulfillment.

Actually its where I most disagreed with others earlier in the thread. Seemed to me everyone desperately wanted to believe bad things never happened to one who was innocent. IMO opinion they do, it is sad yes. One way people deal with sadness and powerlessness is to become cunning I guess. After the first time you get your heartbroken you are never so open and innocent again , you try to stay one step ahead of the game, not show true feelings etc - well speaking for myself of course

IMO human life is sometimes passionately sad and unfair we just have to steer our way through it, can't always comfort ourselves with the logic of 'if I do A then B will happen'.

Seemed to me most here were clinging fervently to an idea i saw in direct oppposition to 25, ie that if only they did A right they could be sure of B turning out well.

 

[getojack]

Interesting idea, "A good excuse." What is a good excuse? I guess one that tells your version of what happened so clearly and cleanly that it glides right past all opposing ideas/ energy patterns? And what can get past anything? The Truth, right? It sets you free everytime. But who can tell The Truth so completely that It actually can do what it's proported to be able to do (get you out of any trouble)? Only one who is as innocent as a four year old! He told me, "It seemed like a good idea at the time," with complete trust in ME, I mean, he didn't come up with that phrase on it's own, he heard it from some adult and assumed it was a Worthy Reason to do Something Dumb. He trusted I would recognize this a s a legitamate, acceptable excuse, and so used one of "the many sayings of antiquity" and LO, it stopped me in my tracks!

Not sure what this signifies, but I thought it interesting.

The point is that no ''excuse'' is necessary if you are truly innocent. And if you just did something thoughtless on the spur of the moment (such as hitting your little brother), then you have a few choices... you can live with it and get on with your life, you can confess to a higher authority (just as the boy confessed his transgression to you), or you can learn something from it and maybe next time you'll stop and think before doing the same stupid thing again. But you can't go back in time and change it... that's what 25.6 is telling you.

 

[rosada]

I'm seeing 25. Innocence now as being about focusing and focus defusing.
25.1 the focus is perfect, it's all about me.
25.2 focus starts to defuse, but nothing beyond once's ability to stay aware.

(I think here of taking a group of preschoolers to a park. At first they are content to stay in a group, but slowly start wandering off in all directions. The teacher must keep an eye on all of them)

25.3 focus has become so expanded the base camp/inner guide is no longer in perfect sync with the outer most explorers. So parts of self that are not physically attached to self wander off with others, be it our cow or just some idea that someone else picks up on and it goes off in a new direction.

25.4 This line is a the crossline between lower earthly experience and the more expanded conciousness of spirit. The focus has now expanded beyond actual happenings and is entering the relm of thought, ideas, spirit, leaving "the cow" the world behind one wanders beyond the "solid" or Safe Zone and starts to experience life as NOT one focus point, but as being made up of an infinite number of cycles and Out of Sync patterns. Thus one becomes aware of Self being more than just solid self, but an energy system of cycles, the mind fast, the body slow, the heart somewhere inbetween. One persevers as that has been one's physical habit established in 25.1.2.3, but now one starts to see Others.

25.5 The mind has so speeded up that we are in the body of others. Pass through quietly or risk getting sick.

25.6
Slow down, you move too fast.
Got to make The Moment last.
Just kicking down the cobble stones,
Looking for fun and feeling groovy.

 

[7towers]

What do you think of this view of 25

Could 25 also mean that in our unawareness of the larger working of things we should be mindful of outcomes in our present moment at all times so that we may discover the realities previously unknown to us . The state of not yet knowing and using the life experience to gain true knowing is what I think its all about. But the transition or crossing or joining these states that of learning what one has to become aware of fully is quite a challenge and one is innocent when they know they lack wisdom but are sincere in the persuit for the purpose of gaining clarity to align itself to the
Tao bringing about harmony not wanting to add to the chaos but due to its current ignorance this being real possiblity. Being prepared to examine the unexpected with an openess for the awareness that is needed. its a very percarious place to navigate.
To stand firm and not berate oneself or become fearful, paraliyzed by the fear of wrong movement because of deep knowing of our not knowing this coming from what we many times believed to be right action turning out to be the very opposite .
This is a humble place but it also can cause a intense anxiety in ongoing movement of life interfering with our ability to percieve and learn what currently is inconcievable to us but must be learned and lived.
I received this answer when I asked about what I could do to not cause anymore harm from my unawareness but instead increase learning and clarity. Does this make sense, I hope I explained what it is I was trying to convey

 

[masami]

page 2 - martin:
man ... you really make me cry sometimes... thank you so much for this martin!!! ♥

 

[elllybellly]

Skipping it across the pond? You've inspired me to skip it across the great water and look where we're heading: 26. the hexagram that lauds the mind, just after 25 has practically praised ignorance! What's going on here? What is going to cause such a dramatic change in values???

Looking ahead at the lines of 25 it appears to me we are going to be following..
25.1 the story of a naive young soul who starts out with a fair amount of beginner's luck and good intentions.
25.2 He finds work to do he enjoys doing and his trusting nature leads him on. But before the harvest comes in and he can retire thinking life is just a bowl of cherries, every misfortune known to Adam falls upon him...
25.3 Other innocent souls just like himself walk off with his cow!
25.4 Fool doesn't know what else to do but just keeps on doing what he's always been doing only now he gets...
25.5 Illness...and it's still not his fault, he's done NOTHING WRONG..and sure enough his belief in his innocence strengthens him to persever but you know what..
26.6 Ultimately this Innocent Fool crap loses it's cache. "I'm tired of having my cows stolen, I'm tired of getting sick, surely there must be something I'm doing wrong or could be doing differently, 'cause Innocence may work in Heaven, but it's not working here on Earth!'

Well, interestingly enough,
25.Spring Fool Innocence (and inevitably, Really Dumb Avoidable Accidents) is followed by..
26. Major Restraint and that the key advice of Major Restraint's Image reads "Thus the superior man acquaints himelf with many sayings of antiquity andmany deeds of the past, in order to strengthen his character thereby." So the young Innocent starts to think and study what others have done in the past. He is no longer so in touch with his original unsullied streight from Heaven Purity, but now he may live a little longer when he learns the ways of Earthings..

Seems to be saying that while Innocence has it's season, we can't keep playing the "Opps, not my fault, it was an accident" card forever. Inevitably we can not evolve without somehow examining our "Accidents", learning where may be we were at fault. How'd we get that cow in the first place? Maybe we took it from someone else oursleves, before we knew about laws and karma. So we thought we were Innocent, but when we got tired enoough of being hurt we were willing to accept there might be something worth learning, we acquired the desire to learn to use our minds, dangerous to our inate virtue as that challenge might be.

26. Taming Power of the Great says I don't evolve beyond Innocence/Accidents until I digest the experiences of the past and learn from them. So here at 26. I must pause and consider the "Sayings of antiquity" and the "many deeds of the past" to see how others successfully negotiated this new challenge - that in my Innocence I have no prior experience with. Thus through study I can learn about cows and karma without having to actually make all the experiences myself.

Or at least I think that's what 26 is going to be about. No need to leap forward to 26 and debate that now. I haven't studied it, I'm just mulling over 25.

This is incredibly helpful.