...life can be translucent

Menu

Memorizing the I Ching 26. Ta Ch'u / The Taming Power of the Great

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
Hmmm, let's quarter this hog... :D

Yes but we aren't talking about actual animals but our metaphorical inner beasts so to speak - so I'm not sure what you were getting at in this post ?

Who says we are not talking about animals? That's all we can really talk about with some property. That comes from empirical observation. All else, as the applying of any given line of the Yi to any given situation is something entirely contextual and subjective. That this line (or the whole hexagram) can apply to the "taming of our inner beast" is purely circumstantial and contextual. I mean, you, me, them, can make that connection at any given time but the line itself is talking about the "tusk of a castrated swine..." :D So..., if I'm cornered and must come up with a connection between the docile eunuch of a pig and our "inner beast" then I have to say that forcing ourselves into an unpleasant, and perhaps drastic position, for the sake of a near term good fortune, is a good thing. :p


If I ask about my wayward spending habits and get 26,4 I restrain myself but that does not mean forcing myself into slaughter and submission( metaphorically speaking ) One can do things that way but it leads to a backlash, isn't really useful in the long run

Well, let's say that you apply "slaughter" to your situation at your own peril :)rofl:) but "submission", specially the one that comes with a "self" in the front, it isn't a bad thing if in the long run "good fortune" is received.

Just wondering why you make this statement about the use of animals at the end of your post ? Are you suggesting this is how we handle our inner beasts ?

Again, who says that this line is only about our "inner beasts". That's a confining statement... (pun intended...) It can apply to many situations, don't you think?

(Should we have a contest on most inventive reason for editing. I see you put 'because its my post annd I can lol)

Yeah! I think those "Reason for editing" are a hoot... LOL

L
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,921
Reaction score
4,426
I wish i could figure this multi quote button but i can't so -in response to your above post is - well its true the line is about the tusk of a gelded boar, and yes to limit it to an inner beast does limit meaning I agree - its just in practise these days i suspect most of us don't ask questions about animals that often :D still i see your point. However i don't agree with you that forcing oneself into an unpleasant/drastic position is how one would apply this to line to oneself - taming/restraint is skilled and intelligent hopefully leading to the harnessing of the power that threatened one - rather than just stripping the 'beast' of its power I think.

Then again I'm not so sure why I think this - maybe cos when I've had this line the danger in the situation is already under control - no drastic action required - I've not noticed 26,4 situations requiring a great deal of submission - the powers already contained.

Ah well maybe I'll re read this thread - its been quite heavy going I think. Thanks for explaining your position Luis anyway - it helps
 
Last edited:

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
However i don't agree with you that forcing oneself into an unpleasant/drastic position is how one would apply this to line to oneself - taming/restraint is skilled and intelligent hopefully leading to the harnessing of the power that threatened one - rather than just stripping the 'beast' of its power I think.

No problem. BTW, I'm not disqualifying your position about the line. Yijing interpretations are very subjective to begin with. Going back to the line though, and this may change contextually under a different situation (remember, I was trying to explain how this line, in my view, would apply to your "inner beast" question), I would think that impulses--many of them, anyway--are pleasureful while taming them is an unpleasant affair. Self-control (the taming of the impulse beast) is never a pleasureful experience, unless, there is a worthy goal to be obtained by it. Even so, the "worthy goal" is always obtained a posteriori.

In the other message I was trying to visualize the extremes of the line. Most situations do not, hopefully, require those extremes. As there are degrees of "taming", there are things that cannot be tamed. Wisdom is perhaps found in recognizing which are which.

Now that I've mentioned "wisdom", if I start to sound like Master Kong, please, somebody slap me out of it. :rofl:

L
 
Last edited:

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
I think it's interesting that when the last line is mastered, the limiting Mountain trigram becomes the flat Earth trigram. It's as if to say, when one is strong within, mountains become mole hills.
 

getojack

visitor
Joined
Jun 13, 1971
Messages
589
Reaction score
10
Nine at the top

[size=+2]上九 何天之衢。亨。[/size]

shang4 jiu3 he2 tian1 zhi1 qu2 heng1
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
Thanks, getojack! Can you tell us what these individual symbols mean? How many different ideograms (right word? Saw it in Karcher.) does one need to know to read the I Ching in the original? I think we should come up with a modern day smilie alphabet:

26.
------:bows:
-- --:eek:uch:
-- -- :brickwall:
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,921
Reaction score
4,426
Have we actually discussed what 26,6 means anywhere yet, can't see it except Rosada s quotes ? In practice what does it really indicate ? Seems to me one of those lines that promises alot - but what exactly ? Is it about attaining what you want ?
 

getojack

visitor
Joined
Jun 13, 1971
Messages
589
Reaction score
10
Thanks, getojack! Can you tell us what these individual symbols mean?

上九
Top Nine/Nine at the top (You should be starting to recognize the ideograms/characters for six and nine by now (liu4 六 and jiu3 九) since they show up so often. shang4 上 means top.


what, why, where, which, how


sky, heaven, god, celestial


(possessive 's)


highway, thoroughfare, intersection


prosperous

How many different ideograms (right word? Saw it in Karcher.) does one need to know to read the I Ching in the original?

I've never counted how many individual characters there are in the Yijing, so I don't know.
 
B

bruce_g

Guest
Line 6 is the culminating result of taming great force. Refined in your abilities, purpose and outlook, you move on, taking the high road, crossing the great expanse.

In practical terms, I see it as opening the way to a secure future. But that security isn't based on external things or on your own bullish determinism. What used to be hard facts and character (mountain) has become open and living (earth). With heaven beneath you (and moving upward), you can move and act freely, trusting yourself and the universe.
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
I really like to have the Chinese characters included in the "Memorizing" threads. I'd be doing it if Getojack wasn't. I think the exploration of the received original text is worthwhile for memorizing the lines. After all, those characters are little images full of ideas.

My opinion of the 6th line, in general terms, is pretty much in line with Bruce's. 26.6>11 is hard to beat as far as combination of hexagrams go.

Legge's has it as:

The sixth Nine shows its subject (as) in command of the firmament of heaven. There will be progress.

Alfred Huang has it as:

Top Nine
How unobstructed Heaven's thoroughfare is!
Prosperous and smooth.

This goes to show how important is to try to get a handle on the Chinese original. The message in all of them is pretty much the same but Huang's perspective is a little off to the side of Western translators.

And then, there is Brad's, who forms it as a question:

What is Heaven's thoroughfare?
Fulfillment.

Perhaps Brad's is a good send off from 26 to 11.

L
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
This is really, really exciting. Interesting that it comes up at hex.26. Like, we can't make further progress until we start looking at the actual Chinese characters and once we do that = yahoo! The Road opens up! Getojack, or Luis, or who ever feels to, is it possible to break down the meanings of the characters as was done with the image for 26 with the scorpion within the mountain? That is, discribe what each image is actually a picture of? That would be such an aid to understanding and memorizing.

BTW, meant to mention while we were focused on line 26.5, "The tusk of a gelded boar", that on that day I went over to my neighbor's house wanting to show something to the older boy but uncertain how to manage it as whatever the one child is doing the other wants to be part of. When I got there it turned out the little one was curled up with his mother taking an afternoon nap. So his energies were calm and docile like a gelded boar, and also I think it's interesting that his mother was napping with him as line 26.5 with it's connection to 26.2 implies the presence a stronger calming guide moving in the same withdraw direction.

Also BTW, I sure think it would be very helpful to have LiSa's, Brad's, Huang's and Legge's interpretations posted here regularly, if that's not breaking any copyright laws.
 
Last edited:
B

bruce_g

Guest
Perhaps Brad's is a good send off from 26 to 11.

I think the fan yao of 11.6 serves as a reminder, that the open way never remains open forever. During such a time, resorting to the old forceful or defensive way is no longer effective.
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
Hi Rosada,

There is a great place on the Net where you can see the evolution of most Chinese characters. Just cut any character you see here and paste here:

Chinese Etymology Home Page

In some cases, there are many, many different versions of a character as their developed, from antiquity to the present.

L
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
I think the fan yao of 11.6 serves as a reminder, that the open way never remains open forever. During such a time, resorting to the old forceful or defensive way is no longer effective.

Yes, the other side of the coin. Interesting to see the city and city walls being surrounded by a moat (11.6), showing again the image of confinement. Protected confinement but confinement, nevertheless.

L
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
Hmm..interesting. 26.6/11.6 The restrictions are released, but also the illusion of being protected. And 27.1 does not look pretty...
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,921
Reaction score
4,426
(Rosada do these little boys know how famous they are becoming ;) When they're grown men if this site is still available they can read their childhood through the hexagrams :cool: )
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
410
Hi guys -
I haven't been part of any of this memorizing thread cuz it was going to focus on the Wilhelm translation and not the Chinese text. I'm glad youse guys are at least posting some of this now. You see from the meanings of he2 above that my making a question of 26.6 isn't so far fetched as it otherwise might seem. Sometimes I see this line as anticipating Maslow - we all proceed along the Great Way by meeting our needs and then moving on.
Brad
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
It would be great if you would feel to post your insights on the Chinese text, Brad!
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
OMG, Trogan, and life being what it is that will probably happen too!
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
410
It would be great if you would feel to post your insights on the Chinese text, Brad!

One of the reasons for writing the books was not needing to hang around to explain them.
Staying away is sort of like practicing for much later when I'll be suffering from death and stuff.
But who knows how much lurking we'll be able to do then?
 
B

bruce_g

Guest
One of the reasons for writing the books was not needing to hang around to explain them.
Staying away is sort of like practicing for much later when I'll be suffering from death and stuff.
But who knows how much lurking we'll be able to do then?

I suspect speaking will be harder than lurking, then, and being heard even more difficult still. ;)
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
Dude, you're freebasing. Calm yourself...
Keep it simple...

Simple, there are at least two forms of pacifying:

1) by use of violence, breaking the animal or your own instincts.
2) by use of love, being friendly, respecting the animal and oneself.

You choose.

Chinese were little farmers and also cattlemen, they knew both ways.
But before they were hunters, they respect the animals, no matter if they killed him.
Chinese whorshiped animals and fecondity.

That's all.


Ah!. I attach an example of what I was speaking about, Dobro.
See:
http://www.sdmuseum.com/museum/LibServlet?req=getWebList&id=38

Yours,


Charly
 
L

lightofreason

Guest
> Simple, there at least two forms of pacifying:
>


For the IC a basic 64 (the 8 level can be too general, the 4096 level too detailed)

> 1) by use of violence, breaking the animal or his own instincts.
> 2) by use of love, being friendly, respecting the animal and oneself.
>

These stem from a focus on replacement of an existing state with one considered to be 'better'.

(1) represents anger (eradicate opposition), (2) represents love (sex, copy, mimic, replicate to flood out opposition)

There are 62 more (or 4094 or 6 - all depending on your scale)

IF we work off the 6 so we also have:

Pacification through fear, grief, rejection, anticipation, surprise, acceptance. (this is all trigram focused).

If we extend one form, e.g. anger, then there are 8 representations in hexagrams of 11,26,05,09,34,14,43,01

These cover the more generic focus on dealing with context, to coexist or replace.
 

getojack

visitor
Joined
Jun 13, 1971
Messages
589
Reaction score
10
Xiang Xiang dies

If no one objects, let's dedicate this thread to Xiang Xiang...

Thu May 31, 5:49 AM ET

BEIJING - The first panda to be released into bamboo forests after being bred in captivity has died, and a Chinese nature preserve official said Thursday it may have fallen from trees while being chased by wild pandas.

The body of Xiang Xiang was found Feb. 19 on snow-covered ground in the forests of Sichuan province in China's southwest, the Xinhua News Agency said. He survived less than a year in the wild after nearly three years of training in survival techniques and defense tactics.

"Xiang Xiang died of serious internal injuries in the left side of his chest and stomach by falling from a high place," Heng Yi, an official from the Wolong Giant Panda Research Center in Sichuan, said in a telephone interview.

"The scratches and other minor injuries caused by other wild pandas were found on his body," he said. "So Xiang Xiang may have fallen from trees when being chased by those pandas."

Heng said the long delay in announcing Xiang Xiang's death was attributed to the need for a full investigation.

"We are all sad about Xiang Xiang, but it doesn't mean the project has failed," Zhang Hemin, the center's head, was quoted as saying by Xinhua. "The lessons we have learnt from what happened to Xiang Xiang will help us adapt and improve the project."

The 176-pound male panda was released from Wolong in April 2006 and had been trained for almost three years on how to survive in the wild. Xiang Xiang, whose name means auspicious, learned how to build a den, forage for food and mark his territory, experts at Wolong have said. He also developed defensive skills such as howling and biting.

According to Li Desheng, deputy director of the Wolong center, Xiang Xiang's case shows that proves that wild panda communities are reluctant to accept male outsiders.

"We chose Xiang Xiang because we thought that a strong male panda would have a better chance of surviving in the harsh natural environment," Li was quoted as saying. "But the other male pandas clearly saw Xiang Xiang as a threat. Next time we will choose a female panda."

State media last year said that Xiang Xiang hesitated for a second when the door of his cage was opened, then scampered off into a nearby bamboo forest where he was tracked by a global positioning device attached to his collar.

He has been buried at the foot of a mountain, about eight miles from the Wolong center, Li said.

There are only about 1,600 wild pandas in the mountain forests of central China — the only place in the world they are found — and more than 180 live in captivity.

Pandas are threatened by loss of habitat, poaching and a low reproduction rate. Females in the wild typically have a cub once every two to three years.
 

waterlily

visitor
Joined
May 1, 2012
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Perhaps The Judgement is giving advice on how to behave when one is trying to restrain the passions. Is the kid jumping up and down and bouncing off the walls?

PERSEVERANCE FURTHERS,
so don't tie him up, he's got to keep moving.
NOT EATING AT HOME BRINGS GOOD FORTUNE.
So send him over to the neighbors for a visit.
IT FURTHERS ONE TO CROSS THE GREAT WATER.
Better yet, send him on a trip across town.

In otherwords, perhaps the Judgement is telling wild unfocus energies can be tamed by being given them a focus, a job to do.

....
Think, for example, of somebody getting angry and biting their tongue so as not to say anything. Great Restraint. 26.

I have not read this whole thread, but I believe both quotes above can be correct and can be correct at the same time. Both are aimed at taming...
 

Lavalamp

visitor
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
1,094
Reaction score
191
Some thoughts after reading the comments here on Hex 26 Taming Power Of The Great/Great Restraint/Raising Big Cattle.

What is being restrained? Some force, ambition - or perhaps as Charly suggested, sexual attraction. How is this restrained?

I think in line 2, it is not important so much to parse what part of the wagon has been disabled or if it was intentional or accidental. The point is sometimes we are restrained by circumstance, if your wagon is broken, if your car needs repair, you are being restrained by being limited in your mobility. This could be a a paradigm for many things.

In line 3, you have had to get out of your carriage and walk. But your horse in a fine one that follows, so doesn't run away if you are patient and take your time. So there you are, you and your love interest walking down the open road leading your carriage horse. Nothing is in your way, although you lack the protection of the carriage. This is progress for the relationship, but restrained by where you are.

In line 4, as Charly indicated I think this is about being restrained by marriage, or perhaps a committed relationship. The marriage commitment is a pen in which you have freedom, within the confines of the pen. (Headboard = pen. Great equivalency I think.) Great good fortune, and auspicious. Also interesting as in line 3 you are daily "building fences" - perhaps the marriage pen/corral.

In line 5, the gentleman has the charm his life experience has afforded him. He has refined tastes, can make women laugh - and he does not need to have sexual conquests in order to feel he is truly a man. His age has mellowed him and his sexual ambitions considerably. He is restrained by the effects of advancing age and accumulated life experience which has mellowed his desires.

In line 6, one's ambitions are directed at the things of highest value, the way of heaven, they serve a higher purpose than one's own person. Such a person is no longer in need of great restraint.

- LL
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
410
What is being restrained?

Entropy is being restrained, on a scale larger than individuals exist,
and in a larger time frame. Dynasty and legacy are two examples,
and culture and civilization in broader terms.
With great effort and a longer vision, things are kept from falling apart.
 
Last edited:

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top