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Memorizing the I Ching. 29. K'an / The Abysmal (Water)

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hmesker

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Ewald,

Do you know this site? I think it enables you to search through all major classical books, which gives you a more complete view of a character's usage.

Harmen.
 

ewald

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Harmen,
I ran into it this morning, and was going to check out whether the search facility was of any use. I'm glad you reminded me. :)
 

Sparhawk

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Wow, Harmen! Thanks so much. This is a great bibliographical reference!

Best,

Luis
 
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bruce_g

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Thankee, Luis.

Harmen, in the words of Bobby Bacala to Junior Soprano: "I'm in awr of you."
 

Trojina

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Rosada i am trying to PM you but your mailbox is full
 

charly

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... I believe that 坎 means 'sound of drumming' instead of 'pit', ... And we know from the Shijing that 坎坎 refers to the sound of drumming...
Harmen:

I like it. Kan-kan sounds ominous as the jungle telegraph (tamtam) and provides a link with shamanism. It remains if we can get better sense for H.29.

The beating of the shaman drum is the most powerful way to induce trance ... repetitive rhythms at certain frequencies can induce a hypnotic state similar to the trance of shamans. Shaman’s drumming, however, does not have a metronome-like steadiness, but rather will slow down or speed up, get louder or softer depending on the state of the shaman’s mind at a given moment. Mongolian and Siberian drums are generally large in diameter and have a deep resonating sound that will vibrate through the shaman’s body, and the drum is frequently held near the face or over the head so that the beat will resonate through the head and upper body with great force.

http://members.tripod.com/Mongolian_Page/shaman.txt

This quote remembers me what Tony of Niza said about self massaging of wolves howling as opposed to dogs barking. Ominous too.

Yours,

Charly
 

charly

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Hi Luis:

I can see in your scan that 習kan were yet in yin bones, but what it meant then?
The upper part are the two wings or plumes.
The lower part don't look like bai (white). Dan Stackhouse sees a face, Lise a sun, modern character is visible white.

Mastering flying as birds do? repeated intents prior to mastering.
The fly of the Sun-Bird? from east to west, also repeated, yet mastered.
The hat of the shaman? repeated plumes, also a master, the pit only goes whith this.

Yours,

Charly
 

Trojina

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There is a particularity of water which people usually forget: it doesn't fill a space as a basin or a pit because it flows, it flows because it fills spaces...

Water is not in permanent flow looking for spaces to fill, water is pretty much quiet and settles immediately if no external factors set it in movement...

Water also doesn't flow with intention or knowing where it goes, it is carried to places by diverse factors, but itself, it always tries to settle down... if you give this a thought, you may find more than K'an in K'an :bows:

Yes thought that was worth repeating - ha realised a kinda pun there . Hmm associating water with emotion and feeling which also seeks to settle it could be said - external factors set them in motion.
 

Sparhawk

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Hi Luis:

I can see in your scan that 習kan were yet in yin bones, but what it meant then?
The upper part are the two wings or plumes.
The lower part don't look like bai (white). Dan Stackhouse sees a face, Lise a sun, modern character is visible white.

Mastering flying as birds do? repeated intents prior to mastering.
The fly of the Sun-Bird? from east to west, also repeated, yet mastered.
The hat of the shaman? repeated plumes, also a master, the pit only goes whith this.

Hola Charly,

IMO, perhaps Dan is seeing somehing akin to the character yue (曰), which is "to speak" and shows a mouth with a word within. I'm very close to LiSe on this. There is also a very good description of the bai (白) in Wieger's:
The sun that just appears. This meaning is represented by a small point (primitive) on the top of the sun. The dawn, when the Eastern sky becomes white (白). Clear, white, bright, etc.

As for 羽, it seems to be the plural for wing, thus, for me at least, a repetition of sorts.

Saludos,

Luis
 
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lightofreason

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Neurologically the qualities associated with the trigram and so the doubled form in the hexagram cover contractive bounding; a border between 'us' and 'them' - be they outside (we reject them) or inside (we enclose them) the focus covers protection. Entrainment is a form of protection - as we socialise or put people in trances etc etc the ROTE learning involved, the repetition involved, initially sets down socialisation and so be 'masked' (e.g. unconditionally in hex 07, conditionally in hex 04).

Due to the self-referencing involved in the creation of hexagrams etc we can get the IC to describe itself through using XOR methods. Thus the generic description of 29 is found in analogy to the general characteristics of 61. Hard exterior, soft interior. The focus is on generic aspects of protection as in 61 the judge goes to bat for the person hard-done-by in the legal system. This particular action of 61 is made generic and seeds the skeletal form of 29.

The opposite is hex 30 and ITS focus on expansive bounding, the boundary is pushed outwards converting difference to sameness rather than focus on contaiment it works off guidance (and so doubled reflects an ideology, a direction)

There are another 63 analogies present to fill in the general details of 29 and THEN comes local context that can amplify some parts, damp other parts, remove other parts, and THAT includes the ancient chinese expressions as they tried to describe the feelings associated with 'contractive bounding'. Wandering around in 10th century BC mindspace will NOT get you the 'big picture' of what we are dealing with here, you will need reference to material focused on information processing in general to see how the IC works and what is in it besides the 'traditional' perspectives.

Chris.
 
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lightofreason

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Note that due to the duality inherent in yin/yang so the STRUCTURAL nature of hexagrams complements the PROCEDURAL nature and that covers FLOW. The best example of flow in the IC is the use of Five Phase that covers, in Western terms, production to consumption.

In this realm of flow, hexagram 29 covers internal distribution (hexagram 30 covers external distribution) and represents 'taking it all in' and so including issues of rejection/rejecting and the wearing of a social mask etc.

Thus the link to water covers the need to contain it else it goes all over place - this containment allows for the benefit of water (gets into conservation of water etc and the social element of water trigram covers the focus on being the provider of the necessities of life and the nourishment of life - if the boundary breaks all of this leaks out (just as things can leak in))

Chris.
 

laureet

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Note that due to the duality inherent in yin/yang so the STRUCTURAL nature of hexagrams complements the PROCEDURAL nature and that covers FLOW. The best example of flow in the IC is the use of Five Phase that covers, in Western terms, production to consumption.

In this realm of flow, hexagram 29 covers internal distribution (hexagram 30 covers external distribution) and represents 'taking it all in' and so including issues of rejection/rejecting and the wearing of a social mask etc.

Thus the link to water covers the need to contain it else it goes all over place - this containment allows for the benefit of water (gets into conservation of water etc and the social element of water trigram covers the focus on being the provider of the necessities of life and the nourishment of life - if the boundary breaks all of this leaks out (just as things can leak in))

Chris.

Very interesting... Perhaps, as an addendum, should also be remembered that containment is not equal to stop flowing but only to stop external exchange. Internal flow or movement must continue otherwise containement gives cause to stagnation.
Generally the Nature solution is either internal replenishment from an undergorund source (which could be similar to own motivation or self generated intention), or internal areas of differentiation by temperature, Ph or density, which will cause internal flow (which could be similar to emotional prioritazing or the eternal fight between logic and emotion)
 

rosada

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THE LINES

Six at the beginning means:
Repetition of the Abysmal.
In the abyss one falls into a pit.
Misfortune.
 

pone

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i never looked at this one as concerning a leap of faith, or a mere perception of danger;

thus the hexagram is intended to designate an objective situation to which one must become accustomed, not a subjective attitude. for danger due to a subjective attitude is either foolhardiness or guile... it is a situation in which a man is in the same pass as the water in a ravine, and, like the water, he can escape if he behaves correctly.

to me that's not a leap, or getting yourself worked up over nothing. the danger is real, just don't lose your head. trust yourself, and keep moving.
 

Sparhawk

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29.1

初六 習坎。入于坎窞。凶。
 

ewald

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thus the hexagram is intended to designate an objective situation to which one must become accustomed, not a subjective attitude.
Never realized before that even Wilhelm mentions the aspect of getting accustomed to the situation.
 

laureet

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Never realized before that even Wilhelm mentions the aspect of getting accustomed to the situation.

That is exactly what water does, it settles, it always has the tendency to get accustomed to the situation (in a pit or undisturbed that is):bows:
 

laureet

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Charly
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmesker
... I believe that ?means 'sound of drumming' instead of 'pit', ... And we know from the Shijing that ?? refers to the sound of drumming...
Harmen:

I like it. Kan-kan sounds ominous as the jungle telegraph (tamtam) and provides a link with shamanism. It remains if we can get better sense for H.29.


Quote:
The beating of the shaman drum is the most powerful way to induce trance ... repetitive rhythms at certain frequencies can induce a hypnotic state similar to the trance of shamans. Shaman?s drumming, however, does not have a metronome-like steadiness, but rather will slow down or speed up, get louder or softer depending on the state of the shaman?s mind at a given moment. Mongolian and Siberian drums are generally large in diameter and have a deep resonating sound that will vibrate through the shaman?s body, and the drum is frequently held near the face or over the head so that the beat will resonate through the head and upper body with great force.

http://members.tripod.com/Mongolian_Page/shaman.txt
This quote remembers me what Tony of Niza said about self massaging of wolves howling as opposed to dogs barking. Ominous too.

Yours,

Charly

Drumming and pit are related. The drum sound was considered to be the sound which may "fill up like water the empty spaces and return like a wave after crashing with the shores" (translation of a Taiko (Daiko) teaching .

"..(the drum sound) fills up all empty spaces in our bodies, carrying us in its flow until it settles and allow us to settle in our own deepness..." Hara discovering technique

It is possible that it refers to depth ? It would fit "sound of drum" and pit as well and follows even interpretations of "fall into" etc
 
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martin

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29. Moon over moon

Hard to describe this one, the moon means so many things ..

First of all, one would expect a 'doubled moon' to be extremely sensitive, always changing in response to influences from the outside. And the inside.
As a system it is 'open', 'unstable' and 'chaotic'. Such systems are hard to understand (not surprising then that I find this hard to describe?) or predict. Like the weather in some parts of the world.
Or the moods of a moody person, let alone a .. lunatic. :)

What is so sensitive needs (seeks) protection and so we have some of the other meanings of the moon (and the sign Cancer and the fourth house, both ruled by the moon): mother, mothering, shelter, home, cave ...

If Neptune stands for the collective soul, the moon stands more for the personal soul (although it is often also seen as a symbol of the 'masses', so there is a grey area here) and the soul is not empty, tabula rasa. It has a past, memories. That's yet another meaning of the moon: our history, our roots, family and so on.

All of that, and more (the moon - with Neptune - also stands for imagination, for example) must be related to this hexagram.
If it is indeed similar to a 'doubled' moon. And I think it is.



Martin

Reputation: parttime astrologer? :)

Disclaimer: this is only my truth - no, halftruth - of today, no, this minute!
Next minute, if there is one, I will probably see things veeeeeery differently ... :cool:

:D
 

charly

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... Perhaps, as an addendum, should also be remembered that containment is not equal to stop flowing but only to stop external exchange... areas of differentiation by temperature, Ph or density, which will cause internal flow (which could be similar to emotional prioritazing or the eternal fight between logic and emotion)

Laureet:

Do you feel well?

You make me think about containment tha's one of the H.29 topics. there are some rules about contents and containers, not the same for all contents, not the same for all containers.

Please, take a look at 盈ying, now imagine you passig it through a morphing program and see it as a pack of popcorn, popcorn up, container down. Popcorn pack can bear more popcorn than its own capacity, popcorn can exceed the container level whitout overflowing.

Now see the 樽zunjiu, if wine exceeds the container capacity, it overflows. Now poor the wine in the 簋gui, much before reaching the container level, it escapes through the holes of the basket. Arid contents are not as liquid contents, not all containers have the same virtue.

The advice could be: keep your own level, don't overflow yourself, and something about how to handle with the basket holes.

Jou Tsung-Hwa says that «Kan or Water is one of the four evil hexagrams in I Ching», I don't believe it. I thik it's about how to behave in danger, advices can fail, but ever is good to have a friend. Ever is good to hear a friendly voice.

Yours,

Charly
 

cesca

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Hi everyone,
This may not be the place for this...but I wanted to let you all know that even though I'm not able to participate regularly in the discussion (I've been away from home a lot this year, and am basically on a pit stop at the moment), I am checking in from time to time...and am finding the 'Memorizing' strings wonderfully useful. Feeling a bit guilty for not contributing though...but will get it together soon.
Warm best wishes to all,
Cesca
 

charly

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Harmen: I like it. Kan-kan sounds ominous as the jungle telegraph (tamtam) and provides a link with shamanism. It remains if we can get better sense for H.29...

Hi, Charly:

Here there is a trying with Harmen's «DRUM» for H.29, a temporary render.

習xi 坎kan | Learnt-Drum(1):

有you 孚fu | have catch (2),
維wei 心xin | keep mind:
亨heng | treat.
行xing 有you 尚shang To behave has merit.

Advice:
Be smart, have clear goals, some «sang froid», some God's help: can fail but is ever right.

Line 1:

習xi 坎kan | Learnt-Drum (1):
入ru 于yu | enter into
坎kan 窞dan | Drum's cave,
凶xiong | fatal !.

Warning:
Don't get into the back-room without permission. Don't enter into others privacy without consent. Results can be very disgusting.

It makes some sense for you?

Yours,


Charly

-------------------------------------------------------------
(1) Sounds like an exotic personal name, must be reversed, attribute first, as «Drum Learnt», learnt by drum, learnt by strong sensorial experience, by repetitive trying or by severe ritual initiation.

(2) «Catch», transaction between two almost opposite meanings: «trust» and «captive / to capture», also considered «claw» and «ant» (Waley): to capture the essential, to take care of the most important, have trust, have strenght, be smart.

(3) «drum»: the instrument and also the person who beats it, «the cave of the Drum» (of the shaman), drums, when not used by the shaman, are often disposed in secret pits; another translation «the cave in the pit» can allude to a cave in an ancient underground house, as that of prehistoric cultures. Both means the same: «entering into reserved places without permission / not well behaved».
 

charly

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... I wanted to let you all know that...and am finding the 'Memorizing' strings wonderfully useful...

Hi, Cesca:

Wellcome !
Send a post or two assap, so we can reply.

Yours,


Charly
 

rosada

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I am stuck in the bottom of The Pit here folks and am having trouble getting access to a computer lately so please continue posting the lines as we have been doing.
 

getojack

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Haven't I seen this pit before? It looks very familiar. Ahh, recognition seizes me... Yes, I believe this is the place where those hideous creatures lurk in the shadows. They hate the light, you know. I believe this is the dark cave of the soul. I can almost hear the ominous drumming. Or maybe that's just my heart pounding.
 

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29.2

Nine in the second place means:

The abyss is dangerous.
One should strive to attain small things only.
 

getojack

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九二 坎有險。求小得。

jiu3 er4 kan3 you3 xian3 qiu2 xiao3 de2
 

getojack

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"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

~Confucius
 

charly

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九二 坎有險。求小得。
jiu3 er4 kan3 you3 xian3 qiu2 xiao3 de2

Getojack:

I temporary translate this using the Harmen's drum:

坎 kan: drummmm! (sound of drum) (1) (2)
有 you: there is
險 xian: risk
求 qiu: seek
小 xiao small
得 de: gains

what do you think about it?

Yours,
Charly

-----------------------------------------------------------
(1) also could be the Drum in the sense of the Shaman or could be the Pit: the shaman is risky, the pit is risky, both the same advice: «if you consult, take care» / «don't go more deeper than strictly necessary» / «if you have a great problem, make before small pieces of it an handle one by one»

(2) ancient storytellers use to make sounds with musical instruments (as drums) or with hands for completing verse metric or for anouncing great sequences or for making suspense, thus I choose «Drummmmm! ♫♫♫ There is risk: seek small gains!»
 

getojack

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Hi Charly,

Personally, I think the single character 坎 shouldn't be translated as the sound of drumming or a drum, but as a pit, as in your note 1 when you say "The pit is risky." Here in line 2, kan isn't repeated, so it doesn't make sense to me as a drumming sound. "The pit is risky. Seek small gains" sounds right to me.

I see it as saying that when you see a dangerous pit, and it seems to be overwhelming, then you just need to take that first step. Kind of like if you're walking across a rope bridge over a canyon. You just concentrate on putting one foot in front of the other, and not losing your footing.
 

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