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Memorizing the I Ching: 32 Heng / Duration

rosada

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Charly,
My feeling is people get more out of the I Ching when they are familiar with the whole book so I am hoping these threads will facilitate getting an overview. I personally am wanting to memorize Wilhelm, but if others want to memorize another version they are welcome to post it here. The real issue is this is supposed to be a thread where everyone feels comfortable contributing what they know without fear their ideas will be shut out by The Experts. So yes, post away with the Chinese insights. I just didn't want this thread to become a place where people got into deep esoteric discussions and fierce debates.
 

frank_r

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32.1.2.3.4: Heng


So what is 32.1.2.3.4 > 24 saying anyway? Any comments or ideas? Thanks.

Hello Getojack,

I have three ways to read 32.1.2.3.4 > 24.

The first is to read all the 4 lines.

The second option is to read the line from the changing hexagram. So in this case I read first line 1 of 32 that is changing in 34. Then I read from 34 line 2 changing in 55. Then I read from 55 line 3 changing in 51. And last I read from 51 line 4 changing in 24.
Then you have a sort time line through the hexagrams. Usually I understand the process of what is going on better than reading the 4 lines of 32.

And the last option I sometimes choose is reading the lowest not changing line from the new hexagram. This line is then describing the proces of all four lines. So in this case line 5 of 24 > 3. Noblehearted return. No remorse(Wilhelm)

I tried all options but depending on the situation most of the times I combine option 2 and three.
 

getojack

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Thanks, Frank. :) I've never tried options 2 and 3... I'll have to try that. I guess option 2 would show more of a progressive change from one hexagram to another, rather than just jumping from one hexagram to another all at once? I'm just wondering if options 2 and 3 are your own personal methods, or if you found it somewhere else, because I don't remember seeing it before.
 

frank_r

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Thanks, Frank. :) I've never tried options 2 and 3... I'll have to try that. I guess option 2 would show more of a progressive change from one hexagram to another, rather than just jumping from one hexagram to another all at once? I'm just wondering if options 2 and 3 are your own personal methods, or if you found it somewhere else, because I don't remember seeing it before.

hello getojack,

I didn't invent those rules myself. here in Holland there are more that follow that rules.
I know that Harmen is writing about option 2 in one of his books.
He is writing also about it on his website.http://i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipity/archives/41-Het-dilemma-van-de-bewegende-lijnen.html
Part is in Dutch other in English.

About option three he is also writing, Personally I got the rule from Han Boering(one of the I Ching experts here in Holland) from one of his books.
He is writing that it came out of the book of Wei- Tat - An exposition of the book of changes. http://www.amazon.com/Exposition-I-...3582028?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190213257&sr=8-2

I'm working with these rules quit some time, they are working fine for me. I would say try it also mayby they also work for you.
 

rosada

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Hmm..nothing much being said here about 32.4 which I suppose is totally appropriate for
"No game in the field."

Looking at your 32.1.2.3.4 > 24 set up, Frank... Maybe this could be interpreted as meaning when you've gone through steps 1,2, and 3 and you come up to 4 and find "no game in the field", it's time to 24. Return to the begining and see where you got off track.
 
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frank_r

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Stop playing ?!

Giving duration to one's character through perseverance.
This is good fortune for a woman, misfortune for a man.

A woman should follow a man her whole life long, but a man should at all times hold to what is his duty at the given moment. Should he persistently seek to conform to the woman, it would be a mistake for him. Accordingly it is altogether right for a woman to hold conservatively to tradition, but a man must always be flexible and adaptable and allow himself to be guided solely by what his duty requires of him at the moment.
 

getojack

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六五 恒其德貞。婦人吉。夫子凶。
liu4 wu3 heng2 qi2 de2 zhen1 fu4 ren2 ji2 fu1 zi3 xiong1
 

getojack

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An alternate translation...

六五
Six in the fifth:

恒其德
Persistent in one’s virtue.

貞婦
A pure woman,

人吉
The people are lucky.

夫子
A young man,


Misfortune.
 

rosada

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Judgment:
Duration. Success. - If you're alive you're a success.
No blame. - You can't get it wrong.
Perseverance furthers. - Just keep on keeping on..
It furthers one to have somewhere to go. - Having a worthwhile goal helps.

Helpful hints:

1. Big promises, little experience: Remorse.

2. Lots of experience, small promises: No remorse.

3. Bad if you keep making promises you can't keep...

4. Or you keep promises not worth making.

5. Figuring it all out takes practice. Ultimately you'll know when to hold'em and know when to fold'em.

6. So give yourself time. You don't have to react to every little change.

Lasting impression:
Choose your goal carefully and stick with it.
 
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getojack

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Yi Lin "Forest of Changes"

32 > 28

重門射平
A heavy door issues calm,

不知所定
Not knowing a place to settle.

質疑蓍龜
Material uncertain… Yarrow? Turtle?

孰可避火
What can escape the fire?

明神答報
The light of god replies, announcing:

告以犧牲
Tell by means of a sacrifice.

宜利止居
Right advantage, stop and stay.
 

rosada

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Curiousity..
Just noticed the similarities in the Judgement for 17. Following and 32. Duration.

17......................................... 32.
Following has supreme success..... Duration. Success. No blame.
Perseverance furthers. .............. Perseverance furthers.
No blame.
 
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getojack

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Can you elaborate on this, getojack?

Verses from the Yi Lin, or "Forest of Changes", written in about 25 BC (Western Han Dynasty) by Jiao Shi. It consists of short poems for each of the 4096 possible changes of one hexagram into another. AFAIK, Harmen and LiSe and some others are working on a group translation of it into English. When I came across it, it was love at first sight. So I'm periodically testing my Chinese translation skills on it. :) You can find the whole thing in Chinese here. And the verses that Harmen, Lise and others have already translated and put online here.
 

frank_r

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32.5

The 5th line of 32 has a connection with line 2, which is the most important of this hexagram. They also resonance with each other as being yin(5) and yang (2).
The second line which is yang on a yin place is in charge. So the female forces are in charge so that the male forces can do there job.

When they work together there can be a proces of Duration, in the middle of trigram thunder there is a possibilty to start new things. And being the top line of nucleur trigram lake there is the possibility to put a lot of creativity and competitive strenght into this new projects.
 

charly

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... I started posting the Chinese characters back a few hexagrams but gave up on it because I simply don't have the time to post them for every line. IOW, just post the freaking Chinese already, Charly...

Thanks, very much:

I had post the chinese text for some lines, not for all. I believe that for surviving the I Ching must give highly polisemic responses compatible with all sort of interpretations, but the text itself is in general very short.

Translations use to give only one meaning and much of the time are trying to make sense adding things of his own.

Is an early tradition to redefine the meaning of inacceptable words in the light of present dominant ideas.

In that context I think that giving the simplest translation, word by word and without taken for granted that the real meaning is the politically correct, is one of the ways for cleaning the field and having freedom for to imaginate all sort of meanings and reasume the original ability of the oracle.

Yours,


Charly
 

charly

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... I for one like to see Chinese texts discussed here and have done so... post the freaking Chinese already...
Luis:

thanks, I know you appreciate the freaking chinese. What do you think about this?


W/B: Restlessness as an enduring condition brings misfortune.

There are people who live in a state of perpetual hurry without ever attaining inner composure. Restlessness not only prevents all thoroughness but actually becomes a danger if it is dominant in places of authority.
Characters, pinyin and W/B:

振 zhen4 Restlessness / hurry
恆 heng2 enduring condition / perpetual
凶 xiong1 misfortune / a danger if it is ... authority

The phrase structure make us think that zhen is an attribute and heng a verb / action but W/B translates zhen a the subject (abstract) and heng the attibute, and sees it as a challenge for authority. W/B had previously translated heng as «Seeking duration» (an action).

Sears says that zhen is
«the action of the hands to pull up», also «to arouse to action / to raise / to rise / to pull up / to save / to relieve / to shake / to flap as wings / to restore order» From: http://www.chineseetymology.org/Cha...aspx?characterInput=振&submitButton1=Etymology

Maybe:
«Flapped seking for duration: misfortune», or...
«When seeking for endurance flaps (dissapears), misfortune overcomes».
Endurance dissapears at the 6th. line.

Un abrazo,


Carlos
 

getojack

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Sears says that zhen is
«the action of the hands to pull up», also «to arouse to action / to raise / to rise / to pull up / to save / to relieve / to shake / to flap as wings / to restore order» From: http://www.chineseetymology.org/Char...ton1=Etymology
Maybe:
«Flapped seking for duration: misfortune», or...
«When seeking for endurance flaps (dissapears), misfortune overcomes».
Endurance dissapears at the 6th. line.

Hi Charly,

I think the meaning of zhen4 as "to flap (as wings)" fits with the meaning of "arousing" or calling to action. If you think about it, a bird flapping it's wings is a pretty good metaphor for arousing someone or something to action.

By the way, the CCDICT gives the following meanings for zhen4:
[1] [v] raise; excite; arouse to action [2] [v] pull up; save; relieve [3] [v] shake; flap as wings [4] benevolent and generous

so zhen4 can also be an adjective, meaning benevolent and generous. But thinking some more about it, I don't think that meaning fits the context here. I think the misfortune comes from arousing something to action which is meant to be persistent and have duration. So I take the meaning to be something like:

Arousing the long-lasting to action: misfortune.


It's in the nature of the persistent to persist, not to be roused to action. If the persistent goes against its Dao and rises to action instead, misfortune will be the result. For some reason, I'm thinking of zombies as a metaphor here, maybe because the new Resident Evil movie is coming out... :) the persistently dead are roused to action and life and you have a whole lot of misfortune with zombies running around eating people and stuff, right? Better to leave them persistently dead. Not that I think this line is about zombies... well, not entirely. :D

Or maybe it's more like:

Continually rousing to action: misfortune

...because if you continually rouse yourself or others to action, then you'll never find duration.
 
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rosada

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Six at the top means:
Restlessness as an enduring condition brings misfortune.

There are people who live in a state of perpetual hury without
ever attaining inne composure. Restlessness not only prevents
all thoroughness but actually beocmes a danger if it is dominent in places of authority.

Restlessness as an enduring condition in a high position is wholly without merit.

Chen has movement for its attribute. Here a weak line is at the high point of the trigram of movement. It cannot control itself and therefore falls prey to a restlessness that is harmful because it is in opposition to the meaning of the time. The line is the opposite of the six at the beginning; there we have movement too hasty to endure, here movement that endures but accomplishes nothing.
 

rosada

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I thought since we were starting to discuss it we ought to post it, but actually before we go too far into 32.6 I had some further thoughts on 32.5...

Has everybody read sushil's article, The Industrial Society Distroys Mind and Enviornment, posted over in Open Space? It's about how Thinking blocks out Feeling and also how Thinking is addicted to change with the result that as Thinking Man has evolved we have become less and less in touch with our feelings/emotions while the Mind wants change resulting in inventing more and more stuff with the result that all sorts of horrific inventions have been allowed to emerge with the likelihood that this distructive cycle will continue until the earth is distroyed. Anyway, it's a fascinating argument that makes a lot of sence and also seems to ressonate with 32.5. If you think of Woman representing Heart/Feelings and Man representing Mind/Thinking then the idea would be that Feelings thrive when life evolves at a slow predictable pace. Home is particularly valued as a place that never changes. Mind on the other hand is constantly scanning the horizon for Change. When Mind constantly creates Change misfortune results. Well, what I'm saying here is not well thought out and clear, but perhaps you will see my point if you read the article.

Anyway, I think the misfortune in line 32.6 stems from Man going beyond the comfort zone of 32.5, going too far, taking on too much, taking too many things into consideration. Maybe 32.6 means, "It's fine. It's perfect. Leave it alone. Quit fiddling with it."
 
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frank_r

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Duration has come to his end, The trigram of thunder is changed into fire. The time of perseverance is over. The expansion from the outside and contraction from the inside has come to an end. It's now clear for our minds what happened. But what will happen next?

There is happened a lot in this thread, a few old members left. There was a lot of emotion because long lasting processes came to an end. But what will bring the beginning of something new, or is it not so new when we have a closer look?
 

Sparhawk

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Ahem! (insert sound of snapping fingers here...) Are we moving on?? Another 32 Hexagrams down the line... :D
 

rosada

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"Restlessness at enduring conditions," Sparhawk?
You are sooo annoying...:p
 

charly

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Giving duration to one's character through perseverance.
This is good fortune for a woman, misfortune for a man.
...
Hi, Frank:

I apologize for not answer you earlier. Thanks very much for your concepts. I post for you three stories corresponding each one to a stage of marriage institution, from S.A.Dange, India, from primitive communism to slavery, a book from wich Needham says «... we have approached ancient Chinese and ancient Indian civilization with ... similar results»:

1st. story:
When Rishi Sudarshana went away from the Ashrama leaving behind his wife, Oghavati, a Brahmin guest came. He was not only fed but, according to the Gana-Gotra custom, when the guest desired, Oghavati slept with him. When Sudarshana returned and leant of this, he was very pleased that his wife had carried out the duties of a hotess.
p.123

2nd. story:
Gautama's wife in his absence is visited by Indra as a guest, who takes her. On learning this Gautama is angry and asks his son, Chirakari, to behead her and goes away. The son is in a dilemma. According to the old custom and moral code he knows, his mother was not wrong and that he as her son, could not kill her. It would be the gratest sin. But according to the new period, the new class relations, family and class law, he must obey his father's order. He waits and ponders. Gautama returns, his anger cooled, and accept the accomplised fact and is pacified.Here the woman and son win, not because of their right, but because the new law is not yet all powerful.
p.124

3rd. story:
Jamadagni finds that his wife, Renuka, just cast a loving glance at Chitrarata Gandharva. He asked his son, Parashurama, to kill her, and he did it there and then. Here the patriarch's right over the wife life is completely established. She has no personality, no liberty, no mind of her own.
p.125

Not all the times were the same.

Yours,


Charly:bows:
 

charly

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... post away with the Chinese insights. I just didn't want this thread to become a place where people got into deep esoteric discussions and fierce debates.
Rosada:

I will try to post more W/B centered comments. I think that my chinese speculations are neither deep nor esoteric but maybe polemic, maybe not too clear. I apologize for this.

Yours,

Charly
 

RindaR

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A late thought about duration...

When a man and woman produce a child, half of each of their DNA is joined together and passed along through the child - there is duration. Without this joining, sacrifice and recombination there is no duration for (a basic part of what makes us) individuals of our species past the time of our death, and ultimately for the species as a whole.
 

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