Memorizing the I Ching: 35. Chin / Progress

[hilary]

Definitely. Working translation for 35's Judgement:

'Prospering, Prince Kang used a gift of horses to breed a multitude.
He mated them three times in one day.'

Subject to revision, of course...

What he'd done to receive the gift was important, but so too is what he does next. He doesn't just turn them out into the field to take their chances.

 

[dobro p]

'mated' ?

He 'mated them'?

jie1 can be 'mate'?

I'm using Bradford's lexicon, and it lacks jie1. Piddle. Am I going to have to get a good, expensive dictionary? Looks like it. In the meantime, 'mated'?

 

[Sparhawk]

'mated' ?

He 'mated them'?

Which is not the same as "he mated with them"...

 

[rosada]

Okay, on that jolly note I think we're ready to progress right along to...

 

[rosada]

35.1
Six at the beginning means:
Progressing, but turned back.
Perseverance brings good fortune.
If one meets with no confidence, one should remain calm.
No mistake.

At a time when all elements are pressing for progress, we are still uncertain whether in the course of advance we may not meet with a rebuff. Then the thing to do is simply continue in what is right; in the end this will bring good fortune. It may be that we meet with no confidence regardless of the situation, but should remain calm and cheerful and refuse to be roused to anger. Thus we remain free of mistakes.

 

[Sparhawk]

I'm using Bradford's lexicon, and it lacks jie1. Piddle. Am I going to have to get a good, expensive dictionary? Looks like it. In the meantime, 'mated'?

Seriously though, I think that Hilary derives (actually, Hilary, is that your own translation?) that translation from some of the meanings of 接 which are: "to connect, join, put together" For example 接吻 (jiewen) is "to kiss," as in connecting the lips.

 

[dobro p]

So now he's a horse-kisser? This is going seriously off the rails.

Okay, let's get down to this: what is it exactly that happens three times in one day in 35?

For jie1, Karcher has this: receive and pass on; follow in office; inherit, as father and son; associate with. He says the ideogram is of 'hand and concubine', and in this he sees things being passed on naturally rather than legally.

Wilhelm/Baynes has 'granted audience'.

Shaughnessy has 'connect'.

There's some serious disjunction in all of this, so where's the center in this cluster of meanings? I'll suggest some possible meanings. Add to them or comment on them:

1 The lord receives three gifts from the sovereign in one day. Unlikely.

2 The lord is received, or granted audience, three times in one day. Possible, but unlikely. If it was a formal award, it would happen just the once. If it means the lord has easy access to the sovereign, that he has the king's ear, then maybe.

3 It's got nothing to do with his relationship with the king, and everything to do with his relationship with the herd of horses. 'Three times a day' indicates the frequency and high level of involvement he has with cultivating and enhancing the herd. Possible.

 

[Sparhawk]

So now he's a horse-kisser? This is going seriously off the rails.

Hey, life at the farm can be lonesome...

BTW, is interesting to note that the character jie1 接 is the joining of the radical for "hand" and the character for "concubine."

 

[Sparhawk]

I just posted an interesting link in Open Space about the rules of Classical Chinese. I think is a cool thread for those that, as me, want to learn to read it with some fluency.

 

[hilary]

Argh, I hate it when people ask me where I get things from. Means I have an anxious 'did I dream this up?' moment before I track it down. This one comes from Richard Rutt's Zhouyi. He's a thorough, scholarly and unimaginative type, and he says,
"There was a great interest in horse-breeding in Zhou times, and mating them as often as suggested was quite possible."

 

[Sparhawk]

Argh, I hate it when people ask me where I get things from.

Argh... (Been watching Pirates of the Caribbean lately?) I only asked if it was your translation--a clear possibility, I may add. For all the books I have, I haven't memorized all the translations--faulty synapses--and Richard Rutt's "Zhouyi" is on the very top shelf --literally-- and I don't to reach for those up there on a daily basis... He makes a good point though and it is good you shared it.

 

[dobro p]

You keep holding her feet to the fire, Luis. She can't be allowed to get away with stuff just cuz she's organized the premier Yi site in the whole world and has made her excellent translation available free of charge to all of us. I mean, that's no excuse.

Accountability, that's what we want.

 

[rosada]

If one meets with no confidence one should remain calm.

 

[Sparhawk]

You keep holding her feet to the fire, Luis. She can't be allowed to get away with stuff just cuz she's organized the premiere Yi site in the whole world and has made her excellent translation available free of charge to all of us. I mean, that's no excuse.

Accountability, that's what we want.

Right on! No excuse, I say... Don't worry guys, I'll be the firewall to Hilary's "radiance." All the ladies, get behind me; you Dobro, at the end of the line in your finest drags...

 

[dobro p]

Right on! No excuse, I say... Don't worry guys, I'll be the firewall to Hilary's "radiance." All the ladies, get behind me; you Dobro, at the end of the line in your finest drags...

Well, it's not her radiance that frightens me, it's her Wilhelmian poetic license, especially all this fast talk about mating horses. But if me in drag is what's required to maintain standards here, then that's the sacrifice I'll have to make, I suppose. But you know, I've heard that some women find sensitive men rather attractive, even despite the eye shadow and glitter spandex. Don't be surprised if you find yourself firewalling all on your onesie...

 

[Sparhawk]

But you know, I've heard that some women find sensitive men rather attractive, even despite the eye shadow and glitter spandex. Don't be surprised if you find yourself firewalling all on your onesie...

Is that you, Eddie??

======>>>

 

[Sparhawk]

I was watching him last night on BBC America. The man is hilarious.

 

[hilary]

I keep members' true identities strictly confidential.

 

[rosada]

35.2
Six in the second place means:
Progressing but in sorrow.
Perseverance brings good fortune.
Then one obtains great happiness from one's
ancestress.

Progress is halted; an individual is kept from getting in touch with the man in authority with whom he has a connection. When this happens, he must remain persevering, although he is grieved; then with a maternal gentleness the man in question will bestow great happiness upon him. This happiness comes to him - and is well deseved - because in this case mutual attraction does not rest on selfish or partisan motives but on firm and correct principles.

 

[charly]

...'Prospering, Prince Kang used a gift of horses to breed a multitude.
He mated them three times in one day.'... to receive the gift was important, but so too is what he does next...

Hilary:

I agre very much with the advice, but some doubts subsist:

• Must we read Kang Hou as a propper name or as a type of Prince?
• To have a horse is always a gift but, does the text speak of gifts?
• Used language has no plural, why horses and not a single horse?
• Was the Prince merely utilitarian, in order to mutiply his patrimony he sends the horse to work?
• Does allowance to mate three times a day supposedly accelerate the reproduction?
• Do you see the King in some place of the hexagram?

Or maybe the Prince who has the gift of a horse generously allows him to make his life, paying a gift with another gift?

As you say, to have a gift is important but more important is what you do with it:

• If you have the gift of a horse you must be generous with him.
  [*]If you have the gift of a mare you must be generous with her.

Yours,

Charly:bows:

 

[charly]

...with a maternal gentleness the man in question will bestow great happiness upon him... in this case mutual attraction does not rest on selfish or partisan motives but on firm and correct principles...

Rosada:

Do you think that the «blessing from the Royal Mother» can justify this speech about the maternal gentleness of rulers, mutual attraction and firm and correct principles?

I dont trust in it.

I believe that the blessing of to have a horse being a gift from the Ancestress must be understood as an allusion to the relevance of experience with significative women in early stages of guys developpment.

Horses, as animals, belong to the Great Godess.

yours,

Charly

 

[rosada]

Hi Charly,
Those aren't my words but a quote from Wilhelm. I usually post not only his translation of the line but also his comment. I can't get back into my posting now give him credit, but i will make a point of crediting him in the future. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. As to whether I agree with him, I'm not sure I even understand him!

 

[Trojina]

I believe that the blessing of to have a horse being a gift from the Ancestress must be understood as an allusion to the relevance of experience with significative women in early stages of guys developpment.

Horses, as animals, belong to the Great Godess.

yours,

Charly

Why should this have anything to do with a guys early stages of development ? Are you trying to superimpose Freudian theory over the Yi - please say not If a woman asks a question and gets this line why would it refer to some guys early development ?

Why do horses belong to the great goddess ? Surely horses belong to the Great Horse

 

[charly]

Why should this have anything to do with a guys early stages of development ? Are you trying to superimpose Freudian theory over the Yi - please say not If a woman asks a question and gets this line why would it refer to some guys early development ?

Why do horses belong to the great goddess ? Surely horses belong to the Great Horse

Troyan:

I'm speaking from my own point of view, of course. I apologize.

Freudian theory gives primacy to paternal influences over maternal ones. I believe there is a woman in earlier stages of girls and guys, maternal care is responsible for healthy development of both.

If a girl gets H.35 can read mare instead of horse, 馬ma = horse is generic, do not specify if male or female. In chinese mom is mama, doubled horse.

In ancient mythologies all the animals belong to the Great Goddess, think at Diana the greek hunter goddess, think at the Force tarot card, a lady opening the mouth of a lyon. Maybe the firsth steps of tamming domestic animals was work of women, caring for wounded wild animals, feeding them in times of scarcity.

I believe that in the YI are stratified meanings of different antiquity, maybe the Royal Mother or Ancestress is a remnant of matriarchad.

Poins of view:

• Matriarchal: Primeval Mother mates a she wants.
• Patriarchal: mates are regulated by economical interests.

Whoever horse breeder knows that for a healthy herd it's of higher importance to care both stallion and mare. They cannot mate as they want. They are presented eachother, no freedom for to choose.

To give freedom to the horse or to the mare is for a breeder a bizarre behavior indeed. Maybe more appropriate for a knight or a lady who has an intimate relation with the horse/mare and can get identified with him/her.

The advice of to increase the herd is something obvious from the economic point o view.

The advice of giving freedom to your horse or to your mare is something more esoteric, has more hiding meanings, I believe.

The reader can choose.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

Hi Charly,
Those aren't my words but a quote from Wilhelm. I usually post not only his translation of the line but also his comment. I can't get back into my posting now give him credit, but i will make a point of crediting him in the future. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. As to whether I agree with him, I'm not sure I even understand him!

Rosada:

I know when you quote W/B. I only ask if you agree with the interpretation. I believe that in this case is pretty forced. Some times I'm not sure if I understand myself.

Yours,

Charly

 

[rosada]

Hi Charly,
I don't know Chinese or any of the more esoteric meanings of the symbols. I can only rely on my own experience to try to figure out the meaning of the hexagrams. For example, while we've been focused on hex.35 I got to watch the video Purple Rain for the first time. The storyline is worthless but the last 10 minutes when Prince actually performs Purple Rain knocked me out. I re-ran the segment three times. Then I noted the words of 35's JUDGEMENT:
"..the powerful PRINCE ..in a single day..is granted an audience three times."
Too cool. So from there I figure, okay, maybe being granted an audience isn't about how fortunate the prince is to be allowed in, but about how really taken the ruler is with the prince's efforts. Whatever. Anyway, as I say I don't know Chinese so I'm going by my experience.
So in keeping with this method I then turn to see what 35.2 might mean in relation to what's going on in my life as I focus on it. Well, my neighbor whom I love, had to leave her abusive husband and go into a shelter. I can't call her but have to wait until she can call me. Today I got a phone call from a mutual friend, someone she had known before we met, an ancestress, who had a message for me from my friend. Thus i plug this into 35.2:
Progressing but in sorrow - going on, but sad I can't connect with my neighbor.
Perseverance brings good fortune - reasurance that I will eventually hear from her.
Then one obtains great happiness from one's ancestress - I hear from her through our mutual friend.

So as you see my interpretations of the I Ching are only for me. But even so, perhaps my take on the lines can be useful for someone else because all talk about the hexagrams is useful for help in memorizing the words.

 

[rosada]

35.3
All are in accord. Remorse disappears.

A man strives onward, in association with others whose backing encourages him. This dispels any cause for regret over the fact that he does not have enough independence to triumph unaided over every hostile turn of fate.

"All are in accord," because there is a will to go upward.

This line is quite close to the upper trigram Li, clarity, hence misunderstandings are cleared up. Since it is at the head of others of the same mind, progress is possible for it.
-Wilhelm

 

[charly]

Hi Charly,
I don't know Chinese or any of the more esoteric meanings of the symbols. I can only rely on my own experience to try to figure out the meaning of the hexagrams... So as you see my interpretations of the I Ching are only for me. But even so, perhaps my take on the lines can be useful for someone else...

Rosada:

Of course, your interpretations are not only for you, surely useful for others. I believe that there are many common aspects between your approach and the mine:

You apply as main principle the consistency with personal experience and emotions, me too.

You like female solidarity and reject abusive persons, me too.

You know nothing of chinese, me pretty nothing.

The only difference maybe is that I don't trust all the things W/B say mainly in the added commentaries.

I believe, against W/B that Higher Status persons (Superior Men) are not main protagonists in the YI stories.

Maybe main protagonists are «Equals», members of some brotherhoods: lower nobility, shamans, neghbors, women, children, animals, plants, friends, parents, and of course, elements. I find most of them in your posts.

Yours,

Charly

 

[rosada]

Well thank you, Charly! As I said, I don't think I understand enough to disagree with Wilhelm, but I do consult other sources to get a wider understanding. I am trying to memorize Wilhelm's words however, I guess because he is so succint. Actually I am considering starting a thread one of these days on the trigrams. When you understand the trigrams suddenly the hexagrams make much more sence.

Personal experience the other day with with

35.3
All are in accord. Remorse disappears.

A friend came by and told me she is joining Weight Watchers. Wilhelm points out specifically that this line points to a situation requiring group support to master.

If anyone has further thoughts on 35.3 now would be a good time to post them. I'm intending to post 35.4 this afternoon so we can get to 35.5 on Christmas.

 

[Trojina]

I never take 'superior man' as talking about a 'higher status person' it is just a model for ideal behaviour of one who is acting in accord with the flow of the times - it never crosses my mind to think it as any type of person