Memorizing the I Ching. Hexagram 14. Ta Yu / Possession in Great Measure

[rosada]

"Possessions as private property can never endure." Been spending my days sorting through my mother's belongings. Who will take care of these cherished possessions now?
Letters and pictures from forgotten friends and relatives. They weren't my world. As her memory fades they lose all meaning.

 

[rosada]

14.4

Nine in the fourth place means:
He makes a difference
Between himself and his neighbor.
No blame.

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 14.4

Line 4
"One's nature is interpreted as being forceful and overbearing. One should be weary of outshining one's ruler [i.e. give way]."

with/from directing (14) comes holding firm (26) - the imposition of 'tried and true', traditional, historical, perspectives can be an irritation. The comment reflects the hierarchic focus on the relation of minister (line 4) to king (line 5).

Chris.

 

[ewald]

Has anyone any idea how Wilhelm got to his translation of 14.4? I can't see anything in the Chinese that might be translated as "difference" or "neighbor."

匪 其 彭 ，
旡 咎 。
​

匪 - is not
其 - this, that, his, her, its, their, one's, our, my
彭 - proud / flourishing, plenty, much / sound of drum / "Old Peng," a mythological figure in classical Chinese literature, said to have lived several hundred years.

彭 is obviously crucial for the meaning of this line. I can think of meanings of 14.4 that make sense with any of the translations for it. I have found only one forum thread where something is said regarding this line, but it's not conclusive.
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=699

For the time being I have chosen 彭 to mean "pride," so that the meaning of the line is something like "Acknowledging something one isn't proud of."

 

[bruce_g]

Ewald,

I think the “He makes a difference between himself and his neighbor” in Wilhelm expresses the elements of “pride”, in that there’s a temptation to imitate those around you, who have some sort of wealth. You begin to act as they do, which is prideful. I know you don’t see 14 as possession, but this is how I see it. Comparison with those around you who have more than you do, is also a related meaning: the grass is greener type of thing. So it becomes necessary to redefine yourself (and your worth) apart from how you see others – no blame. No bragging rights either.

 

[ewald]

Hi Bruce - I see being proud as valuing one's own accomplishment. Pride is being proud like that, but it can also mean having an inordinately high opinion of one's dignity, importance, merit, or superiority.
Either way, I have difficulty seeing how pride can bring the temptation to imitate those around you.

 

[lightofreason]

Eranos gives:

In-no-way one's preponderance
without blame

preponderance covers P'eng as "forceful, dominant; overbearing, encroaching. The ideogram: drum beats, dominating sound.

My interpretation covers a relationship of this bright, arftul, minister with the king in that the interpretation gives a warning of being SEEN this way (even if not) and so to be wary

Chris.

 

[martin]

Legge uses the word 'resources' in his translation of line 4 ('its subject keeping his great resources under restraint') and this makes me wonder if 'great resources' is perhaps a better name for hex 14 than 'great possessions'.
Or maybe 'being resourceful'?

Resources can be material (money, land, etcetera) or immaterial (talent, smartness, etc) and the emphasis is not so much on 'having' them as on how they can be used.
It seems that in line 3 there is a tendency to confuse these two, i.e. one is tempted to 'sit on' ones resources instead of using them. But in line 4 postponing their use for a while is the right thing to do.

 

[bruce_g]

Resources, domain, possession, assets, presence - what’s the difference, aside from semantics? And imo, the same goes for context. It can pertain to material wealth, inner riches or resources, all depending on the context. When a meaning is reduced to only one acceptable word, the focus of context is equally limited. Since - as Brad has pointed out here in the past - hex 14 represents 1/64 of all there is, the meaning is too large to be reduced to a singular narrow definitive English word. Take your pick and run with it.

 

[ewald]

The character that Legge translates with "resources," and Bradford with "domain," is 彭, which in the Yi only appears in 14.4. The character 有 from the hexagram name is a different one. It appears in 104 lines in the Yi, in most instances meaning "there is." So it kind of surprises me that Martin and Bruce want to have one particular translation of 彭as a hexagram theme.

The theme of "resources" is in my opinion already covered in 48. The Well (and also in 27, if you like).

 

[bruce_g]

So it kind of surprises me that Martin and Bruce want to have one particular translation...

Thought I was saying just the opposite. I'm for opening it up not narrowing it down. Yes, of course it needs to be focused enough to lead in a direction, not in 360 degrees. 1/64 of the whole human/universal pie is a mighty big piece.

Same or similar word-idea meanings cross over to different hexagrams, i.e. 14-48. There is such thing as over discrimination. Galling limitation, so to speak; and it doesn't always have to be arrived at through a literal word distinction or some other known system of discrimination.

 

[martin]

the meaning is too large to be reduced to a singular narrow definitive English word. Take your pick and run with it

Of course. You cannot reduce the meaning of a hexagram to one word or even 10 or 100 words. But some words are better than others and the English names of hexagrams are important for Yi users. They should at least point more or less in the right direction.
Depending on what you pick (for example 'possessions' or 'presence' ) you might run to very different places, like NYC and the Arizona desert.

 

[martin]

Crossed posts. I do understand your point.

 

[ewald]

Thought I was saying just the opposite. I'm for opening it up not narrowing it down.

Sure. I wasn't particularly precise in expressing my point here.

I don't think "resources" is really part of the general theme of hex. 14. Perhaps "having," as a special case of "presence" can in some instances be in this context, but "resources" as yet another special case (of "having") is one or two steps too far for me.

I do think "presence" is pretty broad, and pretty much covers its part of the (two character) hexagram name of 14.

 

[martin]

The character that Legge translates with "resources," and Bradford with "domain," is 彭, which in the Yi only appears in 14.4. The character 有 from the hexagram name is a different one. It appears in 104 lines in the Yi, in most instances meaning "there is." So it kind of surprises me that Martin and Bruce want to have one particular translation of 彭as a hexagram theme.

The theme of "resources" is in my opinion already covered in 48. The Well (and also in 27, if you like).

I didn't mean to say that the word 'resources' is a literal translation of characters in the text of the Yi. My idea was only that it covers the meaning of the hexagram better than 'possessions'. So it's more like a free translation.
The feel of 48 is very different. Resources - maybe yes, but more basic, satisfying basic needs? Also less easy to access ...

 

[martin]

I think 'presence' fits also, btw. A kind of royal presence maybe.
If the king or queen disguises as a beggar one can still feel and see his or her 'presence'. It's an inner quality.
Is that what you mean?

 

[ewald]

It's in part what I mean.

Another way of wording my hexagram name would be "Being there in a noble way," or a "great way."

The nobleness/greatness is in the sense of being magnanimous.

The "presence" is about not going away from the reality of a situation, where that would be easier (for instance, 14.1 not going away from the realization that one is causing harm, 14.3 not going away while one is the only one in a position to do something, 14.4 not dismissing the notion that there is something one isn't proud of, etc).

 

[Trojina]

The thing with 'presence' though is its a given isn't it, I mean if you 'are' then you are 'present' ,cannot but be so. If you are meaning 'presence' in another sense, as in presence with the idea of dignity or nobility then you'd have to qualify the word 'presence' to show thats how you mean it. There isn't any time an aware entity doesn't have presence is there (?) and some would say even what we might think of as inert has presence.

How do you mean 'prescence' if not simply 'being' or 'awareness' ? Can you give an idea of when 'presence' is not ?

 

[Trojina]

Hi Bruce - I see being proud as valuing one's own accomplishment. Pride is being proud like that, but it can also mean having an inordinately high opinion of one's dignity, importance, merit, or superiority.
Either way, I have difficulty seeing how pride can bring the temptation to imitate those around you.

Backtracking I'm not sure why you can't see pride would make one try to imitate those around one. Perhaps when you compare what you have, what you are doing with what you seeing others having or doing you feel inadequate (your pride hurts) and think you must strive to be like them. Line 4 advises in my view to hold true to your self and not go running after things because you think you should be like others.

 

[ewald]

How do you mean 'prescence' if not simply 'being' or 'awareness' ? Can you give an idea of when 'presence' is not ?

I guess we crossed posts, as I just explained.

 

[Trojina]

Resources can be material (money, land, etcetera) or immaterial (talent, smartness, etc) and the emphasis is not so much on 'having' them as on how they can be used.
It seems that in line 3 there is a tendency to confuse these two, i.e. one is tempted to 'sit on' ones resources instead of using them. But in line 4 postponing their use for a while is the right thing to do.

This interpretation of line 3, that it may involve the temptation to sit on ones resources makes alot of sense to me. After not having a car for a long while I asked about one i wanted to buy and got 14,3. I didn't really understand because I thought it meant I needed to put it at others disposal - but that didn't fit at all, wasn't practicable nor did anyone need it. Now I think it was about me fretting about spending the money, wanting to hold on to it. BTW great buy (so far)no regrets yet

I think thats what I've often missed with line 3, I always think its about giving out to others, but I think it can also be about giving to oneself. One can be stingy with oneself afterall more than with others sometimes.

 

[ewald]

Backtracking I'm not sure why you can't see pride would make one try to imitate those around one. Perhaps when you compare what you have, what you are doing with what you seeing others having or doing you feel inadequate (your pride hurts) and think you must strive to be like them.

Okay, I see the reasoning.

You can arrive at the notion, as you say, that your pride hurts when you compare yourself to others. But that's not a necessity. If your pride is about being the best and superiority, it is, but you can also be proud of something that is an accomplishment while you know that many others are better than you at it. If you're bad at math, for instance, but you manage, with a lot of work, to pass the math exams you thought would be next to impossible to pass, you can be proud of that accomplishment. Someone else passing exams with even more perseverance won't matter to you, you're just rightfully proud of your accomplishment.

 

[Trojina]

Okay, I see the reasoning.

You can arrive at the notion, as you say, that your pride hurts when you compare yourself to others. But that's not a necessity. If your pride is about being the best and superiority, it is, but you can also be proud of something that is an accomplishment while you know that many others are better than you at it. If you're bad at math, for instance, but you manage, with a lot of work, to pass the math exams you thought would be next to impossible to pass, you can be proud of that accomplishment. Someone else passing exams with even more perseverance won't matter to you, you're just rightfully proud of your accomplishment.

Yes thats the whole point of what I feel 14,4 is about, not to worry and compare how you are with others, measure your accomplishments by your own standards (as in the maths example you give) or you will get lost.

But you disagree this is the meaning of 14,4 ? You say it is about not dismissing something you are not proud of ? In other words admitting fault to yourself ?


Ultimately I'm interested in meaning, the words to get there are the tools.

 

[ewald]

You say it is about not dismissing something you are not proud of ? In other words admitting fault to yourself ?

Yes.
I also say that I'm not clear on the meaning of 14.4, as several translations are valid. The word "pride" can be seen in at least two ways, and the Chinese character 彭 there, can also mean "sound of drum" or "plenty." Lise for instance has "Not at all sounding one's drum."

 

[ewald]

Trojan - I'm not sure why the "confused" emoticon. Do you have a problem with the concept of acknowledging fault, or something? People deny fault all the time, in order to avoid feeling to have little worth.

 

[Trojina]

Trojan - I'm not sure why the "confused" emoticon. Do you have a problem with the concept of acknowledging fault, or something? People deny fault all the time, in order to avoid feeling to have little worth.

No, I was confused because on the one hand you seemed to be possibly agreeing with the idea that pride might make one attempt to compete but your interpretation is very different in that its about admitting fault. No of course I don't have a problem with the concept of admitting fault, who would ? I was just checking with you thats what you think this line means.

 

[ewald]

I've dug a bit deeper than earlier with the hexagram index, and found some more threads where situations are described where 14.4 is thrown. I'm not sure whether and how this is meaningful, but 2 of them are from musicians, and the character 彭 means (o.a.) "sound of drum."

musician not getting gigs
musician worried about not being able to duplicate the magic of a previous recording
someone feeling foolish about wanting to talk to someone who is leaving her
worth of a penny stock

I think "It is not one's pride" as a translation does fit for these situations. I'm not getting a clear sense of superiority issues, comparing oneself to others, or frustrated bragging, but I wouldn't rule it out. "Not at all sounding one's drum" if it would mean something like "keeping silent, instead of proudly telling everyone" does seem to work in a couple of instances, but I'm not really convinced of the "telling everyone" part.

Apparently, something that one would have been proud of isn't happening. I'm not so sure anymore about the "acknowledgment" part of that, it doesn't seem to be a major aspect of the situation.

 

[bruce_g]

Drums can be and have been used for many purposes. There’s drum beating for rain, a harvest, before or while hunting, for weddings, for war, and also to communicate with others long distances away. So it’s worth considering that ‘not beating ones drum’ can mean not telegraphing or broadcasting your thoughts, plans or possessions to your neighbors.

 

[ewald]

One could also translate 匪其彭 with "It is not one's drum sound," perhaps meaning something like "one is not being called." I imagine something like that there might be several ways of drumming that call specific regiments of an army into action.

 

[rosada]

14.5
Six in the fifth place means:
He whose truth is accessible, yet dignified,
Has good fortune.

The situation is very favorable. People are being won not by coercion but by unaffected sincerity, so that they are attached to us in sincerity and truth. However, benevolence alone is not sufficient at the time of POSSESSION IN GREAT MEASURE. For insolence might begin to spread. Insolence must be kept in bounds by dignity; then good fortune is assured.
-Wilhelm