...life can be translucent

Menu

Memorizing the I Ching Hexagram 18. Ku / Work on What Has Been Spoiled [Decay]

L

lightofreason

Guest
rosada said:
Chris,. I wish you would value your insights more. If you did, you would care enough to write them up in a manner others could relate to.

just to make a point about language:

(1) Chris uses a language "IC+"
(2) Others use a language of 'traditional IC"

Those using (2) are using a language circa 10th century BC and LACKING descriptive elements that are part of the language in (1). Despite this, those using (2) demand that the language (1) come up with a translation of the findings of IC+ using the less efficient language of (2)! -- this sounds like lazyness or ignorance or simple vanity or all three!

If language A is better than language B then one attempts to understand A in that it will incorporate all aspects of B that are useful and add more. Simple. It is like the days when good Physics papers were in German so in English universities German was included as a language to learn; translations were considered 'approximations' and not capturing some of the nuances of German that got the message across.

In IC+ the language is English sprinkled with specialist terms from IDM and its reflections on neurosciences, psychology, anthropology, physics etc etc etc (Just as the traditional IC is chinese sprinkled with specialist terms re mythology, legend etc)

IDM shows that IC+ transcends the traditional perspective and as such has a richer language set to learn.

Chris.
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
rosada said:
18. Ego choosing to relinquish waking life and follow chi into the land of dreams, there to see, understand, what maybe "wrong" and recreate the physical world.

Perhaps a descent into the underworld (Hades)?
I have the feeling that hexagram 18, as it is traditionally understood, doesn't go that 'deep' :eek:, but perhaps there are similarities? :)
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,174
Chris,
For me the problem is I just don't understand how your system is applied to an actual situation. When you respond to a poster's question, say, "Does she love me?" it seems you come back with a page of numbers. If you were to phrase your answers in sentances that reflect how you go about determining your "best fit" and clearly state your final conclusion I might be able to evaluate whether deeper study of IC+ has any value for me.

If you feel to do this, please start a separate thread.
 
L

lightofreason

Guest
rosada said:
Chris,
For me the problem is I just don't understand how your system is applied to an actual situation. .

You seem to think the IC is only about divination etc. If that is the limit of your interest then use the Emotional I Ching. The preamble is at:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/EmotionalIC.html

or go direct:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/icplusEProact.html

For all of the other material work through:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/newindex.html

.. or are you another one who does not like to follow links and so wants it all put on this list! ;-)

As for 'all numbers' you need to be more specific - where, when - ask questions etc

Chris.
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,174
Martin,
Thank you so much for this decent into the underworld (Hades) article! I think it fits right in with the 18 experience. In fact, it triggers many ideas but when I tried to write them out it got too complicated. perhaps after they calm down abit...
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,174
Chris,
What part of "start a separate thread" don't you understand?
 
L

lightofreason

Guest
rosada said:
Chris,
What part of "start a separate thread" don't you understand?

The websites are there to be used - not to be dumped on this list. Follow the links, read the material, ask questions - as to a seperate thread on this list for questions - they already exist - LOOK and ye shall find.
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,174
THE IMAGE

the wind blows low on the mountain:
The image of DECAY.
Thus the superior man stirs up the people
And strengthens their spirit.

When the wind blows low on the mountains, it is thrown back
and spoils the vegetables. This contains a challenge to im-
provement. It is the same with debasing attitudes and fashions;
they corrupt human society. To do away with this corruption,
the superior man must regenerate society. His methods like-
wise must be derived from the two trigrams., but in such a way
that their effects unfold in orderly sequence. The superior man
must first remove stagnation by stirring up public opinion as
the wind stirs everything, and must then strengthen and
tranquillize the character of the people, as the mountain gives
tranquillity and nourishment to all that grows in its vicinity.
- Wilhelm
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
Did your ideas calm down a bit, Rosada? :)
I always thought of theosophists as too 'bookish' and maybe they are. But their writings are very interesting sometimes. I once came across a passage in one of their books (cited somewhere else) that described in detail an experience I had had a few years earlier. Stunning.
What this article says about Hades also sounds very familiar. :eek: :)
 
L

lightofreason

Guest
IC+ 18

Image :
"[With cultivation comes discernment]: [ Correction.] One stirs up the common people to support 'the Way' (tao). [fight the corruption]."
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,174
Thanks for asking Martin. I tried to write out my thoughts but the whole thing became sort of heavy and sticky and goopy like wet dough so I put it aside. But trying again, I'm going to see if I can write out my ideas in stream of conciousness fashion rather than being limited by complete sentances. Not required reading! Okay, there seems to be a story evolving here about a single Conciousness, maybe a single cell and how it manages to make itself Strong and Untiring so as not to burn out and die and become UNconcious. First we have hex 1 pretty much discribing getting up in the morning and going full bore all day and then Hex 2 being shutting down, sleep? Death? Anyway Unconcious. And then 3, the beginning, only 1 was the beginning, so 3 is like being born again, a new beginning, a realization that while this is the beginning it's not The Beginning and there are difficulties sorting out what was then what is now and where do we go from here? 4 is the Fool who thinks he is the First One Ever, but he's not, there were many before him, there are many ahead of him. This problems of Where Do I Begin? and What Am I Expected to Know? And What Am I Not Supposed to Know? And How Can I find Anything Out? start here. I could blather on now about what I'm seeing in the continuing twists and turns of the hexagrams, but the theme I'm getting is how we can connect with other conciousnesses so that rather than just living for one brief moment - hex 1 - and then going unconcious - hex 2 - there seems to be a message surfacing here showing how we can can stay concious through all the changes. And the key seems to be having to do with connecting with others. 18 seems to be like a repeat of hex 2, but now instead of going Unconcious, the soul is following a guide that allows him to conciously travel through the underworld, allows him to see all the pain of broken hearts and unrealized dreams and souls that never had a chance or a guide or an I Ching, and because the Seeker has this guide or faith or lodestar, he is able to do this without losing his conciousness or going mad and then when he reaches rock bottom he is at 19 and realizes what he came to the planet to do. Which I'm assuming will be something along the lines of connecting with all other souls and leading them back up to Light 20. Well, we shall see. Anyway, different way of looking at things for me because I had always assumed that Hex 15 was the "perfect" man, perfect way to be, but now I'm thinking we are invited to be more than just good foot soldiers, we are invited to see the needs of others and be of service, connect and in that way literally live forever.

By the way, It was Sparhawk's observation about Dogs being our role models that got me on this track. Does anyone know what the Islamic law has against dogs?
 
Last edited:

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,174
The Lines

Six at the beginning means:
Setting right what has been spoiled by the father.
If there is a son,
No blame rests upon the departed father.
Danger. In the end good fortune.

Rigid adherence to tradition has resulted in decay. But the decay has not yet penetrated deeply and so can still be easily remedied. It is as if a son were compenstaing for the decay his father allowed to creep in. Then no blame attaches to the father. However, one must not overlook the danger or take the matter too lightly. Only if one is conscious of the danger connected with every reform will everything go well in the end.

"Setting right what has been spolied by the father.'
He receives in his thoughts the deceased father.

When the first and top line change, this hexagram becomes T'ai, PEACE, in which the father, Ch'ien, is below and the mother, K'un, above. Hence the recurrent idea of improving what has been spoiled by the father or the mother. this line stands in an inner relationship of receiving to the strong line in the second place.
-Wilhelm
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,174
Hi Folks, or I Ching Chat Chums as I like to think of us,
I have gone back on my plan to proceed slowly taking two days to process each line. It seems to me with all focus on deaths going on recently, James Brown, Saddam, Ford, 3,000 G.I.s not to mention Newcomer's thread, we need to get through this hexagram asap. So for 18 anyway, if there is no objection, my intention is to post a new line each morning and get us the heck out of here.
 
Last edited:

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
That fast? :eek: I probably won't be able to keep up with the astrology then.
But I was thinking that discussing every line from an astrological perspective is perhaps a bit too much anyway. So I will skip that from now on.
I will continue with the stories for the hexagrams as a whole, though.
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
When the first and top line change, this hexagram becomes T'ai, PEACE, in which the father, Ch'ien, is below and the mother, K'un, above. Hence .....
-Wilhelm

Huh?! What is this? Did good old Wilhelm take an orange pill or something before he wrote that? :D
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
martin said:
Huh?! What is this? Did good old Wilhelm take an orange pill or something before he wrote that? :D

Is the "red" pill, Martin, the red one; "down the rabbit hole" :D

L
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,174
Oh, hey, wait, no! I'm really enjoying your astrological I Ching insights, Martin. I was just finding to many weird similarities between 18 and my personal life and thinking, hmm, maybe it's not a good idea to do this, but I can handle it, not a biggie. Please give us your ideas.

Meanwhile I'm having a lot of fun reading the quotes Brad has posted on his hermetica website. Such jewels as..

There was a man from Dundoo
Whose limericks stopped at line two.

Anyway, we can go slow if it means people posting!
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
Lol, yes, probably red, in any case not blue .. :D
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
Okay. :)
18.1 Mercury in Aries - fresh ideas, new ways. Easily breaks with tradition and is direct, honest and resolute.
The 'old man' (Saturn) was just and fair, but perhaps he hesitated and compromised too much (Libra).
Whatever the old structure is, Mercury in Aries will probably simplify it and replace the maybe's and 50-50's in it by yes or no.
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,174
Or the new (Aries) idea (Mercury) fits easily, balances or readjusts (Libra) the old (Saturn, exhaulted, happy, in Libra). so Old ideas and flaws are balanced easily by a new one. Like if Father should have painted the house but son comes in and remodels it so it doesn't matter whether the house was painted.
 
Last edited:

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
Yes, that's another possibility. There are so many ...
With the IC - and with astrology - I sometimes have the feeling that it is like those probability waves in quantum physics.
The meaning of a hexagram or line remains fuzzy until it appears as an answer of the oracle to a specific question in a specific situation. Then the wave 'collapses', everything falls into place and the picture becomes sharp.
Well, sometimes .. :)
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,174
Yeah, often seems until there's an actual situation these lines have infinite possibilities...Have other people experienced a sence of folks just being really cranky lately? That's what's been going on in my world. Seems to me that since Saddam was hanged and Bush disempowered (well sort of, by the last election) there's been a sort of looking around for someone new to blame. So when I talk to people they seem to have stopped complaining about the parents, but are now blaming the older sibling. Like the "father" is no longer blamed if there is a son we can now make the bad guy. So "son" had better come up with a new solution or instead of Father's memory being denegrated, son will simply get blamed for all of father's flaws. Like if you were to move in to an old fixer upper and DIDN'T fix it, before long people blame you for the broken windows, even though it was the former owner who broke them.
 
L

lightofreason

Guest
Line 1
"Through neglect and a blind faith in tradition an imbalance has occurred. The next generation must fix it."
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
Let me see if I get this right: we are at message 54, with this one, and we are still on Line 1?? This thread is rotten!! (very fitting, of course...) :D

L
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,174
Nine in the second place means;
Setting right what ha been spoiled by the mother.
One must not be too persevering.
 
L

lightofreason

Guest
IC+ 18.2

Line 2
"Through weakness an imbalance has occurred. It is fixed quietly."

with/from correcting comes blocking/discerning The 'quiet' part comes from mountain being 'still' and all activity is within.
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,174
If we apply my tarot game to 18 then we would be looking at

18.1 Emperor (Aries) Magician (Mercury) Justice (Libra) World (Saturn).
This suggests that someone with a clear fresh point of view is able to get agreement from the rest of the world. Thus the son (Emperor) with a clear idea (Magician) is able to restore balance (Libra) and the old man (Saturn) is released to follow his tao.

How can someone easily change a situation with just a new idea? Simply renaming it is one way, as in, "I wasn't run out of town, I was leading a parade they were giving in my honor!"

18.2
It would make sence that setting right what has been spolied by the mother would take a bit more care. "The Mother" could represent the Unconciouss and would represent someone who perhaps didn't have the authority to make various decisions, but could only do as The Father - the concious mind - instructed. For example if The Father has said "We will live here" and it is then The Mother's role to set up the house or the physical component to Father's Word and then Father leaves, well, it was not the Mother's idea to set up the house and she's not the one who left, but she is the one who has made it manefest. I guess I'm thinking , "How do you change an effect, if you can't get to the cause?" Mother being the Unconcious which only responds to the command of the Concious Mind. If the Concious Mind that set the wheels in motion no longer exists, how do you stop the wheels? I guess you just have to let this play themselves out..
 
Last edited:

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
18.2 Saturn in Scorpio suggests deep roots and something that is not easy to change.
If it's about a tradition it may be a tradition that is based on deep rooted values. (possibly unconscious as Rosada says or in any case difficult to reach or change)

Mercury in Taurus would not touch these values - out of respect or because it can't reach that deep or both - but limit itself to practical (Taurus) adjustments.
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,174
18.3

Nine in the third place means:
Setting right what has been spoiled by the father.
There will be a little remorse. No great blame.

this discribes a man who proceeds a little too energetically in
righting the mistakes of the past. Now and then, as a result,
minor discords and annoyances will surely develop. But too
much energy is better than too little. Therefore, although he
may at times have some slight cause for regret, he remains
free of any serious blame.

This line is at the beginning of the nuclear trigram Chen,
the eldest son, hence the image of work on what has been
spoiled by the father. The line is too strong to be in the strong
place of transition. Therefore it might be thought that the
situation would lead to mistakes, but good intention com-
pensates in this case.
-Wilhelm
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top