Memorizing the I Ching Hexagram 18. Ku / Work on What Has Been Spoiled [Decay]

[frank_r]

18.6 moutain is changing into earth, from a personal earth perspective to a infinite earth perspective.

Interesting, the 3 generations:
LiSe

The Hun, the pure soul(in contrast with the Po the corpural soul), is remembering our impressions. These impression we store in our blood(House of the Hun) normally we store people for three generations, child, parents and grandparents. After that we are forgotten as living creatures with our personal history. Than our pure soul, our personal soul is disapeared. The moutain-earth part of us is gone.
But a part from us always lives further, impressions we had, have a imprint on a DNA level and have a influence for many generations, this is the earth - earth part.

So in 18.6 there is a change that goes further than what the father, mother and grandparents had as a influence.

 

[rosada]

From The Taoist I Ching, Thomas Cleary:

18. Degeneration
Correcting degeneration is greatly developmental.
It is beneficial to cross great rivers. Three days
before the start, three days after the start.

EXPLANATION
"Degeneration" means deterioration. As for the qualities of the hexagram, above is "mountain", STOPPING, and below is 'WIND", PENETRATING: it represents one yin entering and yang stopping it. Also, wind is inside stopping, representing stopping the yin so that it does not advance upward; it includes the meaning of correcting dangerous degeneration.
This hexagram represents abandoning the false and returning to the true; it follows on the preceding hexagram, "joy". "Joy" is harmonious action in accord with the time and in accord with the truth, not acting in anyway that would be improper, so as to prevent degeracy of action. When people are first born they are utterly good, with no evil, integrated with natural principle. Originally there is nothing to cultivate, nothing to realize; since there is no defect, there is nothing to correct. But when they get to be sixteen years old, yang peaks, producing yin; by the development of habits they become estranged from what is nearby and nature. This is like the one yin of "wind" arising below two yangs; as negative energy advances, the original being degenerates.
However, before the celestial Tao has yin, it cannot be yang; before human affairs have degeneration they cannot be repaired. This is why the path of correction of degeneracy is valuable. The path of correction of degeneracy is like the one yang of "mountain" stopping on top of two yins, not injured by negative influences. Using this one yang to go back to the root and return to life is the study of working on the fundamental. When the fundamental is established, THE PATH DEVELOPS. Once you recover your potential, it is like it was always there; this is attaining great development in degeneracy.
..

That's about half of it, but I'm a slow typist. If people are interested I'll complete it.

I'm postponing starting hex 19 until manana. "Before the starting point, three days.." and all that.

 

[Sparhawk]

See, you've got a suspicious and wary personality, just like me, so you scan for difficulties and things that might jerk you around or thwart you. Do you see how your personality might be projecting meaning onto 18.6 which is either not there, or not there for many people?

Yes and no. Yes insofar that in interpreting a reading I'm just a human being and although I strive to be as objective as possible, I am still me (suspicious and wary personality included.) No in that I don't get the impression of being alone in my interpretation. I never expected to be right, but, in a subject like Yi interpretation, who really is?

L

 

[dobro p]

No, it's not about rightness or aloneness, I think. I'm all for 'if it works for you, it's what you need'. I'm just comparing ideas. You've changed my idea of 18.6 - now I think it's even more blessed than I thought it was before, because the person who draws this line has *also* managed to make it under radar in addition to having an aim really worth working for for a change. I'm really happy with that idea.

 

[bruce_g]

Uff, Cleary’s not very clear. Seems a complicated way of saying keep it simple.

 

[bruce_g]

Luis, you have a suspicious and wary personality? I’d describe you more as curious and objective.

 

[frank_r]

That's about half of it, but I'm a slow typist. If people are interested I'll complete it.

Yes please do, Thanks

Frank

 

[rosada]

I'm going to try to paraphrase what I think Clearly is saying...

He makes a point of saying that a child is first born in a natural perfect state, nothing spoiled to work on yet, but that then as the child matures he loses touch with his roots. This is illustrated by the bottom trigram not being yang, yang, yang but rather yin and then yang, yang. It's as if the life force has moved forward but as it was not fully concious in the beginning, not grounded, as the life proceeds the early foundation deteriorates. I think of this as comparable to our short term memory. We can remember yesterday, but tomorrow we will not be able to recall back that far. Tomorrow we will only be able to remember today and our memories of yesterday will have started to degenerate, to spoil, and we will need to work on what has been spoiled in order to remember and to be able to make progress in the future least those who cannot remember the past be condemed to repeat it. So Working On What Has Been Spoiled is about how you don't need to repair a memory until you start to forget it, but when you do start to forget then it is a great blessing to stop the forgetting and go back over the foundation because then you get more in touch with your true path. I think "TRUE path" is a revealing term, because the truth is easy to remember. When we forget something it's probably because we misunderstood something at the time and misfilled the experience in our memory. When we carefully go back over what actually happened we find this misunderstanding, rectify it and then we remember more clearly, can see why things have progressed as they have and can again find our "true path."

Anyway, that's what I'm seeing so far. More quotes in a bit. Is posting from an author's works like this legal? I mean, how much can you post before it's plagerism or something?

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis, you have a suspicious and wary personality? I’d describe you more as curious and objective.

Well, Dobro labeled me with that, perhaps because he recognized some familiar traits in me, and I cannot completely disagree with it, really. On the other hand, I think it may be a matter of degrees. Perhaps not really "suspicious and wary", something that in the extreme may border with paranoia, but "cautious" may be a better fit. And "cautious" though, is a hat that fit all diviners...

And thank you for your assessment. I certainly am very curious and I pain to be objective, something I fail at more than succeed.

L

 

[Sparhawk]

You've changed my idea of 18.6 - now I think it's even more blessed than I thought it was before, because the person who draws this line has *also* managed to make it under radar in addition to having an aim really worth working for for a change. I'm really happy with that idea.

I have? Well, I'm honored and happy that some shared ideas find resonance.

L

 

[rosada]

Yes, Luis, they do indeed. After posting my thoughts on 18 I had an interesting experience. After I was very clear about what I saw in 18 suddenly I got a visual of a cartoon: a knarled tree and it had eyes and a smile and it winked at me like, "Don't tell anybody I'm here!" Just what you've been saying! What I got from this is that when we are clear enough about our own vision that we don't feel threatened, don't think we'll lose it if we don't cling to it, we relax and then actually see things from the other person's perspective. It's not a matter of right or wrong, but different perspectives and what fun to see things from someone else's point of view!

What's also interesting to me is that after I had this insight I came back to post it and found that dobro was also posting he was beginning to get what you were saying. Like some sort of group clarity coming through...

 

[rosada]

More from Cleary:

Great development is not in degeneration but in correcting degeneration. The way to correct degeneracy is not in empty tranquility without action; it is necessary to work in the midst of great danger and difficulty, to act in the dragon's pool and the tiger's lair. Only then can one restore one's original being, cultivating it into something indistructable. This is why degeneration is developmental, and it is beneficial to cross great rivers. Great rivers are most dangerous and hard to cross; if great rivers are crossed beneficially without injury, then places of little or no danger cannot harm.

However, the benefit of crossing great rivers involves action and process, from which no deviation can be admitted. "three days before the start, three days after the start" IS THE SECRET OF ACTIVE PROCESS {my caps}. The yin and yang in people is like the waning and waxing of the moon. In the first three nights of the moon's appearance, the yang light appears in the southwest. this is represented by the trigram THUNDER (solid, broken, broken).On the night of the fifteenth, the moon appears in the east. This is represented by the trigram HEAVEN (solid, solid, solid). On the thirteenth,fourteenth, fifteenth, the light comes round; this is "three days before the start." On the sixteenth, seventeenth and eigthteenth, the light begins to wane; this is "three days after the start." When people's energy is pure, this is "three days before the start." Once their yin energy has arisen, this is "three days after the start."
Before the start is yang. After the start is yin. This is the boundry o fprimordial and temporal yin and yang. People who practice the tao need to know clearly whether things are degenerate or not.

It is all in this boundry of "Before the start" and "After the start."

When yang energy is about to become pure, ward off yin to preserve yang; {What does that mean?}
after yin enrgy has arisen, repel yin to restore yang {???}.

If you ward off yin energy before it arises, and repel yin energy after it arises, then the yang energy that has not degenerated can be preserved, and that which has been degenerated can be restored.


This is the real science of working on the fundemental, getting rid of falsehood, and returning to reality. Correctness is unfailingly developmental, development is unfailingly beneficial.
-Thomas Cleary

 

[Trojina]

More from Cleary:

Great development is not in degeneration but in correcting degeneration. The way to correct degeneracy is not in empty tranquility without action; it is necessary to work in the midst of great danger and difficulty, to act in the dragon's pool and the tiger's lair. Only then can one restore one's original being, cultivating it into something indistructable. This is why degeneration is developmental, and it is beneficial to cross great rivers. Great rivers are most dangerous and hard to cross; if great rivers are crossed beneficially without injury, then places of little or no danger cannot harm.

Before the start is yang. After the start is yin. This is the boundry o fprimordial and temporal yin and yang. People who practice the tao need to know clearly whether things are degenerate or not.

It is all in this boundry of "Before the start" and "After the start."

When yang energy is about to become pure, ward off yin to preserve yang; {What does that mean?}
after yin enrgy has arisen, repel yin to restore yang {???}.

If you ward off yin energy before it arises, and repel yin energy after it arises, then the yang energy that has not degenerated can be preserved, and that which has been degenerated can be restored.


This is the real science of working on the fundemental, getting rid of falsehood, and returning to reality. Correctness is unfailingly developmental, development is unfailingly beneficial.
-Thomas Cleary

Wow I'm definately not a Cleary fan, but if others are, don't mind me.

 

[dobro p]

Well, Dobro labeled me with that, perhaps because he recognized some familiar traits in me, and I cannot completely disagree with it, really. On the other hand, I think it may be a matter of degrees. Perhaps not really "suspicious and wary", something that in the extreme may border with paranoia, but "cautious" may be a better fit. And "cautious" though, is a hat that fit all diviners...

And thank you for your assessment. I certainly am very curious and I pain to be objective, something I fail at more than succeed.

L

Aww, I hope I haven't hurt your feelings. "Suspicious and wary" does sound a bit negative, I suppose. Maybe it's just *me* who's suspicious and wary, and I'm projecting it on *you*. Anyway, the reason I said that was cuz you were emphasizing the possible obstacles and hurdles in the 18.6 situation, which is what a person does when they're wary - they're always scanning for stuff that can screw them up - they often worry more than other people too. And they often make people laugh a lot too - it's a kind of defusing of the situation cuz it makes them feel more comfortable - sort of a 'if you're laughing then everything's okay' sort of perception. And you're right - it's on a scale, and when you see that and feel that, then you're free of black-and-white thinking. Ta-daaa! Anyway, feel free to invite me to take my musings and muse with them by myself lol.

 

[Sparhawk]

Aww, I hope I haven't hurt your feelings. "Suspicious and wary" does sound a bit negative, I suppose.

.....

Ta-daaa! Anyway, feel free to invite me to take my musings and muse with them by myself lol.

Of course you didn't hurt my feelings! Like I said, I cannot refute the assessment completely. I am very cautious person, too much perhaps. And you don't have to go anywhere, the more the merrier. (well, that sounded like an early 70's orgy... LOL!)

L

 

[rosada]

Yeah, Cleary is pretty dry stuff. Still he gave my mind a stretch. Before letting go of this thread I'm wanting to write out MY newly revised interpretation of the lines just cause I think this is a useful thing to do at the end of the hexagrams. Perhaps others would like to post theirs.

18.1 It seems to me I only hear the word "decay" connected to "tooth decay" and maybe this does give a good metaphor for the hexagram. So consider in the beginning perhaps Young Sprout realizes he didn't inherit a great set of teeth genes, or maybe it just wasn't tradition in his family to visit a dentist regularly. Whatever. Young Sprout vows to take better care of his teeth than his folks did and starts brushing regularly and since he started doing this before he had any cavities, there's no blame attached to the Father.

18.2 If the family tradition of not taking care of the teeth and the habit of not brushing went on for too long, the neglect results in real decay. But it would not be appropriate to pull all the teeth out, or at least don't do it all at once, ouch!

18.3 Okay, the teeth have got to go. No fun and maybe you pull out a few that only needed crowns, but after it's done Little Sprout looks great. Especially when you consider the alternative...

18.4 The teeth that didn't get pulled only get worse. The poison spreads through out the body. Now all the teeth have to come out.

18.5 Little Sprout finds an able helper/dentist that puts everything right. Fabulous. Thank you.

18.6 Once all is put to rights, Little Sprout has learned to take care of his new teeth and never worries about the drama with the old.
---

Okay, I've posted Hexagram 19, Approach, which I was reluctant to do because it seemed to me that at 18 it was necessary that we bring everything up to date at this point, clear up any misconceptions before moving forward. And since I for one have NOT memorized all the lines 1 - 18, I was thinking maybe we should go back to 1.1 or at maybe rename the project. Now, however, I think that while 18 was saying at this point we recognize where the foundation is a bit shaky, rather than going back to the beginning or abandoning the study, 19 says perseverance furthers, keep going. Of course, Inevitably the holes in our understanding will reveal themselves - "misfortune in the 8th month" - but if we have at least learned how to listen to and share each other's points of view, we'll be able to survive.

Onward!

 

[frank_r]

Thanks for the insights

Was a intersting thread I learned a lot, and had some insights in things which "were spoiled over the years".

 

[heylise]

View attachment 162 Hexagram 18
Worms in a dish

 

[Sparhawk]

 

[emiliana2010]

I came to read this veeeeeery long post because I received 18.3.6>7 to my inquiry about how to respond to what happened to me the other day at work.

I hope I can help shedding some light on 18.6 which has sparked an interesting discussion.

I work a few hours a week in an office. The other day I was about to leave when, in order to be paid, I told the owner how many hours I worked that week. As he often does before paying me, he started to rumble that I cost him a lot of money and that the day before I left a neon light on and that's money he loses, that I drink the office coffee which costs money and blah blah blah.

Something snapped in me in that moment and I reminded him that he was forcing me to work black since three years, (how much do I cost him?), that during the lockdown I have not been entitled to any government support because of it and... and we were interrupted by his wife who stormed in as a hurricane yelling at me all kinds of wrong things that supposedly I had done and that costed them money.

Oh really? You know what, I quit!

The owner then was trying to minimise what his wife was saying (yelling) to me, and also minimising what I was saying (I was not yelling at that stage yet) back to her.

To make a long yelling short, I felt that I had enough. By then my time to yell had come so, yelling, I broke them the news that I was going to report my situation to the Labor Inspectorate. Let’s see if I cost you too much, let’s see if you neglected a few of my rights, and enough of having to beg every time in order to receive my pay.

At that point she grabbed me by the shoulders and shoved me out. Physically. I was shocked.
After some more “**** you” and “**** off” yelled at each other from across the street, the scene was over.

My question to the Yi Jing has been:
How should I respond now to the situation that flared up at work? 18.3.6>7

Yeah, the situation is a spoiled one.

18.3 tells me that I must have been too energetic in wanting to right the image the owner was having of his duties towards people working for him. It also speaks of the fact that I don’t repent a single bit about having done so, which is very true.

18.6 Yes, I loose some income, but I DON’T CARE!
(He does not serve kings and princes) I don’t want to feel miserable in order to get some money so I quit.
(Sets himself higher goals) I value more my dignity and wellbeing.

Dignity… I feel my dignity is wounded after she shoved me out! Dignity, dignity… It hurts.
I’ll have to see to that.

 

[rosada]

You have inspired in me a new title for 18. Work on What Has Been Spoiled:

18. How to Make a Long Yelling Short.

 

[emiliana2010]