Memorizing the I Ching Hexagram 4

[ewald]

I currently have for 4.2:

Embracing the ignorant brings good fortune.
The contribution of a woman brings good fortune.
A child is able to keep a household.
​

I don't quite see why the Chinese character for "child" should be rendered as "son" here, as Wilhelm has.
I'm still undecided about the first and last sentences of this line.

The character 包 basically means that something is around something else. It can mean "embracing," but also "surrounding" (and a lot more), so "Being surrounded by ignorance" would also be possible.

The character 家 is usually translated with family, house, household, keep a household. It can however also mean specialist/expert, or specialism/expertise (being "at home" in a particular field). So "A child can be an expert" is also a valid translation of this sentence, and it makes a lot of sense to me in this context.

 

[ewald]

I contemplated this one for a while, and decided to change my translation to:

Being surrounded by ignorance.
Good fortune.
The contribution of a woman brings good fortune.
A child can be an expert.
​

Here's some thoughts on why:

There's apparently a woman (or wife) and a child around here, so "being surrounded by" does make sense in the first sentence. (I'm not so sure about the alternative "embracing," as I think the Yi would have something like "allowing" or "accepting" in this sentence instead.) Apparently they are considered to be "ignorant," initially.
"Contribution" fits in my opinion a lot better in this context than the alternatives that have been posted in this thread. In the context of ignorance, I don't see why there would be a sexual meaning to 納.
I decided to let the child be an expert. "Expert" is a nice opposite of "ignorance," and the Yi has a lot of such contrasts.

 

[rosada]

Hey Trojan,
How about, "The only time I ever made a mistake was the time I thought I was wrong.."

 

[rosada]

Hexagram 4.3

4.3
Take not a maiden who,
When she sees a man of bronze,
Loses possession of herself.
Nothing furthers.

 

[Trojina]

LOL reminds me someone told me if asked at a job interview what you think
your worst fault is best response is "my worst fault is that I do not believe I have any".

Hmmm re 4,3 I remember getting that one time and no exageration it felt somewhat like the shock of a slap. it was one of those times I immediately got what the Yi was saying to me personally, at that moment. I won't go into detail but it wasn't a romantic situation but it was a situation where I'd handed over any good sense I had into the keeping of another, lost my self possession....if it hadn't been for the Yi I don't think I would have figured that on my own quite honestly. Thats why I don't get the 'Yi is just a tool' idea. How can a 'tool' be infinately cleverer than you are ?

 

[Trojina]

So my point was in my experience 4.3 can be about suspending your own judgement, abandoning your higher principles because for some reason you have glamourised another.

 

[rosada]

Yeah. Like 4.2 says the kid looks great enjoying his own life, and it is good to consider what even a little guy might be able to contribute to the group. But 4.3 cautions one mustn't think this fellow or anyone else can take better care of you than you can for yourself..

 

[nicky_p]

But 4.3 cautions one mustn't think this fellow or anyone else can take better care of you than you can for yourself..

Actually, this also reminds me of another aspect of my childhood - not the line necessarily, well maybe (4 reminds me of childhood )

When I was about 12 I went to the beach with my dad and step-mum. Paddling in the sea I stood on a weaver fish and the spines broke off into my foot. I couldn't put my foot down onto the hot sand without screaming and neither my dad or step-mum knew what was the matter with me. Actually they got pretty mad at me - I was screaming so loud. My foot was swelling fast. We had a massive argument and in the middle I was inspecting my foot. Luckily I managed to find the spine in my foot and pull it out. Immediately the swelling started to go down and by the time they got me home I was pretty much OK - which made them even madder! I got a load of stick for it until about a week later a friend of my dad's also stood on a weaver fish on the same beach. A big burly matlow had to be rushed into hospital because of the same fish that I stood on. My dad appologised profusely and I think we both learnt from the experience. Me: that I know predominately when something isn't right with ME! Dad: When I'm screaming there REALLY is something wrong!

Sometimes people supposedly in 'charge' or 'in the know' don't always 'KNOW' and if you really FEEL something is wrong - listen to it.

 

[bruce_g]

Good story, Nicky. All good stories! Putting real faces on the meaning of these lines.

 

[Trojina]

Dwelling on 4 does seem to make one recall childhood and adolescence. I'm thinking of the 'man of bronze' being the 'in crowd' at school or college, or the head of that crowd. I I don't know how it happens but one kid always seems to gain supremacy in a gang and somehow becomes the 'role model', they're either the coolest or the prettiest or the smartest, I don't know what it is but they gain alot of power (not always in a good way) I reckon every child/teenager has sometime gone along with something they really don't want to do, that they don't think is right or whatever because they need the favour of being in with the gang with all the priviledges that entails. I guess its quite hard for children to do otherwise, they would have to be very confident in their own selfhood.

 

[Trojina]

Yeah good story Nicky. I remember one time cutting out and sticking pictures in a book when i was about 4 with my grandma. I could see she was doing it the hard way, plastering glue on the book not on the pictures, making a mess. I was dying to suggest my way of doing it but I kept quiet thinking she would be angry that I was cheeky but in the end I could stand it no longer and told her what i thought. To my suprise she said something like "what a good idea, why didn't you say before". I remember being so shocked an adult had actually taken my advice, well the memory has stayed with me.

 

[rosada]

I am completely ga - ga over the 3 and a half year old and his little 2 and a half year old brother that I keep an eye on every morning. There is nothing I wouldn't do for those kids. Is this what grandmother's feel? Maybe it isn't the best for children to have "grandma" willing to spoil'em rotten, but as for me, lead on my bronze buddies, I am helpless to resist.
...
Trojan: Just read your comment about how meaningful it was for you to have an adult take you seriously. I'll use that tip with the littl guys. Thanks!

 

[hilary]

4.3 is the Corruption (18) of Not Knowing. That makes intuitive sense to me. I think the problem isn't just that she thinks he's made of money or status or what-have-you, but that she has cast herself a solid, clanging image of him and thinks she knows. (Sound of blaring klaxons - error! error!)

Here's a quotation that I think might fit:

‘The anima produces moods, the animus produces opinions, resting on unconscious assumptions instead of really conscious and directed thought.

As the mother is the first carrier of the anima image for the boy, so the father embodies the animus image for the girl, and this combination seems to exercise a profound and lasting fascination over her mind, so that instead of thinking and acting for herself she continually quotes father and does things in father’s way, even late into life.

In the course of normal development the animus becomes projected onto many male figures, and when this projection has been made, a woman takes for granted that a man is as she sees him (ie in the guise of the animus), and it is almost impossible for her to accept him as he really is. This can be very troublesome in personal relationships, which can only go smoothly so long as the man conforms to the assumptions that the woman is making about him.’

From Frieda Fordham, An introduction to Jung’s Psychology.

 

[bruce_g]

4.3 is the Corruption (18) of Not Knowing. That makes intuitive sense to me. I think the problem isn't just that she thinks he's made of money or status or what-have-you, but that she has cast herself a solid, clanging image of him and thinks she knows. (Sound of blaring klaxons - error! error!)

Here's a quotation that I think might fit:

‘The anima produces moods, the animus produces opinions, resting on unconscious assumptions instead of really conscious and directed thought.

As the mother is the first carrier of the anima image for the boy, so the father embodies the animus image for the girl, and this combination seems to exercise a profound and lasting fascination over her mind, so that instead of thinking and acting for herself she continually quotes father and does things in father’s way, even late into life.

In the course of normal development the animus becomes projected onto many male figures, and when this projection has been made, a woman takes for granted that a man is as she sees him (ie in the guise of the animus), and it is almost impossible for her to accept him as he really is. This can be very troublesome in personal relationships, which can only go smoothly so long as the man conforms to the assumptions that the woman is making about him.’

From Frieda Fordham, An introduction to Jung’s Psychology.

Wow. I think this speaks well to hex. 44, as well as to 4.3 (love your analogy!), especially the first part: "‘The anima produces moods, the animus produces opinions, resting on unconscious assumptions instead of really conscious and directed thought."

 

[rosada]

And now we see what such projections can lead to...

 

[rosada]

Hexagram 4.4

4.4
Entangled Folly brings humiliation.

 

[ewald]

Surprisingly, none of the online dictionaries that I regularly consult has something like "humiliation" or "shame" for 吝. They all say "stingy" and variations on that. Only the Unihan database mentions "narrow-minded thinking" in the Japanese section for 吝嗇.

To be stingy is to not give enough. Usually that is not wanting to give money, but what if we take that as to not give enough effort? That makes sense in the context where this character is used in the Yijing.

I'm translating it as "inadequate."

 

[ewald]

It is good to know that the first character in 4.4 is the same as the name of hexagram 47.

 

[rosada]

So how would you interpret it then?

 

[ewald]

I'm translating 47 with Suffering. So I have for 4.4:

Suffering by inexperience.
Inadequate.
​

I see it as a situation where one is acting without having enough experience to do so. One is not up to the situation.

 

[bruce_g]

Ewald, that feels right to me.

adlibbed:

4.4 When a youth follows a crowd (i.e. Trojan’s example), he can not extricate himself easily. This leads to personal loss and suffering.

 

[rosada]

Or how about when Mom or Dad judges junior's efforts to be Folly and tries to counsel him, uninvited?

4.4 When one gets tangled up in someone else's business, they will find their understanding/help is not adequate or appreciated.

(I'm trying to figure out the progression from throwing oneself way for the man of bronze, to entangled in folly. The old, "You're perfect! I love you! Now change!")

 

[Trojina]

How do people take 4.4 when they receive it I'm wondering ? l Its like you've been warned in 3 not to follow this projection/fantasy and its probably quite beguiling so maybe you would rather continue on with the fantasy. As you do continue with false ideas about what this person is like or how they see you - you get tied in knots, maybe this can turn into obsession and for a while you don't see clearly at all.

On reflection for me this line has often been about being lost in a fantasy, travelling further and further away from reality.

 

[rosada]

Yeah, and how does one evolve out of this confusion to the beautiful 4.5?

 

[Trojina]

Well when one comes down to earth with a bump as one always must eventually from any entangled fantasy/folly for a while one feels a bit er stupid Feeling stupid can make one feel a bit humble and in such a frame of mind one is far more receptive and ready to learn.

Or another way maybe this is the moment a person gives up plotting and planning and begins to engage more spontaneously with life ?

 

[rosada]

Makes sence. I guess we'll find out more tomorrow....

 

[bruce_g]

I think it’s well to remember that hex. 4 is a learning experience, and though there are real dangers associated with line 4, it too becomes part of the lessons that youth must learn. This can be the 3 year old imagining they rule the roost, or a teenager thinking they rule the roads, or an adult thinking they rule the world. Better that they learn early, and hopefully escape without serious injury to themselves or anyone else.

I’m not advocating corporal punishment, neither am I advocating no corporal punishment, but a timely swat on the tush – figuratively or literally – can "enlighten" a child into line 5. (a further thought) This is something that will happen, whether the parents or elders correct the child or not. Fate, karma, whatever, will see to it.

 

[rosada]

I'm thinking about the progression of the lines and 4.3. It seems to me now that the Man of Bronze could represent one's own inflated vision of oneself. Like Dad says "Take good care of the house while I'm gone. You're terrific You're a natural born leader!" And the kid stops thinking little kid thoughts and gives himself up to this Man of Bronze fantasy. And then 4.4 is little kid trying to live life as a Man of Bronze and of course is totally off in la-la land, disconnected with who he really is. Life then humiliates him, of at least shows him he is inadequate to be this Bronze image, and when he gets this bonk it hopefully is no more than what's needed to bring him down to earth and back to his 4.5 true self.

 

[bruce_g]

4.3 as inflated ego or overconfidence, and 4.4 as the Peter Principle. That’s an interesting example.

 

[hilary]

Trapped in not knowing, hemmed in and oppressed by ignorance. Obvious potential for embarrassment. Maybe the little chap tells everyone he drives to the shops every day. So he gets in behind the steering wheel with all his friends piled into the back seat - and nothing happens, and the reality painfully catches up with him...

(Line 4 - just moved from theory to practice, or at least we would have done if we only had a clue how to go about it. But we're not ready to cross that river yet. The paired line, btw, is 3.3 - and you can see exactly how that could lead you here.)