Memorizing the I Ching Hexagram 5

[mudpie]

'waiting in the mud'

 

[toganm]

I've long associated Dao with woman or earth. Glad to see someone agrees. 2.7 is the ultimate Yin - Dao.

Ultimate yin is not Dao

"Dao that can be named is not the enduring Dao"
Dao De Jing Chapter 1

Togan

 

[bruce_g]

Ultimate yin is not Dao

"Dao that can be named is not the enduring Dao"
Dao De Jing Chapter 1

Togan

When you define something as not, you define it nonetheless.

"The nameless is the boundary of Heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of creation."
Also Dao De Jing Chapter 1

 

[bruce_g]

Togan,

Isn’t 2.7 named?
Does it give rise to creation?
Is it not then the ultimate Yin?
Where would creation live if there was no place?
Is not the place the womb of Dao?

 

[rosada]

HAHAHAHA, Bruce!

Listener, if you google the astrological aspect you are interested in - for example, "saturn conjunct pluto" - you will get lots of info. StarIQ.com has a free service that emails you when planets are transitting your chart.

Any thoughts on 5.3 leading to 60?
60. Limitation, is this why we're discussing the boundries of Heaven and Earth?

 

[rosada]

Hex 5.4

Hex. 5.4

Waiting in blood.
Get out of the pit.

 

[toganm]

Isn’t 2.7 named?

No

Does it give rise to creation?

Yes and so does 1.7 gives rise to receptive

Is it not then the ultimate Yin?

Not to my understanding as there is no ultimate yin nor ultimate yang. They both carry the seed of each other and they are mutually dependent of each other. If there was an ultimate of one of them then there would not be the ten thousand myriad things

Where would creation live if there was no place?
Is not the place the womb of Dao?

Continuing where you left in Chapter 1:

"So, as ever hidden, we should look at its inner essence:
As always manifest, we should look at its outer aspects.

These two flow from the same source, though differently named;
And both are called mysteries.

The Mystery of mysteries is the Door of all essence."


Chapter 2 says:
"Indeed, the hidden and the manifest give birth to each other."

So to my understanding Hex 1 and 2 together are parts of the Taji which is born from Wuji. Hex 1 and Hex 2 are the mysteries yet the mystery of the mystery is the place/thing the Daoist have been looking for. But in my view non are Dao.

Therefore one needs yin to activate yang but on the other hand yang is needed to have yin also.

Chapter 11:
"Thus, while the tangible has advantages,
It is the intangible that makes it useful."

Chapter 40
"The movement of the Tao consists in Returning.
The use of the Tao consists in softness."

That is maybe why Hex 1 and 2 when all change become each other same as 63 and 64 when all changes become eachother.

Best wishes
Togan

 

[bruce_g]

Quote:
Isn’t 2.7 named?
"No"

No? It’s named 2.7 or hex 2 with all lines changing, or old yin.

Quote:
Does it give rise to creation?
"Yes and so does 1.7 gives rise to receptive"

Correct.

Quote:
Is it not then the ultimate Yin?
"Not to my understanding as there is no ultimate yin nor ultimate yang. They both carry the seed of each other and they are mutually dependent of each other. If there was an ultimate of one of them then there would not be the ten thousand myriad things"

Yes, of course they are mutually dependent upon each other. You don’t see hex. 2 as primal yin, and 2.7 as yin in full bloom or power? How would you then describe 2.7?

Ten thousand things manifest from the intercourse of yang and yin, but it is yin which gives birth to them.

Quote:
Where would creation live if there was no place?
Is not the place the womb of Dao?

No answer for this one?

"That is maybe why Hex 1 and 2 when all change become each other same as 63 and 64 when all changes become eachother."

Again, Togan, I acknowledge that hex 1 and 2 together creates the manifest world and everything in it, but only woman gives birth to it. The creative needs a place to become. That’s why my journal notes say for hex 2:

Before the beginning was space for creation. Devoted and strong, open yet firm: Heaven’s wife receives the seed and bears upon herself all things manifest.

 

[getojack]

OK, I've been thinking about this and here's another idea. Let me know what you think of it.

Yin and Yang are two sides of the same coin.
Taiji is the coin.
Wuji is the source of the coin.
Dao is the action of throwing the coin.

 

[bruce_g]

Togan,

Perhaps the problem in reading my statement “I've long associated Dao with woman or earth.” is in leaving out the word “associated”. I think it’s being read as “Dao is woman or earth”. And perhaps I should have worded the following statement: “2.7 is the ultimate Yin – Dao” as: 2.7 is as the ultimate expression of Yin – Dao.

Apologies for my oversight.

 

[jesed]

A little honest mud never hurt anyone. I personally prefer it over disgustingly clean.

Agree with this... the problem come when one identify mud is always a sign of honesty and clean is always a sign of disguise

Best wishes

 

[bruce_g]

Hex. 5.4

Waiting in blood.
Get out of the pit.

I think the relating hex 43 offers insight into 5.4.

43 makes a stand, or as LiSe calls it: the speaking staff - announcing ones truth. 5.4 is in a pit rather than in a risen staff. There, no one can know of him, there is no vision or plan to rise up and out of the pit. The Fan Yao, 43:4, shows a result of waiting in such a pit: moving poorly as without skin, losing blood. Being led as a sheep requires faith in the Shepard. To wait without vision or belief is hopeless waiting. Get out of that pit!

 

[jesed]

Dao is not yin not yang...

Dao in not inside not outside

 

[bruce_g]

Agree with this... the problem come when one identify mud is always a sign of honesty and clean is always a sign of disguise

Best wishes

That's a very good point, Jesed. Well said and well received.

 

[bruce_g]

Dao is not yin not yang...

Dao in not inside not outside

Poetic. But - saying what Dao is not is the same as saying what Dao is. The Dao which can be named, et al.

 

[jesed]

But - saying what Dao is not is the same as saying what Dao is.

Not necesarly...

The first statement of Tao te King is something like: "we cann't define what dao is... we can only describe it's effects (yin/yang...5 states of changes.... 10,000 things)"

Identify the effect with Dao is misleaded.

Jesus said something similar about the Spirit.. is like the wind..we cann't see it, only can see it's effects.

Best wishes

 

[bruce_g]

Jesed, would you say that a well adjusted person or a well balanced idea is equally acquainted with mud and cleanness, and is honest about both?

 

[bruce_g]

Not necesarly...

The first statement of Tao te King is something like: "we cann't define what dao is... we can only describe it's effects (yin/yang...5 states of changes.... 10,000 things)"

Identify the effect with Dao is misleaded.

Jesus said something similar about the Spirit.. is like the wind..we cann't see it, only can see it's effects.

Best wishes

Yes, those are very poetic ideas. But I don't think it's misleading to identify effect with Dao, anymore than it's misleading to associate Jesus with the Spirit.

 

[jesed]

Just to avoid misundertandings...I'm not associating Jesus with Spirit...I'm just saying that Jesus talked about the Spirit.

And "don't define Tao" is not only about a poetic idea.... is an epistemologic idea... to recognice that human knowledge (mind) has limits. This is an epistemologic key to undertand the rest of the TTK (example.. distrust intelectual/no-natural understandings of nature and social issues)

About your question, i don't understand well the word "acquainted". What I can say is... honesty is a high value...so there is no "middle point" about honesty/deshonesty (The Middle Way is not always in the middle point)

About Mud/Clean... as principle, is better clean than mud... but this is just a "principle". In real life: a) There is no wrong or cause to fear/despicte mud.... and clean is not necesarly the best thing. So... one must adapt oneself to the circumstances to define if mud or clean is better fit. When there is 50/50, I would prefer clean

 

[bruce_g]

Just to avoid misundertandings...I'm not associating Jesus with Spirit...I'm just saying that Jesus talked about the Spirit.

No, I made that association. It is the same one I would make with observing nature and associating it with (not defining it as) the Dao.

And "don't define Tao" is not only about a poetic idea.... is an epistemologic idea... to recognice that human knowledge (mind) has limits. This is an epistemologic key to undertand the rest of the TTK (example.. distrust intelectual/no-natural understandings of nature and social issues).

Yes, but you know, even if the DDJ was never written, the Dao wouldn't have changed one jot or tittle. We're fortunate to have such treasures as the DDJ, but we are meant to learn and understand these things through our own mind and observations, through our living, not just through our reading and memorizing. Be careful of those sacred cows.

About your question, i don't understand well the word "acquainted". What I can say is... honesty is a high value...so there is no "middle point" about honesty/deshonesty (The Middle Way is not always in the middle point)

I like this a lot and agree.

About Mud/Clean... as principle, is better clean than mud... but this is just a "principle". In real life: a) There is no wrong or cause to fear/despicte mud.... and clean is not necesarly the best thing. So... one must adapt oneself to the circumstances to define if mud or clean is better fit. When there is 50/50, I would prefer clean

This too.

Thanks for the 58.

 

[Trojina]

Mud/clean Clean/mud am lost hmm You guys are deep !


Mud is mentioned in 51,4 also isn't it, not sure where else.(38,6)

Resuming line 3 a 'stick in the mud' is someone who won't try anything new, who can't see new solutions who clings to the past, is bogged down. Waiting with the mind bogged down by past events ?

Line 4 about the pit and waiting in blood, I think this describes alot of pain in the waiting situation though I think the meaning can vary between change your attitude to your circumstance or actually get out of the situation. I'm never quite sure which since I've received it in circumstances where I've had no option but to endure some painful waiting, could not leave immediately, so could only try to lessen the injurous aspect of it by adjusting attitude.

 

[rosada]

I'm really making a point of looking at the days events as manefestations of the lines as we study them here. Today was all about waiting. Waiting to meet with people, waiting for the event to begin and meanwhile nothing to do but snack. When we left there was a warning notice on our truck, if this had been a real 5.4 day it probably would have been a ticket. Got out of the pit just in time.

 

[toganm]

Perhaps the problem in reading my statement “I've long associated Dao with woman or earth.” is in leaving out the word “associated”. I think it’s being read as “Dao is woman or earth”. And perhaps I should have worded the following statement: “2.7 is the ultimate Yin – Dao” as: 2.7 is as the ultimate expression of Yin – Dao.

"A white horse is not a horse"

Best wishes
Togan

 

[bruce_g]

"A white horse is not a horse"

Ah.. had to look that up.

"The White Horse Dialogue is a philosophical dialogue which forms part of the Gongsun Longzi written by Logician Gongsun Long.

It plays on the semantics between the objects themselves and the ideas they represent. The first line of the dialogue asks "Can it be that "A white horse is not a horse"?" and conclusion of this fictional dialogue is that "A white horse is not a horse".

This short dialogue is difficult to translate as the construction used in Classical Chinese - "A $38750; B" is ambiguous and can be translated either as "A is not a member of the class B" or as "A is not identical to B".

Worse, the opening is ambiguous; it begins "Can it be", so it might not be attempting to prove that a "white horse" is not actually "a horse" at all, but rather whether such a statement is even possible."

I guess that's somehow profound?

 

[bruce_g]

Togan,

You must forgive me as I am a direct speaking man. When someone can only quote something from archaic record, I begin to question the depth and legitimacy of anything they have to say.

 

[rosada]

hex 5.5

5.5
Waiting at meat and drink.
Perseverance brings good fortune.

 

[toganm]

Togan,

You must forgive me as I am a direct speaking man. When someone can only quote something from archaic record, I begin to question the depth and legitimacy of anything they have to say.

That is perfect. I prefer the one who does not talk behind and has the openness of th heart to talk up front.

Now regarding the White horse I gave the quote as to show my idea that one cannot limit Dao to one thing especially making Yin - Dao or an abstract thing as "ultimate yin". This in my thought is naming things and white horse is a perfect example for school names. The white horse example is indeed profound and so is Dao . Similar examples could also be found in ZhuangZhi ie. Ch17 "You are not fish! And you are not me" .

Dao De Jing talks about Dao yet it is through Yi Jing a possiblity to understand the play of Yin Yang and how change happens and effects events arises.

Best wishes
Togan

 

[bruce_g]

That is perfect. I prefer the one who does not talk behind and has the openness of th heart to talk up front.

Now regarding the White horse I gave the quote as to show my idea that one cannot limit Dao to one thing especially making Yin - Dao or an abstract thing as "ultimate yin". This in my thought is naming things and white horse is a perfect example for school names. The white horse example is indeed profound and so is Dao . Similar examples could also be found in ZhuangZhi ie. Ch17 "You are not fish! And you are not me" .

Dao De Jing talks about Dao yet it is through Yi Jing a possiblity to understand the play of Yin Yang and how change happens and effects events arises.

Best wishes
Togan

Togan,

Likewise I respect this approach you’ve taken, and I understand better your verbiage,

I do not, can not, disagree with anything you’ve said here. Nameless is foremost a feature of Dao, if it could be said to have a feature at all. However, we do try to penetrate the mystery, and Yijing provides a rich array of images for the purpose of learning through association, even though nothing can name it directly. I realize how offensive it may seem to someone who tributes the Dao with namelessness, when someone attributes a nature or character to it. I respect that, and share that understanding with you. And so I corrected myself, offered apology, and tried to present my 2.7/Dao/ulimate yin idea more clearly. I can’t defend it too much, because it violates the truth I attempt to defend.

So many roads lead off the path, and words are unsteady guides.
We sometimes follow them to our own demise.
Easier to read the signs, remaining wordless.
But words are mostly what we’ve got,
And if used wisely, that’s quite a lot.

Nothing can name it, but we can jump up and down pointing to it.

 

[rosada]

How's time flowing for people? Notice how there's been barely a blip in the yin/yang conversation as we move through the lines here? Seems like 5.4, 5.5 and perhaps 5.6 sort of blend into each other, like Waiting and the discussions that spring up while we're waiting giving us a glimpse of eternity.

 

[hilary]

Hm - how time flows depends on how fast I get what I'm waiting for! (From certain tech support departments for products I purchased, for instance.)

But when I assume it'll all get sorted out eventually, and fill the waiting time with enjoyable and social activities... aaahhh...

(And now I look at it again, I think I can sort out the techie problem myself.)

Think of the confidence required, when you're waiting for the weather to change so you can get out to the fields, to sit round and eat and drink your stores. No wonder this line opens Waiting up to the flow of hexagram 11.