Memorizing the I Ching Hexagram 7. the Army

[bruce_g]

I love that 7.6 leads to hex 4

After the fighting you can go on leave - become a kid again

Indeed. But it's an error to connect 7 too tightly with "fighting" per se. Preparedness and strength would be a closer description. During my 4 years of active duty, there was constant training, preparation, discipline and drills, but fortunately I've never had to engage in actual combat. And when the ship pulled into port, you can believe there was plenty of 4.

 

[bruce_g]

And hopefuly realize this time that what one has done all this time is not the answer for the fighting that had been just done. But I guess some will never get it (as they are ignorant) and continue fighting

just my 2 ¢

Togan

You really don't understand much about nature: plant, animal or human, Togan. Yes, too much human war is out of ignorance, but try telling birds not to invade each other's nests in spring, or a plant not to invade the ground of other plants, struggling to survive. Look around you; all of creation is fighting to live. But if it pleases you to sit around a fire, singing Kumbaya and reading the dao de jing, by all means enjoy yourself. You might also read the Bhagavad Gita while you’re at it.

 

[heylise]

I like Ewalds interpretation a lot, it is a very creative one. But I am still not sure about it. Would they say "hold on to" words/speaking if they meant "don't speak" or "speak softly"? It might be, restraining talking. Not silent, but only the most necessary words and softly.
執 seems to be a picture of a handcuffed person.
Meanings according to Wenlin: hold in hand; persist in; stick to carry out; implement, direct; manage, catch; capture; written acknowledgement; voucher; friend; companion; (Budd.) attachment to things/people
Nowadays 執言 means 'make positive assertions'.

When I cannot find a meaning of a line, I often look at the opposite. Here that is 13.5, "Union of people: first wailing and weeping and yet afterwards laughing. Great legions are capable of mutual encounters.
For relations it is necessary to know where you're at. Make your intentions and feelings known, as soon and as clear as possible. The enemy is always the one you don't know. Talking can turn enemies into friends."

That makes a lot of sense for Ewald's interpretation of the not-speaking of 7.5!

LiSe

 

[bruce_g]

As to fighting/war and the Yijing, 7 is of course an essential Gua, but so is every other hexagram, including 11.

The idea of war reaches beyond simply one country fighting with another. It is the body fighting the mind, the mind fighting the soul, the soul fighting to win the Spirit; and ultimately killing it, or at least any conception of it.

 

[rosada]

For a hexagram that is supposed to be all about order and control, It's sure giving me the run around!
I'm not seeing The Army as being so much about war, as it having to do with getting organized. Fall is coming on slowly but surely up here in Washington and there's a sence of wanting to get things Ready. "The leader in the midst" seems to be that instinct not to rush or panic, but also to keep focused, keep moving, get your fire wood, get the summer clothes out of the way. The corpses in the wagons could be the results of rushing ahead too quickly without knowing exactly what we're trying to accomplish and The retreat could refer to stepping back to undo any damage caused by the too swift advance, or just the awareness that getting ready for the future involves healing the past, bringing things up to date. So just because there is a StrongMan in this army, we're still having to learn by experience how to follow his lead.
This game in the field could be encouragement to be optimistic. In view of the comments about secrets, I'm seeing this as also refering to how when one does move into new relationships, it may be necessary not to refer to past relationships. If we are friends now, why keep bringing up old arguments? And then finally the glorious 7.6 which I don't think we've given enough appreciation to, but maybe the I Ching knows that's how it is at this point, because not just line 7.6 refers to founding states and vesting fiefs, the next hexagram, 8. Holding Together, is all about states and fiefs and friendly relations.
But anyway, getting back to hex 7, this image of The Army works better for me when I see it as being about getting conflicting impulses (and by impulses I mean all our scattered info bytes that make up who we see our selves as.), all in some sort of alignment, walking your talk, with the idea that now that we are clear about this, we will recognize how our outer world is a absolute perfect match for this inner organization. So 7.6 is this new world we enter, the perfect reward for following our highest instincts. And of course the admonition that "Inferior people should not be employed." I see "inferior people" as those little voices that say, "It looks good now, but it will never last."

 

[nicky_p]

It is the body fighting the mind, the mind fighting the soul, the soul fighting to win the Spirit; and ultimately killing it, or at least any conception of it.

This has me wondering... isn't my soul and my spirit the same then? I mean I always regarded it as such and so if I let someone or I myself kill my Spirit (fighting or otherwise) then doesn't some part of my soul die a little?

 

[bruce_g]

This has me wondering... isn't my soul and my spirit the same then? I mean I always regarded it as such and so if I let someone or I myself kill my Spirit (fighting or otherwise) then doesn't some part of my soul die a little?

These are words which attempt to describe concepts. It isn't your fighting spirit which is killed (hopefully!), it is any notion you have of God, or whatever trait you assign to it: virtue, wisdom, knowledge, etc. You can not experience pure God-consciousness and still view it as an object. All that stuff eventually must go (59). But to everything a time (60).

 

[nicky_p]

the soul fighting to win the Spirit; and ultimately killing it, or at least any conception of it.

You can not experience pure God-consciousness and still view it as an object.

Yeah, I think I see the connection. Hard to describe in words though. This is where I end up delving into the realms of emoticons - but even they have their limitations - lol

 

[getojack]

Yeah, I think I see the connection. Hard to describe in words though. This is where I end up delving into the realms of emoticons - but even they have their limitations - lol

body mind soul Spirit =

 

[nicky_p]

lol - thanks getojack.

 

[lightofreason]

I'm not seeing The Army as being so much about war, as it having to do with getting organized.

Thats right - I use the label "uniforming". 07 pairs with 04 to focus on socialisation etc be it imposed unconditionally and from the outside (07) or conditionally where some aspects of personal quality control is present (04).

The reference to the Army is a reference to all looking the 'same' from the outside - all of those uniforms. Rules are derived from the Army, not the individual, and so 'standing orders' regulate all.

The base trigram of water covers the concept of containment. Water in the upper position covers the concept of control (and so only hex 29 covers the full spectrum).

The infrastructure of 07 is described by analogy to 41 with its generic focus on distillation/concentration (41 covers all aspects of 'decrease', be it total failure or purest of distillation). This infrastructure link gives us a 'vague' pointer to what 07 is about.

07 gets its nourishment from 39 - standing up to the 'mindless' flow (obstruction) as well as using the flow to bypass obstructions (to out-flank)

From the outside 07 presents a look described by 26 - holding firm. (traditional perspectives guide interactions with reality - a theme common in the army etc)

On the inside 07 presents a look described by analogy to 45 - a formation of a positive congregation/assembly and focus on some overseer ('god' or 'general' etc)

Chris.

 

[mudpie]

You really don't understand much about nature: plant, animal or human, Togan. Yes, too much human war is out of ignorance, but try telling birds not to invade each other's nests in spring, or a plant not to invade the ground of other plants, struggling to survive. Look around you; all of creation is fighting to live. But if it pleases you to sit around a fire, singing Kumbaya and reading the dao de jing, by all means enjoy yourself. You might also read the Bhagavad Gita while you’re at it.

why does Togan's remark imply he is singing kumbaya?
all of creation fighting to live?
living and dying are both natural. animals kill each other in order to live
human beings fight each other for power and i believe this behavior is peculiar to the human being. such sense less behavior does imply ignorance

 

[bruce_g]

why does Togan's remark imply he is singing kumbaya?
all of creation fighting to live?
living and dying are both natural. animals kill each other in order to live
human beings fight each other for power and i believe this behavior is peculiar to the human being. such sense less behavior does imply ignorance

For the same reason you confront me: your opinion being expressed directly.

And, because it is shallow and naive to view life and nature as being passive. The actions of man are no more or less competitive than the rest of nature. We just just have much bigger weapons. We fight over fuel rather than food, but it's no different, as the fuel provides a means for food, for survival. Right? Wrong? Sure. But that's how life is in reality.

I don’t expect you to agree, and that’s perfectly fine by me. You can always tell me to sit in the war tee-pee and paint my face. I wouldn’t in the least be offended.

There’s an image I’ve tried to upload, unsuccessfully; one I captured two Springs ago. It’s small enough, uploads, but then the post shows only the square it’s supposed to view in. It’s worth more words than I could type. I’ll try, and see if perhaps Ewald can trouble shoot it. Basically, an image of a casualty of territorial war. The species killing off members of the same species before they have a chance to nest. If they do succeed in nesting, they will find their tiny chicks laying on the ground, left to die in the sun, when they return from gathering food for them. That’s life, war and death to me.

View attachment 76

Btw, Learner, have you read the The Bhagavad-Gita? Just curious.

 

[toganm]

You really don't understand much about nature: plant, animal or human, Togan.

How do you know ? You are not me

But if it pleases you to sit around a fire, singing Kumbaya and reading the dao de jing, by all means enjoy yourself. You might also read the Bhagavad Gita while you’re at it.

Non action is not equal to non intervention is my understanding yet your mileage may vary. Following Dao does not mean to be passive on the contrary it means being in resonance in the right time, in the right place with the surroundings.

best wishes
Togan

 

[mudpie]

what is "...for the sme reason you confront me?" You mean fighting? I dont think I am fighting with you. I remember someone on this board once accused me of sitting singing kumbaya, and it was so ludricous. i just didint thnk that what togan said warranted that in any way.
besides, you really really think you can liken the war "for oil" to the animals? money is more like it, and there is a kind of corrupt underpinning, not a "nature's way"

 

[bruce_g]

what is "...for the sme reason you confront me?" You mean fighting? I dont think I am fighting with you. I remember someone on this board once accused me of sitting singing kumbaya, and it was so ludricous. i just didint thnk that what togan said warranted that in any way.
besides, you really really think you can liken the war "for oil" to the animals? money is more like it, and there is a kind of corrupt underpinning, not a "nature's way"

No, not fighting, expressing ideas directly.

I'm not trying to defend this war or any war. I'm merely saying that human's are equally competitive to the rest of nature. There is the notion, held by some, that nature is gentle, kind and understanding. I am saying that isn't reality. Nature is competitive and fierce. What you’re calling power I’m calling survival. Oil, water, land, food: nature competes for it, and the only difference between humans and the rest is the size of our brains and weapons.

Also, neither of you have addressed my question about the Gita. Not that the Gita is the end all philosophy, but then neither is the DDJ (though Togan repeatedly quotes from it as though it were), or any other book. Nevertheless, the Gita places war into perspective for the human being, which transcends human squeamish denial. I suggest that if you forego the concept of doing war, then you must first forgo the concept of your own individual self. This is a point that I’m obviously failing to get across.

 

[frank_r]

This weekend I had 7 with a changing line at 4.
My question was what I could expect at the conference where I had to speak.
The conference was about the integration of eastern and western medicine. My lecture was to use I Ching in a acupuncture treatment. The east-west part was that I made the connection with the DNA.

I also did a workshop that they used the I Ching themselves, they where sitting in small groups and where dicscussing about the I Ching and Chinese medicine treatment. With some people I felt resistance to use the I Ching, I think it was to true for some and I felt there tension.(40) But most of them saw what you can do with it and where enthusiast.

After the workshop I was very tired and to organice myself again.

So I had twice 7 this week, the first time unchanging the last the 4th line.
Both question where about this congres. And my experience this week with 7 was what it was to be the organising force. The be part of the group but also to give direction. For me 7 is also about the war and the casualties, but also how to deal with those and the higher purpose why people get into fighting and conflict.

 

[Trojina]

Yes fighting sometimes has to happen when there is no other way. Sometimes people fight for freedom, for good. To say people who fight are always ignorant is utterly ludicrous and insulting to those who have been injured or lost their lives in order to protect the liberty of others.

I am grateful to the men of my fathers generation who fought for the freedom i enjoy today, I really am, because I know the hell they went through. Yes some wars are ludicrous, some wars should never happen, but that does not mean somethings are not worth fighting for.

I'm tired of this nonsensical "we must not show a value of any kind because we must pretend to be like the dao" kind of attitude. I think its likley misguided in that if the book is saying 'dao is like this' it is trying to describe the undescribable - they say what its not because one cannot say what it is. A 20th century reader comes along and says 'ooh dao doesn't care about this then neither do I' . Because the dao is described as not having concern for this and that etc it is not meant as an instruction for the human animal to pretend to be this way ! Crazy ! . We get a human being pretending nothing matters at all, nothings worth fighting for and worse denigrating those who show courage to fight when it is necessary, or those who have to fight when they have no other choice.

You know when watching their families butchered before their very eyes (and I have known people who have seen this) may choose to fight in their defence rather than sitting back to congratulate themselves on their absolute lack of values.

 

[rosada]

I find it useful when trying to get a handle on a hexagram, to look at the ones before and the one coming up immediately after...

Hexagram's 3 - 6 seem to be all about being new to a situation and what one needs to go through to get set up.

3. Difficulty at the Beginning - The Mind is faster than the manefestation - we can think about the future before it is here - so we have the illusion that nothing is coming together as fast as it should and "bloody tears" flow.

4. Youthful Folly - Neither asking for advice nor trying to take charge seem to help speed things up, either. All one can do is....

5. Wait - and eat, and wait and eat some more until we get it that eating and waiting to eat are what we need to master first.

6. Conflict - As we recognize this pattern we strive to become in sync with it. At first we see the problems. Mainly, that it is hard for a person to provide for himself all by himself, that competing is exhausting and never ending. Life would be so much easier if we could work together as a team...

7. The Army - The team organizes around the core principles:
7.1 Eat regularly
7.2 Nobody else can eat for you
7.3 Don't eat dead things
7.4 Rest and relax after a meal
7.5 Find your own food
7.6 Ultimately you will recognize and be able to organize your world to provide you with nourishment on a continuing basis.

This last idea, that 7.6 is about finding/creating a world that will sustain us is what I think is the point of hex. 7. That is, while there's a lot of talk about armies and corpses, this isn't a hexagram about fighting. It's about how to survive. The image tells us that the superior man increases his masses not by slaughtering an enemy, but by his generosity toward the people. So ultimately the lesson here is on how to work together, how to create a team and establish a fief.

8. Finding Fellow Fiefers.

 

[mudpie]

To say people who fight are always ignorant is utterly ludicrous

i didnt say that and neither did anyone else far as i can see


"I'm tired of this nonsensical "we must not show a value of any kind because we must pretend to be like the dao" kind of attitude. I think its likley misguided in that if the book is saying 'dao is like this' it is trying to describe the undescribable - they say what its not because one cannot say what it is. A 20th century reader comes along and says 'ooh dao doesn't care about this then neither do I' . Because the dao is described as not having concern for this and that etc it is not meant as an instruction for the human animal to pretend to be this way ! Crazy ! We get a human being pretending nothing matters at all, nothings worth fighting for and worse denigrating those who show courage to fight when it is necessary, or those who have to fight when they have no other choice."

speak for yourself, trojan, dont go around throwing eggs when you dont know who or what you are talking about

 

[Trojina]

I am speaking for myself, I'm giving my view. I don't think I claimed to speak for anyone else there ? If someone asserts my father or his father before him was 'ignorant' to fight for the freedom of his country then as far as I can see I have a right to counter that.
Togan said to keep fighting showed ignorance in an earlier post. Some kinds of fighting maybe, my point is that some fighting has been shown to be pretty necessary when in defence of liberty of a nation, then it cannot be called 'ignorant'.

You think I don't know what I'm talking about, I think I do. I think you don't know what you're talking about, you think you do. My post is well reasoned, you call it throwing eggs ? Well thanks for that, I can see theres no point in even trying to communicate.

BYE

 

[frank_r]

This last idea, that 7.6 is about finding/creating a world that will sustain us is what I think is the point of hex. 7. That is, while there's a lot of talk about armies and corpses, this isn't a hexagram about fighting. It's about how to survive. The image tells us that the superior man increases his masses not by outwitting an enemy, but by his generosity toward the people.

A agree partially with you on this Rosada, it's a hexagram about surviving yes but also about the victims this fighting can have. So this hexagram is also on fighting and to deal with a conflict in a organised way. without this conflict and fighting for this higher purpose there will also be no possibilty to find people you want to "hold together" with.

 

[heylise]

The character shi is written on oracle bones as DUI1: testes or buttocks, meaning 'military'.
Military camp, big hall. Model, example, master, teacher, tutor, to imitate; a specialist (med., music, paint or divining), local administration chief, high functionary, superior in rank.

Frank got it when he had to be a medical specialist and a medical/divination teacher.

I think it has most of all to do with organizing, and in regard to fighting also especially about organizing one's forces.

LiSe

 

[bruce_g]

I don’t mind at all if someone chooses the pacifist path for themselves. But if someone makes the sound of an ascetic, they must legitimize it by their withdrawal from the world they criticize. There are those who stand back from the awful things of the world, and from a high hill point their finger at the intolerable fools below, who fight like animals. Are you an animal or a god? Nothing wrong with either so long as you’re true to your path.

 

[rosada]

8. "..Those who are uncertain gradually join in..whoever comes too late meets with misfortune."

I'm totally uncertain what we're talking about over here so I'm going to go focus on hex. 8.

 

[heylise]

Not that complicated.. Organizing thoughts and bringing them in accord with actions. This thread is about hex. 7 after all.

LiSe

 

[rosada]

Thank you!:bows:

 

[Sparhawk]

 

[laylab]

7.6 Ultimately you will recognize and be able to organize your world to provide you with nourishment on a continuing basis.

This last idea, that 7.6 is about finding/creating a world that will sustain us is what I think is the point of hex. 7. That is, while there's a lot of talk about armies and corpses, this isn't a hexagram about fighting. It's about how to survive. The image tells us that the superior man increases his masses not by slaughtering an enemy, but by his generosity toward the people. So ultimately the lesson here is on how to work together, how to create a team and establish a fief.

Rosada, I am a bit confused by the fact that 7.6 leads to 4. I have always understood 4 in a negative destructive way..like the foolishness of youth. Perhaps that is wrong. Because 7.6 seems to positive and MATURE I am confused as to why the relating hexagram is Youthful Folly.....??

 

[hilary]

Hexagram 4 is just about Not Knowing. That gives rise to anxiety and haste to know - give me the answers now, I don't have time to learn them! At the final line of the Army, the military leader finds himself in a situation he knows nothing about at all. Waging war is one thing, founding a state is utterly different.

No small people need apply - maybe because they'd be inclined to carry on using the methods they already know? Or because they'd be so anxious for certainty that they'd enforce order, rather than allowing a society to grow on the basis of trust? (Thinking, here, of 4.6 and 8.1, too.)