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Memorizing the I Ching

toganm

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The translation I learned is :

"Perhaps jumping into the abyss. No misfortune"

The dragon starting with line 3 is active it is no more on the field.

Togan
 
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jesed

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bruce_g said:
That’s the thing about memorizing someone’s translation/interpretation of I Ching: it is someone else’s. The truth of it needs to become ones own truth, and I believe that only comes from personal practice, impartation and revelation. Logic, memory or text are only the highway entrance signs.

Totally agree with that....

I had always love this commet from Wang Pi (sorry if you think is too long)

"
The images give the sense, the words clarify the images.

To exhaust the sense there is nothing better than the images. To exhaust the images there is nothing better than the words.

The words should center on the images, and then they find the correct words to contemplate the images. The images should center on the sense and then they find the correct images to contemplate the sense.

The sense is exhausted by means of the images.The images are exhausted by means of the words.

Thus, that one who speaks to clarify the images obtains the images and forgets the words; that one that realizes images that contain the sense obtains the sense and forgets the images.

It is the same thing that to follow a track to hunt a hare. As soon as the hare is had, one forgets the track. Or it is the same thing that to place a trap of wickers to capture fish. As soon as the fish are had, one forgets the trap.

The words are the tracks of the images, and the images are the traps of the sense.

Therefore, that one that only retains the images does not catch the sense.

The images arise from the sense, but if only the images are retained, which is retained are not the correct images. The words arise from the images, but if the words are retained only, which is retained are not the correct words.

Because of it, only forgetting the images it is possible to catch the sense, and only forgetting the words the images can be caught.

To catch the sense consists of forgetting the images, and to catch the images consists of forgetting the words.

Therefore, if there are established images that exhaust completely the sense, they can forget the images. And if the trigramas superput one above other to exhaust the situation, it is possible to forget the depletion.

If hereby the different kinds of things are reached, one can forget their images. If one is in harmony with the rules, it is possible to testify them.

If the rule proposes that one should act strongly, what need is of the horse?.

If the rule proposes that one should be obedient, what need is of the cow?.

If the individual lines correspond to the obedience, why is it necessary say that K'un is the cow?.

If the rule demands a strong action, what need is to say that Ch'ien is the horse?.

If due to the fact of which the horse is associated by Ch'ien, one follows only the text of the words when study the hexagramas, what one had is a horse, but not Ch'ien.

Hereby an infinity of artificial doctrines have spread, and it is difficult to include them with the look.

Because of it, if the reciprocal incarnation (of the sense and of the image) turns out to be inadequate and one applies it to the changes in the hexagramas, these become furthermore inadequate.

And if besides five states of mutation are bare in mind, the base of sustentation gets lost immediately.

Even if one has sufficient skill to predict all kinds of things by means of such subtleties, one doesn't has anything of which be able to deduce the rules.

This is the consequence of retaining the images while they emerge the rules
"

Of course, here "rules" is not in the sense of moral rules, but in the sense pf "consecuece" rules (branches-stems, action-consecuence, root-manifestation...)

Best wishes
 

Trojina

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Rosada I think Bruce meant he saw 1.3 as !.3 ie he meant the exclamation mark was significant where for you I assume it was a typo. Am I right Bruce or have I lost my mind ?
 

martin

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Jesed said:
To catch the sense consists of forgetting the images, and to catch the images consists of forgetting the words.

Like that. In the wine the grapes are forgotten. Only their essence remains.
 
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bruce_g

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Trojan, nope, you got it right. Didn't mean to make such a fuss of it but it sorta knocked me off my chair when I read it. It just seems so self evident.
 

toganm

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jesed said:
I had always love this commet from Wang Pi (sorry if you think is too long)

Especially if one wants to understand the lines, Richard John Lynn's translation of Wang Bi's interpretation is a good one to have.

Togan
 

rosada

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Jesed.

Your post helps me understand the famous "Tao that can be named is not the real tao" edict. Thank you for this wonerful sharing, especially here at 1.4 where we are realizing that ultimatly all outer images and words will fade, and all we will have to navigate by is our inner sence.
..
I am reminded of the story of the two priests sitting on the edge ot the river. "How perfect, " says one.
"Yes," sighs the other, "But what a pity to say so."
..

Trojan and Bruce
!.3 typo - oh, oh! ha, ha!
Thanks for the clarification.
..
Love these posts.
Seems like we're at 1.5 already!
 
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toganm

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rosada said:
Your post helps me understand the famous "Tao that can be named is not the real tao" edict.

Ironically Lao Zhi then wrote the remaining 80 chapters talking about Dao and De :)

Togan
 

rosada

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1.5 Flying dragon in the heavens

1.5 Flying dragon in the heavens.
It furthers one to see the great man.

Hexagram 1 is actually one of the easier hexagrams to memorize because there is such an obvious story line developing here. First the dragon is hidden, then he appears in the field, a bit of busyness and he's launched, wavering over the depths, and now he's flying. Makes me thinks of a kite finally up.

I.5 particularly should slip easily into the memory bank, because we've already been introduced to the phrase, "It furthers one to see the great man" in hex 1.2.

Wilhelm says some very interesting things about 1.5 on page 382 of his translation.

I expect we will be finding ourselves particularly effective in our various "fields" today. All this focus and discussion on the yang hexagram should have raised our level of awareness of yang energy now to the point where we're all leaping over tall buildings with a single bound. I would also be expecting we may actually find "great men" coming into our lives today - not just seeing famous people on television but actually having people important to us manefesting in our personal fields.
 
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rosada

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1.6 Arrogant dragon will have cause to repent.

Arrogant: overly impressed with one's self importance.

Last yang line of the hexagram. The sun is setting. If little dragon keeps clamoring for one more dance he's gonna have some very sore feet in the morning.
 

mudpie

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I like that for 1.6 ....about the clamoring for one more dance. Only maybe it is not so much being impressed with one's importance but just going over the top. NOt knowing when to stop, or not being receptive to anything else but your own driving force.

Did you ever listen to the tape called The Red Shoes by Clarissa Pinkola estes? A girl who cannot stop dancing in the cherished red shoes she has fashioned. The red shoes represent her passion and creativity.........taken to a frenzied level....to where, at the end, her feet must be cut off in order to put an end to the frenzy.

Estes likens it to the story of Janis Joplin in a mythological sense. The juicy passion which Joplin had in her creativity and in her life got misdirected and out of control. She went into a spiral (sex, drugs rock n roll) and inevitably, it brought her down.

Mythologically, in the story at least, if not in Joplin's life, the loss of the feet leads one to the point where stillness finally comes, and new feet can slowly be grown. What good is uninhibited passion and immense creativity if one can not balance it out with receptivity to the environment
 

rosada

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Dear Listener,
Thank you for this very fitting story! This is what I am hoping will happen on this thread, that we'll create our own Portable Dragon and people can post stories, ideas, experiences, mottos, quotes, insights, song titles, recipes, virtually anything that will help us understand and remember each line.
In fact, now I'm thinking we could create The Photo album I Ching. Each page would be illustrated by a different character like Janis Joplin that represented the embodyment of line and would have questions such as favorite place, favorite motto etc. (1.6 place has gotta be New York, the city that never sleeps, and the motto "shop till you drop")

Anyway, before we exhale on 1.6 I wanted to sum up the Judgement and Image and six lines:

The whole hexagram Ch'ien seems to be about CREATING and particularly about creating one's place in the world.

The creative works sublime success. Furthering through perseverance.

If we think of "creative" as meaning "intention", this opening phrase says if we just have a clear intention and don't give up we are assured our wish will come true.

The movement of heaven is full of power.

This is probably more my own personal take on the phrase, but what I get here is that if we can see things from other points of view we can connect with how to make things happen. That is, if our point of view can move just as heaven moves, we will see how our intention is evolving and how to further it.

Thus the superior man makes himself strong and untiring.

Knowing that success is inevitable but it's gonna take time, going through some movement, going through some changes, we want to do all we can to assure we can persever to the inevitable success.

1.1 Hidden dragon. Do not act.
A caution that when first entering our area of interest, the world we would like to be a part of, we want to do nothing to arouse opposition or expectations. Just keep quiet and take notes.

1.2 Dragon appearing in the field. It furthers one to see the great man.
Note someone who is already active in your area of interest, someone who holds a position similar to one you would like to hold, someone you wish identify with.

1.3 All day long the superior man is creatively active. At nightfall his mind is still beset with cares. Danger. No blame.
Do everything that one would normally do to get in the running. Stay focused. Be wary of being pulled off your path by activities not in your relm of interest.

1.4 Wavering flight over the depths. No blame.
Okay, you're in the game. Chance to really put your own creative ideas to work now.

1.5 Flying dragon in the heavens. It furthers one to see the great man.
In with the in crowd.

1.6 Arrogant dragon will have cause to repent.
You are accepted by the flock, but do not feel you are "better" or that others would be lost without you, least this "intention" start manefesting with you being the one who is lost.
---

Wilhelms final entry on hexagram 1:

When all the lines are nines, it means:
There appears a flight of dragons without heads.
Good fortune.

Is this from the original I Ching or just an added thought of his?
 
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toganm

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rosada said:
Wilhelms final entry on hexagram 1:

When all the lines are nines, it means:
There appears a flight of dragons without heads.
Good fortune.

Is this from the original I Ching or just an added thought of his?

Original and there is a similar one for Kun when all lines are 6.

One comment may be usefull. I know you are trying to memorize or understand hexagrams/lines. One way of doing this is looking for clues in other hexagrams who have the same line.

Line 1 of Qian (Hex 1) corresponds to line 1 Fu (Hex 24). Also if you have a look into the 1 lines of Xun (Hex 57) and Gou (Hex 44) you may have a better understanding of line 1 of Qian. All these lines have a similar meaning of it is not the time for active work.

best wishes

Togan
 

rosada

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Thanks, Toganm! Reminds me of an old song..

You've got to accentuate the positive (24.1)
Eliminate the negative (44.1)
And stay away from Mr. In-Between! (57.1)
 

Trojina

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I don't get what you mean Toganm when you say it helps to "..look for clues in hexagrams who have the same line..":confused: Why have you picked out 1 lines of 24, 57 and 44 ? The same line ? You mean a yang line, um many have that :confused:

!7's first line is a yang line but specifically encourages outward going ...so if you're saying all initial yang lines mean non action then ??
 

bradford

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toganm said:
One way of doing this is looking for clues in other hexagrams who have the same line.
Togan

THis is an important technique. I would only add "who have the same line as an important structural feature" (as in the examples you cited)

Much fuss is made over various line dimensions (yao de) like correctness, holding together, resonance, rulers, etc, but most of these ideas were either invented in the Han Dynasty or cannot be shown to have existed in the minds of the original authors. Statistically they seem pretty irrelevant.

General meanings for the six places (yao wei) go much further back and their place in the author's minds is secure. There does not seem to be, however, a general trend for a changing Yin or Yang in a specific place. One is just as likely to get into the same trouble at the Top, for the same kind of behavior, regardless whether you have Top 6 or Top 9.
 

rosada

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Memorizing vs. translating

For Bradford...

It seems the new initiate was totally willing to do whatever was required but even so he had some misgivings about the practice of just copying the sacred texts without question. so he approached the Reverand Father and asked,
"Is it trully appropriate for us to just be copying copies of copies? what if someone somewhere sometime made a mistake? We could be perpetuating error all these centuries rather than bringing enlightenment."
The wise old monk patted the young fellow on the shoulder and reassured him that the quality of the copies was absolute and there need be no fear of error. And yet the question intrigued him. So much so that that evening he himself went down into the vaults to study the ancient originals. Hours went by and at last dawn came and still the old man had not returned. Concerned, younger monks went in search of him. Eventually they found the Father and the sight filled them with terror.
"Why are you crying?" they asked the old soul, for he was hudled in a corner, tears running down his cheeks, his hair matted with blood from hours of beating his head dumbly against the stone walls.
"An 'R'," he cried, "They left out the 'R'!"
"Father please," begged his bretheren, "Surely one missing R sould not cause so much concern. What was the word?'
"The word? I'll tell you the word," replied their spiritual leader, " the word was........
*
*
*
CELEBRATE!"
...
 
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bradford

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rosada said:
For Bradford...
the word was.......
CELEBRATE!"
...

Thanks. Funny story, Needs some rewriting though.
That would be two errors if celibate is spelled correctly.
Who's picky? Who puts the fun in funeral?
 

bradford

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Rosada-
You mentioned the Portable Dragon.
Here's a quote I just heard on "Deadwood"
Reminds me a whole lot of 01.4

It's from King Lear, Act 4, Scene 1
GLOUCESTER:
There is a cliff, whose high and bending head
Looks fearfully in the confined deep:
Bring me but to the very brim of it,
And I'll repair the misery thou dost bear
With something rich about me: from that place
I shall no leading need.
 

toganm

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bradford said:
THis is an important technique. I would only add "who have the same line as an important structural feature" (as in the examples you cited)

Thanks for making it clear Bradford.

Here are some quotes from Wilhelm/Baynes translation

  • "The Creative and the Receptive are indeed the gateway to the Changes ...." (p.343)


  • "The Creative and the Receptive are the real secrets of the Changes. Inasmuch as the Creative and Receptive present themselves as complete, the changes between them are also posited. ... "(p.322)
  • "... In nature all things return to their common source and are distributed along different paths, through one action, the fruits of a hundred thoughts are realized ..." (p.338)
  • " ...Dragons and snakes hibernate in order to preserve life ... " (p.338)
  • "... When a man comprehends the divine and understands the transformations he lifts his nature to the level of the miraculous." (p.338)


Hope these help
Togan
 

Trojina

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Sorry no those quotes from Wilhelm don't help. I still have no idea why you picked out those hexes or what these 'important structural features' are. Its okay I guess I'll just live not knowing.
 

toganm

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trojan said:
Sorry no those quotes from Wilhelm don't help. I still have no idea why you picked out those hexes or what these 'important structural features' are. Its okay I guess I'll just live not knowing.

Aha you want to be spoon fed :)

Dragon, in chinese mythology, is represented as flying upwards in the sky with the beginning of spring and hibernates with the beginning of autumn inorder to reemerge from the hibernation in the following spring. The withdrawal from the yang life starts with summer solstice (Hexagram 44) and it is completed with winter solstice (Hexagram 24).

Hexagram 57 is left as an exercise for the reader as one should be able to fill the remaing parts with this gentle introduction.

Best wishes
Togan
 

martin

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I also don't see it, Togan.
24.1 represents a return to the right path and there is nothing in the line that suggests that one should not act (like in 1.1).
In 57.1 the dragon (if there is one) is beset by doubts and adviced to stop hesitating. Again nothing like 'don't act' there.

Do you feed your dragons sleeping pills with that spoon of yours? :D
 

ewald

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line 1.4 again

Following Rosada's request to point out Wilhelm's "poetic liberties," I'd like to say something about 1.4. I noticed Martin already remarked that Wilhelm/Baynes' rendering doesn't quite make sense:
Wavering flight over the depths.
No blame.
Wilhelm's original text in German is actually subtly different:
Schwankender Aufschwung über die Tiefe.
Kein Makel.
The main difference comes from Cary Baynes translating "Aufschwung" to "flight," while it actually means something like flying up or flying high, with a connotation of revival, upsurge, blossoming.

This is the original Chinese text:
或 躍 在 淵 ,
旡 咎 。
The Chinese character translated with "over" () doesn't really mean that, it means in, at, on or be present. There is another character present in the Yijing that would have been used if "over" had been meant: .
This is somewhat similar to this line in the Shijing, Ode 184:
魚 潛 在 淵
meaning something like: The fish are submerged in the deep waters (the character for "submerged" is the same one as in 1.1). So what is happening in 1.4, is happening in the depths.

There is another line in the Shijing, that is also very close to line 1.4, in Ode 239:
魚 躍 于 淵
Again, this is about fish doing something in the depths. There is another Chinese character for "in," but there is not much of a change in meaning. The character telling what these fish are doing is the same one as in 1.4: . It can mean jump, leap, dance, run in a lively way, stir (something). Apparently this is about some lively movement, which Wilhelm rendered as "wavering flight." I haven't seen any dictionary actually include flight, but I guess it's a possibility.

Wilhelm didn't translate the first character of 1.4: . In my view, you can't really take such a poetic liberty, as there are so little words in the sentences of the Yijing that every one of them matters. This character means somebody, someone, something, perhaps. With the similar lines from the Shijing in mind, about these fish, I tend to think that it should be translated with "something."

As we don't know what is moving ("something"), we don't really know what kind of movement this is about. I don't know for sure whether it is about deep waters or an abyss or some other kind of depth. I'm currently translating 1.4 with this:
Something stirs in the depths.
Without fault.
(I might perhaps change "stirs" to "moves.")
 
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jesed

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Hi martin


but... 1.1 is just "don't act" just because "don't act"?

or could it be there a reason (a sense to be derivated from images and words, in Wang Pi comment) for "don't act"?..

if there is a reason.. this reason could have something to do with te reason to return quickly to the path once you acted wrong?


Of course, last post from togan shows the logic order to derivate "structural features". A very important issue to catch sense and forget images and words. This structural features are in the basis of some techniques to expand the meaning of the images and words.. example. to find past cause and future effect of any given line

Best wishes
 

martin

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Hi Jesed,

As a general rule a first line represents the beginning of a process, so all first lines have something in common.
But Togan's statement in an earlier post about 1.1, 24.1 and 57.1 was more specific:
"All these lines have a similar meaning of it is not the time for active work."

I don't see any "not the time for active work" in 24.1 or 57.1. You?
 

toganm

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martin said:
But Togan's statement in an earlier post about 1.1, 24.1 and 57.1 was more specific:
"All these lines have a similar meaning of it is not the time for active work."
I don't see any "not the time for active work" in 24.1 or 57.1. You?

Because you are thinking, you do not see it. :) Forget the words and look at the hexagrams in terms of dark, light; yang, yin. Try to see how things are manifested and are changing. Try to feel the change rather then looking to the words.

An example;

Dragon is actually hidden under the earth for Line 1. One way of seeing it is considering lines 1,2 as earth; lines 3,4 are man and lines 5,6 are heaven. So line one is under the earth and hence the dragon is hidden in the field.

One reason for 24 is it has only one yang line at the same position as Hexagram 1's line 1. Fu is return, recovery, turning point so in this case it can mean the return of the power of yang. The image of 24 says (Wilhem/Baynes p.506)
"Thus the kings of antiquity closed the passes
at the time of solstice.
Merchants and strangers did not go about
and the ruler
did not travel through the provinces"


So all activities are stopped, this is the reason line 1 of Qian is actually suggesting no action as one does not have enough power,energy yet.

Hope this helps

Togan
 

rosada

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I'm going to wait until tomorrow to take up Hexagram 2. I think a day of rest between each hexagram is necessary so we can tie up loose ends and have group discussions.
 

ewald

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rosada said:
I'm going to wait until tomorrow to take up Hexagram 2.
Starting a new thread for that one will make things easier to find with the hexagram index. Else it's all going to end up in this same thread, which makes it hard to find what you're looking for.
 

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