Moderation?

[hilary]

Recent 'discussions' - heh - have led to several people suggesting that these forums would be a better place for some more moderation. In the sense of 'forum moderation', that is. A plain rule about no personal attacks (for instance), and clear measures taken to enforce it, like warnings, post deletions, suspensions.

Please post if you'd like to discuss the ins and outs of how this would work. And also, please vote in the very simple poll at the top of this page.

(Oh, and if you'd like instead to go over and over what certain individuals have done wrong, and what unpleasant people they are, and/or how overwhelmingly biased I am in their favour, please do that in Open Space if you really must do it anywhere. I will be keeping this thread free from all that.)

 

[hattah]

“Arguments only confirm people in their own opinions” ~ Booth Tarkington

:bows:

 

[buzzurro]

I don't like moderation, it's too close to censorship. And then it would be even more work to do for you, unless some of those people who suggested the idea would volunteer to do it. But I would prefer each one of us to be responsible for self-moderation, the sheer fact of asking for moderation "from above" sounds to me as some kind of collective failure.

Also, I guess you can hardly relate to my point of view, and of course I find it saddening to come back here after a while and find some of the people whom I regard as teachers in divination and in the knowledge of the Yijing involved in a flame war, attacking and insulting each other for no reason... but, on the other hand, it's also terribly funny!


I do hope this doesn't sound offensive to anyone, I only mean: please, lighten up!
:bows:

(I know it can sound ridiculous, and it probably is, but it's alright!)

 

[Trojina]

I don't like moderation, it's too close to censorship. And then it would be even more work to do for you, unless some of those people who suggested the idea would volunteer to do it. But I would prefer each one of us to be responsible for self-moderation, the sheer fact of asking for moderation "from above" sounds to me as some kind of collective failure.

Also, I guess you can hardly relate to my point of view, and of course I find it saddening to come back here after a while and find some of the people whom I regard as teachers in divination and in the knowledge of the Yijing involved in a flame war, attacking and insulting each other for no reason... but, on the other hand, it's also terribly funny!


I do hope this doesn't sound offensive to anyone, I only mean: please, lighten up!
:bows:

(I know it can sound ridiculous, and it probably is, but it's alright!)

I like your attitude If we have to have any moderators at all i vote its you. I like the idea of a panda as a moderator. Pandas are cool, with a great sense of humour and an unbiased attitude....however they don't like moderating so.....

apart from you the only other person that could possibly moderate IMO is Hilary, just a little bit more than she does now

 

[hilary]

Years and years ago we suggested moderators, and people said nonono, only Hilary!
Mmph.
I think that the people who have never, never been involved in a flame thread, who can carry on discussing the I Ching with equanimity as if these things were not happening at all, would make good moderators. If there were lots, people could come and go from the task according to how much time they had and there would hopefully not be an impossible amount for any individual to do.

But we should probably get more of an idea of what needs doing before we start thinking about who does it.

I don't like moderation, it's too close to censorship. And then it would be even more work to do for you, unless some of those people who suggested the idea would volunteer to do it. But I would prefer each one of us to be responsible for self-moderation, the sheer fact of asking for moderation "from above" sounds to me as some kind of collective failure.

Oh, I much prefer the self-moderating forum, too. And most of the time that's exactly what we have here, and it's little short of miraculous how people resolve fights and move on. (Quote from my husband: "Um, you have seen the rest of the internet, haven't you?") I don't want to mess that up by taking all responsibility on myself to say how everyone shall behave and what they may and may not post.

However, the self-moderation doesn't always work out, and then we get - well, exactly what was continuing in Open Space when I last looked. Ugh.

 

[my_key]

Perhaps if everything was in Moderation then moderators would be unnecessary.
Self moderating forum has my vote. Responsibility and ownership firmly placed where it will be of most value.

It looks like they must have had similar problems with the forums back in the times of the Dao De Jing. Here's the rules they came up with

3 ~ How To Rule (Yourself and Others)

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Don't place a lot of value on being superior; then people wouldn't have a reason to argue with each other.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Don't hold as precious objects that are hard to come by; then people wouldn't have a reason to steal from one another.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Don't lavish attention on things that are claimed to be desirable; then people wouldn't be chaotic.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]It's just natural for a wise person to cure problems by:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Emptying their hearts;[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Satisfying their stomachs;[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Weakening their determination;[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Strengthening their bones;[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Constantly reminding people to accept ignorance and not crave more.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Making knowledge something that doesn't have to be foolishly sought after, that doesn't require any actions, and end there.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Follow that procedure and there will be nothing that doesn't cure problems.[/FONT]

Mike

 

[meng]

The IC draws strong personalities. It encourages independent thinking and living. It can be interpreted with sky-high ideals or in simplistic matter-of-fact ways.

I don’t want to be one who presents ego in a negative way, only that it is only what it is. No one can deny having one, so there’s nothing for anyone to get self righteous or “spiritual” about.

This is almost an impossible feat, imo, without an honor system or a standard. But when higher standards are constantly being torn asunder, or when the person cops a holier than thou, or a more refined, or more educated, or more experienced blah blah kind of attitude, to me is MORE of an attack than coming right out and saying the bare truth of what’s on your mind.

Who said it…. Luis, I guess, about a querent’s question being competed for, to run to be the first to answer? Something like that. That makes problems. It also makes a problem when someone gives an interpretation from an unconventional method, unless it’s specified that according to such and such method, it means this. Because one way shouldn’t be allowed to confuse every other way. If everyone is talking their own language, it becomes another tower of Babel. Whose answer wins? The one that shouts the loudest? There needs to be respect among interpreters.

Car dealers (odd comparison, no?) have a method of “who is up?”. Someone commits to being on duty/available for a specific time. If there are two people, they take their turn, or their up. It’s an honor and ethics system. If the next interpreter also offers something, they respect the interpreter before them. Most of the time, you don’t have to disagree with someone to present your own interpretation. And you certainly don’t have to intentionally try to make anyone looks foolish to make you look smart. (That seems too basic to even mention in an IC forum.)

As for me personally, there’s just one thing which sticks into my craw: constant negativity, and that includes raining of people’s dreams, visions and ideals, and constant antagonizing to get under someone’s skin. I have a weakness and an intolerance for that, and once in awhile I’m going to confront it head on, probably too clearly. Just sayin…

Bruce

 

[rodaki]

hi all,

people here know that I'm new to I ching and I rarely go into giving my understanding of other people's questions. Also I am not very technical in my approach, even though I try to learn different techniques. Which means that I might give a wrong interpretation according to older members
. . but then, keeping SR open to all is about inviting everyone willing to share points of view . . What if people post their answers not in terms of opposition to different ones, but in terms of diversity and wealth, leaving judgement of 'right' and 'wrong' aside?
Pressing the 'post' button means for all of us that we feel we have a valid point to express . . does it have to be ours against others'? There is no prize to win by giving THE answer and the last word always goes to the querent right? let's give the querents the right to decide and take responsibility for choosing what resonates with their own experience of the matter at hand. That way no one can come back and lay the blame to someone who provided them with a reading. I think all answers should come with a disclaimer for being interpretations, not hard facts . .


:bows:
rodaki

 

[meng]

Which are the conventional methods? Which are the unconventional methods?

Plain fact is most people have no method. They 'use intuition'.

Irony is that I am one of the few here to name a method that I use, and this method where I come from is completely conventional, but is regarded by some here as unconventional, simply because they don't use it or haven't heard of it.

I see interpretations given on this forum that I find completely bizarre and, from my point of view, wrong. Some argue every reading is right in some way, or right for that person, etc etc. But I think the oracle speaks clearly and is either understood or misunderstood. That said, I also believe that many just do what they do because they are stuck in the web of fate, and an I Ching reading is a bit like a fashion accessory that they will interpret much as one person sees a rabbit in the clouds and another a palm tree, the same clouds. But when one person sees an injunction from the oracle to go ahead, and another sees in the same oracle an injunction to hold back, then we can easily see that 50% are misguided.

You say:


but what if the one way is right and every other way wrong? Is it solely about reaching an agreement among fools?

Then it becomes impossible to get along with others. Any system of divination which claims to be right while the others are wrong is deeply flawed. If exclusivity is something that can not be compromised, then it should be done alone for oneself, or one on one with another. It is not a group activity if it's ones own way only.

 

[meng]

I don't find that to be the case at all, but then I'm not searching for the errors of others' interpretations. I can usually see how each individual arrived at their interpretation. Sure, one may be more accurate in a given case, but it won't be because they have the magic method or system or esoteric teaching. It will be because, first, they listened carefully to what the querent said and asked, and second, they can apply Yi's text intelligently to the querent's answer.

 

[rodaki]

hi Twilight, yes, there will be a right and wrong answer, but we can not judge that beforehand . . I believe that contradictory answers are signs of wealth and diversity -that is my point of view here . .
I guess you are saying that the querent will tend towards the answers that just sound better , but if that is true then it is up to them . .
I don't think we are preachers of truth here, nor that we should battle one another . . there is also what is called 'noble competition' (or sth like that, don't know the exact expression in english . .)

 

[meng]

Honestly, do you do this deliberately? Listen carefully, if you are blind and I say you are about to walk into a wall I am helping you out, not contravening your right to self-determination. Get it?

I used to hear that a lot from evangelical Christians. I must pull you off the bus if I know it's going to crash (ie going to hell), etc. Used to say it myself, in fact. I've outgrown it though.

If it has to be your way, if only your way is right, how can you expect to win the cooperation and support of others? Or are you only out to make converts to your way?

 

[meng]

I search for errors in my own interpretations, mainly. Through them I learn to self-correct. I have changed my mind over the meanings of many lines numerous times. But what remains constant is my desire to understand. Other are just flippant and not interested. If I point out what I believe to be errors it is done in the spirit of helping others, regardless of whether they agree, because I have seen in my own study how useful it is to appreciate certain subtleties. But if it is just about a group hug, then sure, count me out.

I think many of us go through the same things as you describe. I know I do, and do again and again. Always refining, altering, expanding and shrinking, always alchemy going on. I don't think that's exclusive to you or I. But I have to respect that others share this forum with me, and some may not be as intense nor dig as deeply, and though I may not always concur with their methods or results, I acknowledge that I am not the final authority on anything, much less on someone's future. There's something also to be said about mastering the obvious, and often the obvious is the simplest. There's nothing wrong with that, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[rodaki]

ok, maybe we agree here . . we all want intelligence . . what self-moderation strategy does it propose though?
(I am not challenging anyone, I really want to listen here . .)

 

[meng]

I don't expect cooperation or support. I expect intelligence.

Do you or I have a right to "expect" anything? Maybe that's the problem in a nutshell.

 

[rodaki]

I don't believe in self-moderation, I believe in self-knowledge. It is not for me to check my actions it is for my actions to reflect who I am. And if i am an ass-hole, then let it come across. If I am something else, let that come across. Of course, who's judging? Ass-holes, usually.

that was not about you or me Twilight, it was about how to find viable solutions about Shared Readings . .

 

[bamboo]

There are methods, but a method neednt be applied to every reading. and shouldnt be clung to.
I agree that there is right and wrong in every interpretation, but it isnt the method that produces the "right" intepretation every time. Of course, it is important to understand the meaning of the text, but that basic understanding acts as a springboard. to understanding....and to yes, intuition. In Jack Balkin's opinion, the hexagram drawn is random, it's the way that it ignites intuition that makes it accurate and telling. I am not saying that one can bend a response to whatever one wants, claiming intuition, although one can try....but intuition is valid, and to leave it out is like saying that you are separate from your own question and separate from your "answer." That is not divination to me. At some point, a reader has to trust himself. and the spirit of the thing, not just the letter.

 

[fkegan]

Can moderation bring moderation or just another target for general attack?

Hi All,
Most of the flame wars I have noticed or found myself involved in seem to involve some one or two folks feeling aggrieved for some reason and needing to vent about it, generally in a way that clearly indicates they are having some internal problem of their own.In due time they get to another place and life goes on quietly.

Policing is always tough. Police Dept note that domestic calls are their most difficult as when officers arrive and try to settle a family fight, the family members who were fighting amongst themselves all then attack the police trying to restore order. Of course here in Vegas they then tend to shoot the folks dead which complicates life for the whole family, but that's its own story.

Most of the flaming where folks cry out for assistance from higher authority involves those exact same folks doing most of the out of bounds stuff so it seems wisest to just let the flames burn themselves out and at most remove the offending posts or threads to Open Space where they can grow, develop and take on a totally new and different life of their own in due course.

Frank

 

[bamboo]

I am not assuming you think anything, Twilight.

 

[heylise]

Great posts here. Meng, Rodaki, Buzzuro, Bamboo :bows:

I can only agree with everything you said.

When they train dogs, a very effective way is to only give reward for the good behavior and ignore the bad. Not giving attention is a very effective way to make a dog change. Attention is one of the biggest rewards you can give. Even when it is negative attention.

I think it works with people very much in the same way. So maybe moderating (punishing the bad) is a lot less effective than ignoring it. And with that I only think of one post after another post. Someone starts criticizing details of your post instead of joining in the real discussion, and then simply to ignore that. The fun of nitpicking is, that it starts a long row of nitpick posts. But when there is no effect - no fun.

Not at all easy though, to ignore what annoys.

 

[Trojina]

Great posts here. Meng, Rodaki, Buzzuro, Bamboo :bows:

I can only agree with everything you said.

When they train dogs, a very effective way is to only give reward for the good behavior and ignore the bad. Not giving attention is a very effective way to make a dog change. Attention is one of the biggest rewards you can give. Even when it is negative attention.

I think it works with people very much in the same way. So maybe moderating (punishing the bad) is a lot less effective than ignoring it. And with that I only think of one post after another post. Someone starts criticizing details of your post instead of joining in the real discussion, and then simply to ignore that. The fun of nitpicking is, that it starts a long row of nitpick posts. But when there is no effect - no fun.

Not at all easy though, to ignore what annoys.

Its all subjective. What you call 'nitpicking' may be anothers 'attention to detail'. Alot of academic discussion might be called 'nit picking' but it is essential to get to the truth of things.

 

[frank_r]

Great posts here. Meng, Rodaki, Buzzuro, Bamboo :bows:

I can only agree with everything you said.

When they train dogs, a very effective way is to only give reward for the good behavior and ignore the bad. Not giving attention is a very effective way to make a dog change. Attention is one of the biggest rewards you can give. Even when it is negative attention.

I think it works with people very much in the same way. So maybe moderating (punishing the bad) is a lot less effective than ignoring it. And with that I only think of one post after another post. Someone starts criticizing details of your post instead of joining in the real discussion, and then simply to ignore that. The fun of nitpicking is, that it starts a long row of nitpick posts. But when there is no effect - no fun.

Not at all easy though, to ignore what annoys.

Lise, in the end this is the best way, at least for me also :bows: :bows:

But sometimes you cannot ignore things and you have to standup. The way you standup should always be that you keep contact with your own heart, because that is the way you feel unity. Than you never place the situation outside yourself.
The be assertive is the element wood, trigram thunder and wind. And this is the only element that is totally in balans. three yin and three yang lines. But it is the most difficult emotion to control, to be assertive( to turn tension into creative action) and keep in touch with the other and your own heart.

Frank

 

[hilary]

Thank you for the good posts here. I'm about to disappear for the rest of the day (Friday - my 'day off' - wonderful idea!) - but just wanted to explain why I just deleted a few posts. Twilight became abusive in a content-free way, so I deleted that. That made Meng's retort apparently meaningless, because he was left replying to thin air, so I deleted it (though there was nothing wrong with the post in itself), and also Twilight's response to that.

This post deleting thing is complicated! Especially since I naturally arrive after the conversation has flowed on past the initial 'problem post'. Mmph. Maybe it would be better to leave almost all posts in place, and just use something like the warnings/ suspensions system WF suggested?

I don't find that to be the case at all, but then I'm not searching for the errors of others' interpretations. I can usually see how each individual arrived at their interpretation. Sure, one may be more accurate in a given case, but it won't be because they have the magic method or system or esoteric teaching. It will be because, first, they listened carefully to what the querent said and asked, and second, they can apply Yi's text intelligently to the querent's answer.

:bows:

Policing is always tough. Police Dept note that domestic calls are their most difficult as when officers arrive and try to settle a family fight, the family members who were fighting amongst themselves all then attack the police trying to restore order.
Frank

Its all subjective. What you call 'nitpicking' may be anothers 'attention to detail'. A lot of academic discussion might be called 'nit picking' but it is essential to get to the truth of things.

Very true.

...When they train dogs, a very effective way is to only give reward for the good behavior and ignore the bad. Not giving attention is a very effective way to make a dog change. Attention is one of the biggest rewards you can give. Even when it is negative attention.

I think it works with people very much in the same way. So maybe moderating (punishing the bad) is a lot less effective than ignoring it.

What happens when I close a thread so there can be no more 'having the last word', or delete an oh-so-clever put-down so no-one can see it, or suspend someone for a week so the conversation can continue without them?

I've seen that on one of the dog training programmes, too. Time was, every time the dog misbehaved, everyone would stop what they were doing to shout at and exclaim over the dog. Now, whenever he starts being aggressive, the owner leads him out of the room without looking at him or speaking to him, and shuts him in the kitchen. After a few minutes she lets him back in, and if he starts up again she takes him back out. Through all this she continues her conversation without interruption.

(Would just like to point out that I didn't start the dog training analogy, and I don't think it's perfect...)

OK, my day off is turning into a half day. See you later

 

[rodaki]

LiSe,

I can only agree with everything you said.

When they train dogs, a very effective way is to only give reward for the good behavior and ignore the bad. Not giving attention is a very effective way to make a dog change. Attention is one of the biggest rewards you can give. Even when it is negative attention.

I think it works with people very much in the same way. So maybe moderating (punishing the bad) is a lot less effective than ignoring it. And with that I only think of one post after another post. Someone starts criticizing details of your post instead of joining in the real discussion, and then simply to ignore that. The fun of nitpicking is, that it starts a long row of nitpick posts. But when there is no effect - no fun.

Not at all easy though, to ignore what annoys.

Trojan

What you call 'nitpicking' may be anothers 'attention to detail'. Alot of academic discussion might be called 'nit picking' but it is essential to get to the truth of things.

Frank,

The way you standup should always be that you keep contact with your own heart, because that is the way you feel unity. Than you never place the situation outside yourself.
The be assertive is the element wood, trigram thunder and wind. And this is the only element that is totally in balans. three yin and three yang lines. But it is the most difficult emotion to control, to be assertive( to turn tension into creative action) and keep in touch with the other and your own heart.

all your words said have voiced my thoughts exactly . .
for me too is often hard to distinguish what is personal nitpicking and what is genuine attention to detail . . and how to stay close to my heart, ahem . .

:bows:

 

[buzzurro]

I like your attitude If we have to have any moderators at all i vote its you.

Thank you very much Trojan
The funny thing is that I'm already owner and moderator of a mailing list here in Italy.
So I can confirm what LiSe and Frank agree on, according to my own experience: it's not easy at all to ignore what annoys, but in the long run it proves to be the best way.

Actually it's less than 2 years since I took that role in the mailing list. A certain user got me into trouble more than once, I was publicly asked to unsubscribe him, and for very good reasons. It was not easy to refrain from doing it, I asked myself (and also the Yi, in one occasion!) if I was really doing the right thing or if I was forcefully imposing my own patience upon the rest of the community. Now this guy has learned to be more respectful towards other users, and believe me, it looks like a miracle!

Yet in another occasion I didn't hesitate to publicly state "you're not welcome here" and immediately unsubscribe another user, but that was a different case. The guy was clearly and openly promoting a certain kind of political thought that was much too far from the common ground of our community. So yes, sometimes you have to stand up, and in my case I would think of hex 43 or 21, or maybe one changing into the other... but I'm not sure, I'm still too 4 to decide...

 

[willowfox]

This post deleting thing is complicated! Especially since I naturally arrive after the conversation has flowed on past the initial 'problem post'. Mmph. Maybe it would be better to leave almost all posts in place, and just use something like the warnings/ suspensions system WF suggested?

Posts that are nasty, problematic or plain derogatory need to be removed immediately.

Deleting posts is complicated but very necessary for the good of the community, suspensions should be automatically imposed on a repeat offender, 1st warning, 2nd gets a strike, a week, 3rd gets a month and 4th the person is out. I believe that's a very fair punishment system don't you?

 

[maremaria]

There are some great post I agree with. No need to say much, I’ll only repeat what has already be said

Yet in another occasion I didn't hesitate to publicly state "you're not welcome here"

This is why I said to Hilary in the other poll thread that its her forum and we are guests. She build a house and she invited us to have fun. No matter how we like or not the other guests there are house rules and it’s the owners rules. She owner decides who is welcome and who is not. Because its her party and it must be the way she wants. And those rules here , are not clear enough or people don’t respect them for their own reasons. When we go to the theatre nobody has to tell us what to do. Its obvious that we should be quite and let the other enjoy the play. And if someone disturbs the peace, we can protest because those are the rules. Rules gives us rights but also we have responsibilities. They go together.We can’t use the one and ignore the other.

Here we talk about the obvious. Our right to speak and our responsibility to let the other speak. Our right to be respected and our responsibility to respect the others

Lise in a thread in SR said Hex.45 is about gathering around you what really belongs to you.

This forum attracts us because it is as it is. Why we complain? Why I complain in the first place?

Person A tries to change person B and person B tries to change person A. Is there any chance to find a solution here if we persist in that ?

Sometimes a open party can be fun, sometimes a disaster. Hope this time we can agree to what is welcome or not here, make a commitment and stick with it.

Maria

 

[meng]

In business we used to jokingly refer to it as The Golden Rule: He/she that has the gold, rules.

 

[heylise]

I agree about "attention to detail", and I like that. Nitpicking can look a lot like that, but the big difference is that it skips the good things in a post. Attention to detail adds to someone's view, even when it also criticizes, and sometimes because of that. Nitpicking only diminishes it. It does not ask for a discussion, but calls up defense.

I think I was not entirely clear about ignoring. I did not mean to ignore something you cannot let go just like that. But there are lots of posts which only scratch and nothing else. Like a knife on a plate. I think if I manage to really ignore those, I can give all my attention to the good ones and restore my own pleasure in this forum.

 

[my_key]

Great posts here. Meng, Rodaki, Buzzuro, Bamboo :bows:

I can only agree with everything you said.

When they train dogs, a very effective way is to only give reward for the good behavior and ignore the bad. Not giving attention is a very effective way to make a dog change. Attention is one of the biggest rewards you can give. Even when it is negative attention.

I think it works with people very much in the same way. So maybe moderating (punishing the bad) is a lot less effective than ignoring it. And with that I only think of one post after another post. Someone starts criticizing details of your post instead of joining in the real discussion, and then simply to ignore that. The fun of nitpicking is, that it starts a long row of nitpick posts. But when there is no effect - no fun.

Not at all easy though, to ignore what annoys.

I was particulary drawn to the posts by the same people. Good observations were made by them all. Additionally LiSe's comments on where is the best place to give attention are key to a long lasting resolution.

When something annoys us it is doing that for a good reason. We can either a) shoot from the hip or b) ask ourselves a question. A good one I have found is "What noisy noise annoys an oyster most?" It works best if you repeat it about 20 times.
It can be very informative being an oyster !!!!! Perhaps our urge to rescue someone can be better directed closer to home. Nuff said. Now I'm clamming up on that subject.

This is why I said to Hilary in the other poll thread that its her forum and we are guests. She build a house and she invited us to have fun. No matter how we like or not the other guests there are house rules and it’s the owners rules. She owner decides who is welcome and who is not. Because its her party and it must be the way she wants. And those rules here , are not clear enough or people don’t respect them for their own reasons. When we go to the theatre nobody has to tell us what to do. Its obvious that we should be quite and let the other enjoy the play. And if someone disturbs the peace, we can protest because those are the rules. Rules gives us rights but also we have responsibilities. They go together.We can’t use the one and ignore the other.

Maremaria - It's good that you raise this in this tread as well. This theme of being guests in hilary's house is a good one to have in mind. House rules are important.
It's like Taxi drivers putting a sticker on the dashboard asking people not to smoke in their cab. Clear and unambiguous. Before the sticker was applied to the dash, the passengers never knew that No smoking was a rule. During the journey their self discipline waned, their addiction for the nicotine got the upper hand and the atmospehere in the cab be came unpleasant and overtime the whole of the inside of the cab turns a yucky stained colour.

HILARY - An idea for you to consider. As well as having the post at the top of teh page outlining you expectations for behaviour within your house, how about emailing all members and all NEW members so that the house rules are clear and visible right from the start. Maybe even in joining there is a sign up to the house rules. All the software companies do this online when you want to use their product.
Remember though, whatever the expectations laid out always expect the unexpected.

Mike