Modesty and Money

[louise]

Can anyone help with interpretation of hexagram 15, Modesty. I have thrown this twice when asking about my financial situation. First I asked 'what do i need to do to earn money now' and received 15, line 5 moving. A few days later I asked 'what am i going to do about money', and received 15 again this time with lines 3,4 and 6 moving.
I don't know what Yi is trying to say to me here.
Is it that I should be more modest, or have more humility ? Its hard for me to see how this relates to my question, but as I have thrown the same answer twice, I would like to understand more what it is saying. Can anyone help ? Does line 5 indicate it is okay to take resources from others at this time ?

 

[willow]

Hi Louise,

This is very quick, and I'm sure there are other aspects too, but here might be some possibilities.

15 --> 39 What do I need to do to earn money now?
Perhaps there is more to earning than quid pro quo. While you are looking at earning money, what is going on with other areas of wealth/value for you right now? The part of the hx about making the fullness empty, and the empty full suggests that maybe sort of pulling back to a larger perspective will give an insight.

Also, esp w/ the line5, it seems that something like "confident limping" or "modest, but not weak, limping" is suggested. That is, that if you cannot go at $ with the "full stride" that you are accustomed to using in your life, there is no blame in this, and you shouldn't think less of yourself or put less of your confidence and being into what you can do. If that means asking for help, as you suggest, do it with modest confidence, not with reluctant apology.

15 --> 35 What am I going to do about money?
A variety of things. A little bit at a time. Be alert to the small chances, not just waiting, not intent only on the big score.

Hope that is at least a little help!

 

[louise]

Thanks Willow, you have put forward some interesting ideas there. I like the idea of 'confident limping' - i think thats me right now. I may have to ask for help, I really don't want to as I would feel some shame, but if I do perhaps it would help me to ask with a sense of 'modest confidence' rather than 'reluctant apoology'.
Thanks for your help. Louise

 

[louise]

Thinking about earning/wealth/value, I personally find it very hard to make any real sense of those things. The value of my money changes according to how much I've got. I find it hard to take seriously unless I have'nt got any. Some people make alot of money doing completley worthless things (in my view) others make little money when their work is of great value. I guess if the individuals values do not concord with the values of the wider society then getting money becomes a bit of a game.

 

[heylise]

The name of hex.15, Qian, or Chien, is a hand which holds together two (or more) stalks of grain, and the picture of ?words?. The part of the hand with the stalks means ?united?, and this part with ?bird? added is a mythical bird with one wing and one eye: two of them could fly together, in perfect unison. So this hand-with-stalks with words is something like ?speaking in perfect cooperation?. It is always translated as modesty, but there is no word in English equivalent to the Chinese meaning of Qian.
Maybe this makes more sense in regard to making money? Adding your part, your skills, to something or someone, so together you will be able to do much more than each on his own.
Hope it adds something to your reading
LiSe

 

[louise]

Thanks LiSe for adding some more knowledge of the meaning of the hexagram Modesty. I always have difficulty with this hexagram and it seems likley from what you say, that this arises becauses of no exact translation of Qian.
The english word 'modesty' is not one we really use much, and is not a word I think I really understand other than meaning not being conceited or arrogant. It is never clear to me then when getting this answer whether I'm being told that my attitude is already 'modest' or that I need to be more so. (over confidence is definately not one of my character traits) I think I take it that the moving lines, especially line 5, are saying "don't let undue modesty restrict your actions, ie sometimes you have to be openly confident about what you do, even if it may appear pushy". Do others agree with this ?
However because, as you say, there is no good translation for Qian, we may often miss the point this hexagram is making altogether.
This hexagram is the only one I think that has no moving lines with any negative implications.
I have to get my head around understanding 'speaking in perfect cooperation', I get the feeling I, and maybe others too, am always missing something in regard to this hexagram.

I will try to rethink my position more in terms of 'perfect cooperation'. I guess working and making money is always a cooperative venture. Working is always serving in some way to meet the needs of the world, its never something that is done totally alone.
Thanks for giving me food for thought LiSe and I do love your 'Book of the Moon' by the way.

Louise

 

[hilary]

Hi Louise,

Another perspective on #15: various etymologists have got very keen on the idea that the 'words' part of the current character should be replaced with 'rodent' (is that right, LiSe?) and the original is about a Korean grey hamster, a rather large rat-like creature.

Sounds like gibberish, true. But I think this could refer to the experience of meeting one of these animals, coming up from its deep burrows on the edges of your farmland, standing on its hind legs in a human-like posture, unafraid. I think of it as an image for meeting a part of yourself that was hidden - a 'uniting and grasping-together rodent' that represents encountering yourself.

So... maybe Qian is seeing yourself with complete honesty and no roles/images in the way. (The best foundation for LiSe's 'uniting words'?)

The commentaries lay stress on taking yourself lightly and not being 'over-full' of yourself, and for me that seems to be good advice every time... For others it can work the other way - see your real self, not some diminished version. There's certainly no feel of self-abasement (probably that's just another role).

I suspect that this complete, filter-free, role-playing-free, self-image-free honesty (Bradford translates it 'Integrity' - I like that) is rare as hen's teeth. Hence the Judgement saying the noble one brings it to a successful end: this is the standard you need to meet. In my case it hasn't so far meant 'congratulations, you've attained perfection'

Maybe line 5 has some of the straightforwardness of our rodent - you recognise what you need, and you go and get it. If it isn't pouring in towards you, you go out to it. I like what LiSe says about this line very much. Willow, too.

Lines 3, 4, 6 together lead to integrity in using your own talents to the full. Maybe the lines are a progression, each a foundation for the next - starting with furiously hard work, then letting who you are show clearly - Wilhelm says 'in such a position, modesty is shown by interest in one's work' rather than by avoiding extra responsibilities. Line 6 is still stronger - the 'call' or reputation of honesty that stands you in good stead for finding allies to achieve radical change in the way things are run. No hiding your light under a bushel here.

Does this make any sort of sense?

 

[heylise]

It is right that words can be replaced by rodent, but a little bit in a different way. The old characters were simpler than nowadays, they did not have all those extra parts which clarified the exact meaning. Probably qian had neither words, nor rodent, nor any other extra part, but only the main ?unite? part, and it included all those other meanings.
Communities were small, there were not many misunderstandings. Later, with more and more people, it was necessary to pin down what you meant exactly. Chinese are still very vague, compared to Western languages, that is what I love about the language. Even simple sentences are loaded with associations, poetry all around.
I went to the wonderful dictionary I have, Ricci, and for qian without anything added it says: assemble, associate, two things simultaneously, absorb, annex, double, twice, all together and equal, universal, include all.
For Qian with the words it also gives simultaneously as one of its meanings, and it is exchangeable with the one without words. So I think the meanings of ?together? and the like are much closer to its real meaning than the ?modesty? ones.
LiSe

 

[louise]

Hi Hilary thanks for your ideas. Originally when I asked the I Ching I was focusing on money as separate entity from working/earning - sounds strange i know but money/material support can arrive in many forms. Here though I think the answers I received point most definately to working and dealing with the situation in a very straight forward way. I had been burying my head in the sand with regard to my financial situation and I take the answers now to mean 'get your feet on the ground and you'll be okay'. If however I should win the lottery tomorrow I may review the situation.

 

[gene]

Hi everyone

This is an old, old post, I know. But I was searching for some info on hexagram 15. There is a more recent thread on this, but this one gave me some new perspectives. In my personal readings, I almost never receive #15, but lately I have. I have often felt there is more here than one might meet by the Wilhelm Baynes version, and even other popular versions. But the idea of harmony or unison makes a lot of sense. The mountain in this hexagram is becoming one with, and equal to the earth.

Gene

 

[chrislofting]

Hi gene,

hex 15 overall covers (!) levelling things, even things out, reduce highs, fill in the lows. It seems to have its roots in the mix of hexagrams 52 and 22. 52 covers issues of quality control, 22 issues of facading, gloss over, beautify.

In the binary sequence 52 pairs with 15 and 15 is the more integrating (and so the focus on reducing exaggerations) 52 the more differentiating, the focus on 'quality', on 'discernment' that comes out of the more basic sense of blocking etc.

The sense of levelling is reflected in the binary sequence with 15 opposing 10 - the focus on 10 is on careful following of a path, a need for discipline and so to remain 'level' as you move along. IOW 15 levels what is around you, 10 you have to level yourself, operate within the constrains of the path etc., and so the focus on 'conduct' and 'treading' etc etc.

In the traditional sequence 15 pairs with 16 where there is in the pair and overall sense of establishing ORDER. 15 through active levelling, 16 through careful use of foresight/planning (all done with enthusiasm ;-))

In the traditional sequence 15 'opposes' 50 - the overall focus of the pair reflected in the concept of transformation - 15 levels out, 50 'refines' and so transforms 'up' ;-)

At the REALLY generic level of the basic feelings behind the hexagrams 15 is contractive blending in a context of contrative bonding and so ANY expressions that fit in to those generic categories can fit (see the "Species I Ching" page I posted to the forum a while back)

As to your notes on balance, there is a sense present in the act of levelling but the levelling is conditional - as in the root trigram of mountain that favours quality control in general. The unconditional forms of balance are in 11 and 12. 11 harmonises, 12 neutralises. With this we note that in the binary sequence 12 is next to 15 BUT not paired, 12 pairs with 45, 15 with 52. The sequence around 15 is:

...16, 35, 45, 12, 15, 52, 39, 53...

Hope some of this helps on your reflections upon 15 ;-)

Chris.