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Mother n daughter relationship

mary f

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I need help with this.
My mother and I have in general a good relationship throughout time, but there is always a point at which we stall and can't understand each other. Sometimes I don't have patience with her slowness and negligence towards life and react strongly (she says unpolitely but I do not agree). OTOH she always seems to adopt the victim role what causes a guilty feeling. I wonder if I am the wrong party, if she is the wrong party, if this would be the famous catholic guilt, how could I do to improve our relationship and who she really feels about me.
I asked: "What do I need to know about my strong reactions?"
Answer: 5.3 >> 60 (this is not so confusing, seems to tell me to be patient)
Then: "How does she feel about me?"
Answer: 49.3 >> 17 :confused::confused::confused:
Confused I asked again, this time specifically about her love for me.
Answer: 40.1.2 >> 51 :confused::confused::confused::confused:

Thanks in advance. :hug:
 

Trojina

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I need help with this.
My mother and I have in general a good relationship throughout time, but there is always a point at which we stall and can't understand each other. Sometimes I don't have patience with her slowness and negligence towards life and react strongly (she says unpolitely but I do not agree). OTOH she always seems to adopt the victim role what causes a guilty feeling. I wonder if I am the wrong party, if she is the wrong party, if this would be the famous catholic guilt, how could I do to improve our relationship and who she really feels about me.
I asked: "What do I need to know about my strong reactions?"
Answer: 5.3 >> 60 (this is not so confusing, seems to tell me to be patient)
Then: "How does she feel about me?"
Answer: 49.3 >> 17 :confused::confused::confused:
Confused I asked again, this time specifically about her love for me.
Answer: 40.1.2 >> 51 :confused::confused::confused::confused:

Thanks in advance. :hug:

Perhaps your strong reactions just cause you to lose clarity, cloud your view, bogged down in the swamps. But this is in the context of hex 5 waiting...so its an image of getting stuck somewhere while you are waiting. The fanyao is 60.3 not having restraint gives regret ..and the flip side you got 5.3 hanging around gets you bogged down. Makes me wonder if you are just spending too much time and energy around your mother or in her prescence...the strong reactions may come through feeling stuck and trapped. perhaps you need to place a limit (60) internal or external on her place in your life.

BTW you aren't alone i think many women have these kind of issues with their mother. My reactions to mine are very strong too even when shes being perfectly sweet :rolleyes: I've come to the conclusion its a kind of boundary issue. Perhaps we are so enmeshed in one another on some level ( we did emerge from her ) we push each others buttons too easy so limits are important..space and distance to see one another as seperate people rahter than mother/daughter.

49.3 how does she feel about you ? (Phew thats a heavy question do you think it can be summed up in a line...I'm sure its likely her feelings are deep and complex like most mothers for their kids) Hmm gives me an impression of trying to figure you out lol, needing to understand, needing to talk. If theres a change sought in your relationship (49) it needs to happen when all have had time to digest the issues, perhaps more chatting and discussion..3 times then its accepted

40>51 her love for you. As a sentence it reads 'liberating thunder' I'm not sure if this question is being answered directly -as its quite a deep question. 51 can be about strong reaction, passion and 40- the release of it. Struggling to articulate an answer here, though i kind of like the image. Its like you need to liberate each other and that may be through strong words, release of strong emotion. You ask 'I wonder if I am the wrong party, if she is the wrong party' perhaps thats the question that could stand being blown to bits to liberate you both. What if neither of you were the wrong party you were just negotiating the difficulties of love and enmeshment...if so looks good for positive release increasing emotional vitality. Sorry can't be more specific..perhaps others can
 

em ching

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I asked: "What do I need to know about my strong reactions?"
Answer: 5.3 >> 60 (this is not so confusing, seems to tell me to be patient)
Then: "How does she feel about me?"
Answer: 49.3 >> 17 :confused::confused::confused:
Confused I asked again, this time specifically about her love for me.
Answer: 40.1.2 >> 51 :confused:

Thanks in advance. :hug:

5.3 perhaps you are in a mud of pent up anger towards her from childhood which you need to let go of rather than fuel..perhaps it's saying you should acknowlege why you're angry, perhaps resentment of her negligent or passive ways making you feel not special, which obv effects self esteem.. and then Limitation, about trying to put a break on these familiar reactions - perhaps realise she is only human, and stop blaming her for who she is.
I think 5.3 is saying that even though it's unfair, it's your duty as a daughter perhaps to absorb and accept your mother's weaknesses (the mud perhaps) and then cleanse yourself from their influence.. if that makes sense..

49.3 > 'repeated and well founded complaints should not fail of a hearing'
I think your mum is aware that there is something wrong which needs to be changed. Perhaps she is unsure how to broach it with you.. She cares about you so she doesn't want to push you away, but she wants to improve your relationship and be open with you.

Of course she loves you! She's your ma'! :) (40.1 'no words are needed')
Changing to the arousing also always spells love I reckon.. heaving heart..

Hope that helps! Think you just need to talk and perhaps laugh at human imperfection and dysfunctional families.. no parent can be perfect - unless you read all the guides maybe!

I asked about my relationship with my father the other day, as similarly, I errupt with anger with him sometimes.. feeling anger and exasperation as I do with no one else.. and then feel guilty.

I received 21.3 > 30
'The matter at issue is an old one' (always been discord but then also we sometimes get on like a house on fire)
I think here saying don't keep 'chewing on the bad meat' ie re-visiting old feelings of anger with him, which are now perhaps unfair but old habits die hard..
So work on it, temperance and patience.. leading to hex 30 (there is a light of love there despite the day to day difficulties that may arise.. and that's worth curbing the anger for..)

Like changing to following hex 17 - you will always be together so try and let go of negative dynamics..

:hug::bows:
 
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bamboo

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Dear Mary,
As em ching says, you are certainly not alone. Mothers can be so infuriating and confusing. I swore I would be a more enlightened mother to my own daughter and I cringe when i hear the same complaints from her about me that I have had about my own mom.

5.3 is a great description of the kind of dynamic that causes me trouble with my mom. If I am not prepared for her before I interact with her, I am in that 5.3 place...very vulnerable and liable to react. 60 : reminder of need to put the boundaries in place before moving forward.

49.3 I think maybe moms have a hard time seeing us as grown-ups, no matter how old we are. maybe your mom has discovered that you are a grown woman but she has relapses when she thinks you're five again;). give her time becaus she really wants a relationship with you, too:rolleyes:17

and 40.1.2 oh my, perfect! a mothers love is all about forgiveness and needing forgiveness. her love for you is like a thunderbolt:eek::eek:
 

mary f

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Perhaps your strong reactions just cause you to lose clarity, cloud your view, bogged down in the swamps. But this is in the context of hex 5 waiting...so its an image of getting stuck somewhere while you are waiting. The fanyao is 60.3 not having restraint gives regret ..and the flip side you got 5.3 hanging around gets you bogged down. Makes me wonder if you are just spending too much time and energy around your mother or in her prescence...the strong reactions may come through feeling stuck and trapped. perhaps you need to place a limit (60) internal or external on her place in your life.

I like your interpretation Troyan!! That’s exactly how I feel. It’s incredible but I know I lose clarity. I have little patience. My initial interpretation on 5.3 was: “put limits in your lack of patience”, but somehow this thought lets me in a type of despair because I fail in that. Fanyao… I still have to learn a lot about it… OTOH I’m so sure I have to spend less time with her. I hope I can do that. I feel very stuck because she lives with me and depends on me. I don’t know how to get out of that and I pray it’s not something like a spiritual rescue, like a kind of spell on me. I don’t mean to be rude, but I just fear my life is going in directions I don’t like because of it.


BTW you aren't alone i think many women have these kind of issues with their mother. My reactions to mine are very strong too even when shes being perfectly sweet :rolleyes: I've come to the conclusion its a kind of boundary issue. Perhaps we are so enmeshed in one another on some level ( we did emerge from her ) we push each others buttons too easy so limits are important..space and distance to see one another as seperate people rahter than mother/daughter.


Yes… I see that. BTW, my mother is not sweet. We both do not show affection for each other. But what annoys me is the attitude she adopts towards my crude reactions is just playing the victim role for days. I feel devastated with that.


49.3 how does she feel about you ? (Phew thats a heavy question do you think it can be summed up in a line...I'm sure its likely her feelings are deep and complex like most mothers for their kids) Hmm gives me an impression of trying to figure you out lol, needing to understand, needing to talk. If theres a change sought in your relationship (49) it needs to happen when all have had time to digest the issues, perhaps more chatting and discussion..3 times then its accepted


49 – it’s maybe silly but I feel she doesn’t love me enough because she shows how bad she feels to depend ($$ly) on me. She definitely tries to figure me out. I push her a lot for life. I started seeing 49.3 as Yi telling me “accept it, it’s irreversible”. And the thing about ghosts is what scared me (as I mentioned above). I saw 17 reinforcing all this.
But your interpretation now seems far more mature. Yes, chatting, discussions, ugh. I wish I could run out.


40>51 her love for you. As a sentence it reads 'liberating thunder' I'm not sure if this question is being answered directly -as its quite a deep question. 51 can be about strong reaction, passion and 40- the release of it. Struggling to articulate an answer here, though i kind of like the image. Its like you need to liberate each other and that may be through strong words, release of strong emotion. You ask 'I wonder if I am the wrong party, if she is the wrong party' perhaps thats the question that could stand being blown to bits to liberate you both. What if neither of you were the wrong party you were just negotiating the difficulties of love and enmeshment...if so looks good for positive release increasing emotional vitality. Sorry can't be more specific..perhaps others can"


It's very fine Troyan. Thanks. There's really something to be released (40) in both of us; we're very cold persons. I know there is love though. I don't know why I doubt it sometimes, but it's just silly from me thinking like that. That was an useless question.

Tks very much!!! It truly helped a lot.

Nice weekend :)
 

Trojina

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I like your interpretation Troyan!! That’s exactly how I feel. It’s incredible but I know I lose clarity. I have little patience. My initial interpretation on 5.3 was: “put limits in your lack of patience”, but somehow this thought lets me in a type of despair because I fail in that. Fanyao… I still have to learn a lot about it… OTOH I’m so sure I have to spend less time with her. I hope I can do that. I feel very stuck because she lives with me and depends on me. I don’t know how to get out of that and I pray it’s not something like a spiritual rescue, like a kind of spell on me. I don’t mean to be rude, but I just fear my life is going in directions I don’t like because of it.

Ah I hadn't realised that, that does make a difference doesn't it, she depends on you, you can't get way. Thats very hard, I do sympathise and I also think only a saint could remain calm all the time in this situation.



Yes… I see that. BTW, my mother is not sweet. We both do not show affection for each other. But what annoys me is the attitude she adopts towards my crude reactions is just playing the victim role for days. I feel devastated with that.

Does sound like she is being emotionally manipulative in a way thats harmful to you. Sounds like you need to be able to extricate yourself from getting caught up in these games...5.3 becomes much clearer, about being bogged down. Blaming yourself probably clouds things even further and she gives you lots of fuel to blame yourself. Its a shame you can't show affection for each other as you obviously do care for her or you wouldn't be supporting her.



49 – it’s maybe silly but I feel she doesn’t love me enough because she shows how bad she feels to depend ($$ly) on me. She definitely tries to figure me out. I push her a lot for life. I started seeing 49.3 as Yi telling me “accept it, it’s irreversible”. And the thing about ghosts is what scared me (as I mentioned above). I saw 17 reinforcing all this.
But your interpretation now seems far more mature. Yes, chatting, discussions, ugh. I wish I could run out.

Er if i were in your situation I think I'd find it very hard to be 'mature'. Shes being difficult becuase she doesn't like to be dependent on you, thats such a difficult situation. I can't see you should accept destructive manipulative behaviour fom her,that doesn't do either of you any good.

Not sure if you have to live with her in order to physically care for her or its just financial arrangement, its just i can see you really do need a bit more space from her. But I think its great you care for her, many don't even bother with their mothers. Don't be too hard on yourself :)

Could be these games she plays of being the victim etc are ways to get you to give her more attention etc we all have weird ways of trying to get what we want from others. I wonder how she'd react if you were suddenly openly affectionate to her.

Now I know the situation more, looking at the answers 5.3 showing you bogged down, then 49.3 changes that needs discussing, then 40>51..if we forget the actual questions for a moment (and the Yi does bypass these sometimes) its like a story of someone being stuck (5.3) thinking and discussing change (49.3) then finally being freed , not stuck anymore (40>51) it does give a picture of someone climbing out of a swamp. Don't know how thats going to happen but 5.3 can't last forever.
 
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mary f

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5.3 perhaps you are in a mud of pent up anger towards her from childhood which you need to let go of rather than fuel..perhaps it's saying you should acknowlege why you're angry, perhaps resentment of her negligent or passive ways making you feel not special, which obv effects self esteem.. and then Limitation, about trying to put a break on these familiar reactions - perhaps realise she is only human, and stop blaming her for who she is.
I think 5.3 is saying that even though it's unfair, it's your duty as a daughter perhaps to absorb and accept your mother's weaknesses (the mud perhaps) and then cleanse yourself from their influence.. if that makes sense..

You know Em, that should be true, but I feel this situation is from a lifetime…  Well, there is a tidbit I threw above showing the whole thing. I’m just sad to notice – with the help of Troyan, yours and Bamboo’s – and from Yi of course – that I still have some ghosts that have to be busted. I seek maturity desperately but it escapes :D – surprises me. On the other hand I see “pop-ups” like “ you take the responsibility because blaming it on your parents is weakness. Then rationalizing, I conclude that it’s not a matter of pointing fingers, it’s a feeling and a reaction. Argh.



49.3 > 'repeated and well founded complaints should not fail of a hearing'
I think your mum is aware that there is something wrong which needs to be changed. Perhaps she is unsure how to broach it with you.. She cares about you so she doesn't want to push you away, but she wants to improve your relationship and be open with you.
Of course she loves you! She's your ma'! (40.1 'no words are needed')
Changing to the arousing also always spells love I reckon.. heaving heart.

49.3 >> 17 - Could also show that she feels that I make some kind of shaking in her life and she has to live with it, go ahead.
Well, 40.1.2 >> 51 is weird. I shouldn’t have asked this. Yet, changing perspective it may just mean – as said Trojan – releasing thunder.


Hope that helps! Think you just need to talk and perhaps laugh at human imperfection and dysfunctional families.. no parent can be perfect - unless you read all the guides maybe!

LOL – but I still have very little patience even to talk.

I asked about my relationship with my father the other day, as similarly, I errupt with anger with him sometimes.. feeling anger and exasperation as I do with no one else.. and then feel guilty.
I received 21.3 > 30
'The matter at issue is an old one' (always been discord but then also we sometimes get on like a house on fire)
I think here saying don't keep 'chewing on the bad meat' ie re-visiting old feelings of anger with him, which are now perhaps unfair but old habits die hard..
So work on it, temperance and patience.. leading to hex 30 (there is a light of love there despite the day to day difficulties that may arise.. and that's worth curbing the anger for..)

As to your reading on your father, I’d prefer to study more before commenting.
In my case, it’s hard to feel I’m revisiting old feelings. These feelings are just felt now, deliberately. Things I have to fix.
Thank you so much Em.
;)
 

em ching

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You're welcome! :)
Yeah I guess they annoy you as children and as adults.. so I guess it comes down to patience and biting the tongue (and a bit of distance always helps ;)

:bows:
 

mary f

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Dear Mary,
As em ching says, you are certainly not alone. Mothers can be so infuriating and confusing. I swore I would be a more enlightened mother to my own daughter and I cringe when i hear the same complaints from her about me that I have had about my own mom.

Thanks for replying Bamboo. LOL. I can imagine.

5.3 is a great description of the kind of dynamic that causes me trouble with my mom. If I am not prepared for her before I interact with her, I am in that 5.3 place...very vulnerable and liable to react. 60 : reminder of need to put the boundaries in place before moving forward.

I wish I could be as patient as you say you are with your mother. :D
Apart from the other indications on 5.3 >> 60, I’m now convinced that the Yi is telling me to be patient. At the end of the day, one needs patience to live… I have to improve on that.


49.3 I think maybe moms have a hard time seeing us as grown-ups, no matter how old we are. maybe your mom has discovered that you are a grown woman but she has relapses when she thinks you're five again . give her time becaus she really wants a relationship with you, too 17

and 40.1.2 oh my, perfect! a mothers love is all about forgiveness and needing forgiveness. her love for you is like a thunderbolt

I hope so Bamboo and it's really about giving and receiving. But I don’t like the idea that I have to act as her mother. That's why I ask "Am I really as vile as I fear I am?" And suffer with the idea that that I hurt her, ruin her life with my attitudes" Learning how to change may be a challenge for a lifetime. Maybe I'm exxagerating with all these and should get back to life. :( Uffh.

All the best.
 

mary f

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Ah I hadn't realised that, that does make a difference doesn't it, she depends on you, you can't get way. Thats very hard, I do sympathise and I also think only a saint could remain calm all the time in this situation.

Thank you so much!!! And since I’m very far from being a saint, I’m “falling down”.

Does sound like she is being emotionally manipulative in a way thats harmful to you. Sounds like you need to be able to extricate yourself from getting caught up in these games...5.3 becomes much clearer, about being bogged down. Blaming yourself probably clouds things even further and she gives you lots of fuel to blame yourself. Its a shame you can't show affection for each other as you obviously do care for her or you wouldn't be supporting her.

What you just said effectlively helps.

Er if i were in your situation I think I'd find it very hard to be 'mature'. Shes being difficult becuase she doesn't like to be dependent on you, thats such a difficult situation. I can't see you should accept destructive manipulative behaviour fom her,that doesn't do either of you any good.
Not sure if you have to live with her in order to physically care for her or its just financial arrangement, its just i can see you really do need a bit more space from her. But I think its great you care for her, many don't even bother with their mothers. Don't be too hard on yourself

Thanks heaven she just depends on me financially. But to be honest I fear that being rude with her (either in this or another life) shall make me be responsible for even more. I mean, Tao. Don’t know I’m clear to express it. It just occurred to me this is a good question to ask the Yi. I’ll do that soon.

Now I know the situation more, looking at the answers 5.3 showing you bogged down, then 49.3 changes that needs discussing, then 40>51..if we forget the actual questions for a moment (and the Yi does bypass these sometimes) its like a story of someone being stuck (5.3) thinking and discussing change (49.3) then finally being freed , not stuck anymore (40>51) it does give a picture of someone climbing out of a swamp. Don't know how thats going to happen but 5.3 can't last forever.

Oh yeah!! The bypass now seems to be proved, starting with Hex. 5, that really says the clouds won’t last forever. Then 49 would show the antagonism (fire and water, lake). Then the analysis is for both of us. It’s clearer now, and after I studied Wilhelm. Before I was reading Karcher and sometimes he has confusing interpretations. Within Hex. 49’s nuclear trigrams we see fire being fed by wind. Wind is wood, that shows the need to be firm (exactly like you said) and above both there is heaven that guarantees the firmness. Lovely!!
And 40, yes, how could the Yi answer such a silly question I asked? Thus, 40 would mean getting back to track, with line 2 emphasizing the way out (the yellow arrow). Well, how about this: 51 showing that she wouldn’t like very much my firmness, but that would pass. How about this one?

Oh, this community is our panacea!!!
Thank you very very much.
 

ginnie

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Two women

Hex 49, "like two women who live together but whose wills conflict." I see that you and your mother are really, really two very different kinds of people. No wonder you don't get along. Guilt trips and a lot of bad feeling are the result of daily misunderstandings whenever you're together; and you live with her. You tend to work at cross-purposes to each other. This prevents you personally from ever getting anything done of any real consequence, because these disagreements with your mother occupy your mind day and night.

Do you think it might be possible that you could live separately from your mother? I'm sure you have thought of this a hundred thousand times.

Have you noticed that every time you lash out at your mother, the bad feeling sort of boomerangs around, and you get hit with the consequences? For your own sake, perhaps you might try being more polite and using a softer tone of voice when you speak with her. This would apply to anyone you perceive as being difficult to get along with, not just your mother. Whenever you allow yourself to lose your temper, you're really only hurting yourself. This is not self-expression. It's only losing control. Hexagram 60, your relating hexagram, is about regaining your self-control.

The yellow arrow means the Golden Mean, not going to extremes, do unto others as you would have others do unto you, the Middle Way -- practicing moderation in your words and actions. Since the Yi says you will capture the yellow arrow, that means you will find the tools to steer a middle course and not go to any extremes. These days, we have all been urged by pop psychology to "let it all hang out" for the sake of our mental health, but the philosophy of the Yi is quite different. The I Ching says that true freedom from difficult people only comes from self-control. ;) Best of luck!
 

mary f

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Unpoliteness is not the case Barbra. The "strong reactions" are not rough, but impatient. The essence is that day-by-day life is heavily tiring and makes me see the need of being warmer and friendlier with the several times a day approches for every little decision / reason. The strength to be under control is oppressing. I approached the Yi to try to comprehend the reason (Taowise) for this lack of patience and asked how she feels to try to add comprehension on this.
Thanks a lot anyway. Your view is very helpful.
:)
 

ginnie

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Moving lines in Karcher

It’s clearer now, and after I studied Wilhelm. Before I was reading Karcher and sometimes he has confusing interpretations.

Oh, this community is our panacea!!!
Thank you very very much.[/COLOR]

Many times Karcher says to "Go, go, go. Take the risk," in situations where other translators have traditionally said, "Be very cautious." If one possesses other good translations, one can easily notice these reversals and discrepancies. I think it's good you have switched away from using the Karcher translation for moving lines and are exploring other translations. I must say, however, that when Karcher came out with his deeper, more metaphysical and mythological approach, he saved my life in another way. I am deeply indebted to Stephen Karcher -- but not for his translations of the moving lines. :eek:
 

mary f

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Moving lines in Karcher
Many times Karcher says to "Go, go, go. Take the risk," in situations where other translators have traditionally said, "Be very cautious." If one possesses other good translations, one can easily notice these reversals and discrepancies. I think it's good you have switched away from using the Karcher translation for moving lines and are exploring other translations. I must say, however, that when Karcher came out with his deeper, more metaphysical and mythological approach, he saved my life in another way. I am deeply indebted to Stephen Karcher -- but not for his translations of the moving lines.

Thanks Barbra. That's very interesting :) :) :)

P.S.: BTW, I always felt something confusing with Karcher's lines.
 
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mary f

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marien
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mary,
I've found Nigel Richmond's translation helpful for understanding things at the inner level. Maybe it would work for your questions. The link is a pdf; scroll down a ways to get the the hexagrams.

Thanks a lot Marien!!!! Great material I didn't know.
;)
 

dobro p

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The strength to be under control is oppressing. I approached the Yi to try to comprehend the reason (Taowise) for this lack of patience and asked how she feels to try to add comprehension on this.

Well, don't wear yourself out trying to control the feeling, cuz it's coming from a relatively deep pattern in your personality, just control the expression of the feeling if you can. That way you can observe the pattern better and see how it operates. With these entrenched emotional patterns (can you say 'mother'? lol) there's no way you're going to get rid of them overnight, but if you pay attention to them you CAN see how they operate better. And you know what? You're better off with that approach, looking at YOUR reactions and feelings than you are looking at your mum's feelings. I mean, even if you knew your mum's feelings, even if you knew about her love for you, what difference would it make? Depending on what you found out, it might give you some warm, fuzzy feelings, or it might make you feel like an orphan, but would YOU be any different? Would you understand the emotions and reactions coming up in you any better? Nope.

It's so difficult letting go of the central importance of mum in your life sometimes. I mean, she was so important for so long that it's like a habit, right? But there's something more important than mum in everybody's life, and when you find that, it helps you find your proper place in relation to mum. And that helps mum find her proper place in relation to YOU, too. lol Some mums need all the help they can get lol.
 

dobro p

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Ah sorry, did I crash the party? Or just miss the end of it?

Either way, sorry.
 

kdedeaux4

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thinking

Hi Mary,
I'm usually asking you for help because I never trust my own ability to interpret, but my first thought looking over your responses, was the question of trust. Are there any underlying trust issues at work here between you two?
The other thought that came to me was the transition of relationships, as in child moving to adult, mother moving to child. That's of course a drastic example, but hopefully it makes at least a bit of sense...? Those transitions are difficult for everyone, as we often try to keep the relationship in one place, when in reality those "positions" within the relationship are shifting all the time. Anyway, through these subtle (or not so subtle) changes, in themselves, a trust issue can occur; as in neither feel altogether secure in their position as a manner of how to relate to each other within the relationship.

Just some thoughts that came to mind as I looked at your questions and their
responses...
I can sympathize with your frustration here.
Blessings to you:)
 

bamboo

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Ah sorry, did I crash the party? Or just miss the end of it?

Either way, sorry.

? ? why would you be sorry for crashing the party? I really liked what you had to say.
BTW, I think you came at the end of the party and everyone is lying around too tired to move. mother issues can really do that to ya.
 

mary f

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Well, don't wear yourself out trying to control the feeling, cuz it's coming from a relatively deep pattern in your personality, just control the expression of the feeling if you can. That way you can observe the pattern better and see how it operates. With these entrenched emotional patterns (can you say 'mother'? lol) there's no way you're going to get rid of them overnight, but if you pay attention to them you CAN see how they operate better. And you know what? You're better off with that approach, looking at YOUR reactions and feelings than you are looking at your mum's feelings. I mean, even if you knew your mum's feelings, even if you knew about her love for you, what difference would it make? Depending on what you found out, it might give you some warm, fuzzy feelings, or it might make you feel like an orphan, but would YOU be any different? Would you understand the emotions and reactions coming up in you any better? Nope.

Dobro, your later arrival is the differential spice here :) It`s so good when somebody new comes to the party!! Thanks.

You're so right!!! By asking Yi about her feelings, I was hiding what really needs to be understood and worked out: my own attitude, the only thing that can be controlled. The wrong pattern is exactly my lack of patience!! Coincidentally I started to try to control my expressions in the past few days. And based on the help of all of you here, I also started to allow some distance in the day by day relationship. It all seems to be working.

I tell friends here "amplify perspectives etc." and I wasn't doing it myself. You showed me this and it seems easier now. :)

Yeah, it's a matter of habit not letting or go. And it's up to us to put things in their right place and adjust the replies proper and maturely.

Thanks again and all the very best.
:)
 

dobro p

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Ah okay, I like the sound of 'differential spice'. I think it might be a new job description. :)
 

ginnie

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The person vs. the pattern

Sometimes when people who live together are conflicted on the level of ideas, values, words and gestures, they can meet and agree through some other medium, like listening to music, their wacky sense of humor, baking cookies together, whatever works.

Your mom is not her personality. We are all larger than our irritating patterns of behavior. Usually there exists a bridge between people.
 

mary f

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kdedeaux4
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Hi Mary,
I'm usually asking you for help because I never trust my own ability to interpret, but my first thought looking over your responses, was the question of trust. Are there any underlying trust issues at work here between you two?
The other thought that came to me was the transition of relationships, as in child moving to adult, mother moving to child. That's of course a drastic example, but hopefully it makes at least a bit of sense...? Those transitions are difficult for everyone, as we often try to keep the relationship in one place, when in reality those "positions" within the relationship are shifting all the time. Anyway, through these subtle (or not so subtle) changes, in themselves, a trust issue can occur; as in neither feel altogether secure in their position as a manner of how to relate to each other within the relationship.

Just some thoughts that came to mind as I looked at your questions and their
responses...
I can sympathize with your frustration here.
Blessings to you

Yes Kdd, I think there is some problem with trust. I can't explain very well. Perhaps it would be me never trusting her as a supporting parent (her material and emotional weakness) and she not trusting me as someone who'll take good care of her. This change of roles really bothers me deeply, but I don't see an exit. In this case I don't see positions switching, just remaining me as mother and she as a daughter.
I analyzed your description and it seems very good and helpful to comprehend it better.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
:)
 

mary f

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barbra
The person vs. the pattern
Sometimes when people who live together are conflicted on the level of ideas, values, words and gestures, they can meet and agree through some other medium, like listening to music, their wacky sense of humor, baking cookies together, whatever works.
Your mom is not her personality. We are all larger than our irritating patterns of behavior. Usually there exists a bridge between people.

You know, we have our nice moments. I'm glad we are larger than our behavior. :D
Thank you so much for reminding that.
Take care.
;)
 

mary f

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Dobro
Ah okay, I like the sound of 'differential spice'. I think it might be a new job description. :)


LOL.
Now you see all that can come out of a mind that does not think in English.
:)
 

mary f

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Dobro
Ah okay, I like the sound of 'differential spice'. I think it might be a new job description. :)


LOL.
Now you see all advantages to dialogue with a mind that does not think in English.
:)
 

dobro p

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Okay, gotta get up to speed on this one, to see how readings compare.

I asked: "What do I need to know about my strong reactions?"
Answer: 5.3 >> 60 (this is not so confusing, seems to tell me to be patient)

Wait, and limit. Yeah, patience fits that.


Then: "How does she feel about me?"
Answer: 49.3 >> 17 :confused::confused::confused:

Throwing off the skin that follows; but I'm never any good at reading the feelings in a situation via the Yi. You'll have to do that. But if she IS throwing off the skin of feelings, then it's probably to do with both your feelings or hers. I don't see why it would apply to only one of the parties in this situation.

Confused I asked again, this time specifically about her love for me.
Answer: 40.1.2 >> 51 :confused::confused::confused::confused:

No, I really don't read feelings well in Yitalk lol.

Okay, now let's see what the others said.
 

mary f

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Hey Dobro thanks!!
We are really in a moment that we are throwing off the skin.
This thread and all of you helped me a lot.
:)
 

ginnie

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Asking about what other people feel

It seems to me Mary's mom is adapting to the situation, even though at times she feels she wants to rebel. That is because of the hex 17 as the second hexagram.

About the love Mary's mom feels for her, it is a centered and straight path, the correct path (capturing the yellow arrow). I think the 51 means both getting into action and getting bogged down in feelings. Sometimes when Mary's mother looks down and depressed, she may be getting bogged down in her feelings, but the primary hex is 40, which represents forgiveness and line two moving means she will always re-balance herself and regain the middle way.

But that's all about Mary's mom. What about Mary?

5.3 = Waiting in the mud brings on opposition. There is an image of forward motion while waiting in the mud that brings on opposition. I think "mud" probably means a lot of slushy feelings and emotions.

The nuclear hexagram is 38, The Estranged, Opposites. Well, it is obvious that they get on each other's nerves, since they disagree in their value systems. They are two very different people. Yet, is it not true that very different people often find themselves together in families? Isn't this the usual situation? So what are we to do?

Using Karcher's inner and outer operators, the Inner Operator is hex 9 and the outer operator is hex 15. That means in the inner environment, exercise restraint and try to refine the outer aspects of the situation, since there is not much that can be done about it in terms of acting on it directly. In terms of action on the outer field, it means to be more moderate and hex 15-ish. What does that mean?

It would be a good idea to read the complete text of hexagram 15 in a good translation, because it does not correspond to our ideas of Humility. It is not self-abnegation and miserable sacrifice. It means decreasing what is too much and building up what is too little. It might provide a lot of food for thought, because we do not have a concept like hex 15 here in the West. So there might be a bit of a learning curve here . . .

As we come to understand hex 15 a little bit at a time, then hexagram 60 becomes clearer, too. Hexagram 60 does not exactly mean "patience" or "self-control." It means acknowledging the natural limits of things, not exceeding the boundaries. For example, in tall stalks of bamboo, each section is marked off by a node and all the sections are divided in this way from one another. In all of nature is found the concept of these natural barriers. We call them "limitations," but they are really much more natural divisions, like we wouldn't expect summer to be winter, or winter to be summer. There is nothing forced or oppressive about this.
 

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