Multiple Lines

[dobro p]

They simply find their optimum line of focus within the much bigger context.

Like sex, you mean?

 

[bradford]

Like sex, you mean?

How can you even think about that at a time like this?

 

[dobro p]

Hey, *you* were the one talking about climbing mountains and surfing. Put 'em together and whaddaya get? Something big and wet, right?

Obvious, if you ask me.

 

[bradford]

Hey, *you* were the one talking about climbing mountains and surfing. Put 'em together and whaddaya get? Something big and wet, right?
Obvious, if you ask me.

I wouldn't have connected big and wet. I like em little and wet.
I would have guessed either: a) because drugs and rock and roll had already come up,
or else b) you were trying to bait Luis the Sparrowhawk into joining the conversation.

 

[bruce_g]

After reading your descriptions, maybe I'm not too sorry to have missed the acid trip era....

It's interesting what you say about 55, even if I can't entirely relate to the context. My experience with 55 has been with coming closer to the larger power--the flow of the river of the tao. I find sometimes that the information given to me by the Yi Jing is so overwhelming that I break my right arm.... But still I welcome 55. I'm hoping to learn how to ride it.

Miakoda

I very much enjoy reading your comments.

(To use a modified Chris-ism) This type of context represents an exaggerated form of a hexagram's meaning, from which reduced localisms can be identified; the way the sun is an exaggerated form of a burning match.

Not everyone takes to this way of dealing with hexagrams, just as not everyone takes to transitional hexagrams. I take great pleasure in indulging the first, while the latter doesn't work well for me. I work better with fewer dots to connect, but I like very big dots. Sophomoric, one could say. Whatever works for the individual.

 

[dobro p]

I like em little and wet.

Yeah, whatever. Maybe Luis is similar. Anyway, wet suggests physicality to me, and big suggests state of mind. Put 'em together, and you've either got mindfulness of the body or sex. Take your pick.

 

[hollis]

I think it is a great question, not silly at all, and an important question......i.e

is it better/appropriate/helpful to attempt to make things happen the way we want, OR can we simply oversee our intention and allow it to happen?

I feel the Yi is saying yes to the latter.

19.2 you and Yi are looking at this together...good question
24.3 this is a lesson you have been repeatedly faced with...(aren't we all?)
36.4 the heart of the darkness is believing we need to control, rather than oversee
55 ...abundance and true understanding result from

in general, 19 > 55 is a resounding affirmative to your question. BE the result you want ( stongly unite with your intention in overseeing this) , DO only what you feel moved to do -19.4, no reckless moves -19.3, and HAVE the desired result/fruition 55

what a beautiful way of reading. really spoke to me.

 

[mudpie]

Like sex, you mean?

my god, we could be talking about ummm, buying shoes... or, ummm, cooking chili?...and some guy in the crowd is sure to say
"like sex, you mean?"

MEN! that subject never fails to be a 55 for them, even when they are too old to do much about it. yuck yuck

Bruce, what a cool cool story about the gig. ROFL

 

[Sparhawk]

I wouldn't have connected big and wet. I like em little and wet.

And with cute toes, I'm sure...

Like Michael Corleone dixit: "Just when I thought that I was out they pull me back in. ..."

Hey, I was minding my own business elsewhere and, like a bad spirit, I was summoned to scatter mischief around...

L

 

[Sparhawk]

Yeah, whatever. Maybe Luis is similar. Anyway, wet suggests physicality to me, and big suggests state of mind.

Let's not go down that road...

L

 

[dobro p]

my god, we could be talking about ummm, buying shoes... or, ummm, cooking chili?...and some guy in the crowd is sure to say
"like sex, you mean?"

MEN! that subject never fails to be a 55 for them, even when they are too old to do much about it. yuck yuck

Bruce, what a cool cool story about the gig. ROFL

Well, this thread is called 'Multiple Lines'. I mean somebody else would have thought we were talking about snorting coke or something. Sex is a pretty healthy pursuit compared to that. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. In the meantime, Mercury - whatcha think?

 

[dobro p]

Anyway, since I've been in this thread I've been thinking about transitional hexes a bit. Right now, I'm thinking that for me, I might use them if I can't get any insight out of the simple 'main hex/relating hex' analysis/intuition. I mean, sometimes I look and look and mull and mull something I get, and it's still not very clear. In those cases, I just let it go and tell myself: "You're not ready to see it yet." But next time that happens, I'll try looking at the transitional hexes as a way to get through or past my blinkers.

 

[mercury]

Sexsexsexsexsex -- oh, sorry Dobro. You were asking something about multiple lines?

Well, thinking of 55 in terms of sex really does give me an insight into how to think of it...and since it naturally is part of the reason for this whole line of questioning in the first goddamn place, it only seems fitting.

as to the transitionals, they do seem to make sense to me...at times they're uncanny, but perhaps I'm seeing what I want to see.

 

[dobro p]

Sexsexsexsexsex -- oh, sorry Dobro. You were asking something about multiple lines?

Well, thinking of 55 in terms of sex really does give me an insight into how to think of it...and since it naturally is part of the reason for this whole line of questioning in the first goddamn place, it only seems fitting.

as to the transitionals, they do seem to make sense to me...at times they're uncanny, but perhaps I'm seeing what I want to see.

Well, if the transitionals work for you, then use them, by all means.

As for the sex, use that too. The only reason I brought it up was because of something between Bradford and me, but we're grown men, so it's okay.

But the reason I wanted you to weigh in was to see what you thought about what I thought about the main thrust (there we go again) of your question in the first post, when you asked the Yi about whether you should leave things up to fate. I thought that because you drew Hex 19, that meant you were supposed to pick up the reins and guide the horse where you decided it should go, rather than letting the horse take you where *it* wanted to go. If you catch my drift. Whatcha think? If you can get your mind off the nooknooks for a minute, I mean.

 

[mercury]

Hey Dobro. You know, I'm pretty perplexed, to tell you the truth. I had been interpreting 19 literally as something moving toward me, more like "fate" -- but I guess it's just as much about seeing what lies ahead and moving toward it -- if it's in accordance with the time.

But that's not the same as moving toward it because it's what you want, is it? There's the rub. To me, that seems to be the difference between letting fate guide you and taking definite action to move toward a goal of your choosing. Believe me, I'd love to grab those reins and charge full speed ahead, but even without the Yi I can see that this is not the time for that in this particular situation.

 

[mercury]

Me again. If anyone's still paying attention to this, I asked Yi for a picture of this particular situation. I got 43.5.6 > 14. Given the previous 19 discussion, anyone have any particular thoughts beyond the obvious "you've gotta make a choice", which is all I can see?

 

[bruce_g]

I had been interpreting 19 literally as something moving toward me, more like "fate" -- but I guess it's just as much about seeing what lies ahead and moving toward it -- if it's in accordance with the time.

But that's not the same as moving toward it because it's what you want, is it? There's the rub. To me, that seems to be the difference between letting fate guide you and taking definite action to move toward a goal of your choosing. Believe me, I'd love to grab those reins and charge full speed ahead, but even without the Yi I can see that this is not the time for that in this particular situation.

Sounds like a clear overview, which guides your fate.

 

[jesed]

Hi mercury

Jusnt in case the comment could be useful

43 is a time for resolute action. Started in Heaven (between May 1st and June 16, 2006) and would end in Lake (between March 17 and April 30, 2007).

So, this is something that has root in the past, and the oportunity to take resolute action is almost ending by now.
The Judgment says you need to take resolute action (like announcing some plot in the King's court); but since you need to be aware of danger, you won't act only by force, but with propper preparation.
The Image advice you not to remain in rest, but take action.

The lines give you a serious advice: there is a time to take action (line 5), if you miss it, how can you achieve anything? (line 6)

Maybe the image of Katrina would be useful. When you can see that water would brake the levees, if you take action, everything ends well, otherwise disaster.

Best wishes

 

[bruce_g]

As for sex, any and all hexagrams may apply. YMMV

 

[mercury]

Thanks Jesed...it confuses me a little because the situation is such that I'm having trouble separating what I WANT from what would be BEST, and yi is probably talking about what would be best.

Taking action to move toward my desire could involve risk and continuing emotional entanglement in a situation that has already been stagnant and painful for some time. I'd love to be able to act to affect it in a positive way. Thus far, I haven't been able to think of how to do that. Unfortunately, I think there's just too much information that I'm not privy to in this scenario.

I am VERY intrigued by the time element you mention but can't imagine as of yet what the dates could mean, other than someone being hit by a car or deciding to move to Nepal at the end of the month, or something outlandish like that. Could it be as simple as someone's feelings or attitude changing? I'm never sure what to think when presented by stuff like this, as far as the oracle goes. I'd love to hear more.


I've been interpreting that 43.5 as actively choosing to give up on this goal and move in another direction to improve my life.

 

[mercury]

Sounds like a clear overview, which guides your fate.

Bruce, maybe...I wonder, after reading this, if it's not as clear as I've been thinking -- that is, if I'm being timid or not open enough to the idea that there's a way that the outcome COULD be positive. I've been concentrating on the possible negative consequences, maybe I've brainwashed myself a bit?

I don't want my fate to be guided by my limited imagination.

 

[Tohpol]

See - that sounds a lot wiser, and less cranky too!
In the first place, I have never once heard this method touted as an ultimate solution to the problem of multiple lines - only as something to try in addition to reading all the changing Yao Ci (line texts) in the Ben Gua (original hexagram). This is only one of many methods (that include even the Yilin, with a separate text for every possibility). And at least the Ben and Zhi Gua are the same as with other methods.
It really doesn't make many assumptions, and it only uses concepts that were around from the beginning (Early Zhou through the Zuozhuan texts). It doesn't draw upon anything that makes its first appearance in the Yinyang Jia (yinyang school), the Ten Wings, the Han Yiweishu (apocrypha) or the Xiangshu Jia (Image and Number School.
It makes only these assumptions:
1) That change happens from bottom to top, from zhen to hui, the same way that hexagrams progress in their construction and in the evolution of their analogies. But certainly the hexagram with all its changing lines may change in only a moment - the steps may be taken all at once. Then again, the change may only be in the direction of the Zhi Gua, but never go all the way. It might only be referring to the finger and not the moon.
2) That the changing line texts were written to represent the simple change of that particular line, that changes the original into a hexagram that is only one line apart. It is here, along this simple track, that the line text is most meaningful and most easily understood.
3) That multiple lines will usually introduce a high degree of ambivalence and ambiguity into the reading, and the conflicting meanings fight each other for dominance on the way to resolution. Transitional hexagrams avoid this problem entirely and yet get to the same outcome.

I must admit I've found the transitional hexagrams a very useful and enriching part of the reading. It can give a much needed dimension.

Anything that serves to improve the information and knowledge that the IC is giving us has to be a good thing. It doesn't muddle the answer for me, it invariably makes it clearer.

Brad's explanation above confirms that to me and I'll be sticking with them.

topal

 

[mudpie]

what is YMMV?

 

[bruce_g]

Bruce, maybe...I wonder, after reading this, if it's not as clear as I've been thinking -- that is, if I'm being timid or not open enough to the idea that there's a way that the outcome COULD be positive. I've been concentrating on the possible negative consequences, maybe I've brainwashed myself a bit?

I don't want my fate to be guided by my limited imagination.

Not sure what to tell you, Merc. Imagination has been behind every invention known to man, from spears to space craft. Every work of art, every inspiration, every cure for disease began with imagination; and that involves risk. Not every idea imagined has lead to the betterment of our species, that's true, but without imagination we'd still be living in trees and eating insects.

If we live in fear of our desires, how can we master them? If we fear our imagination, how can we hope to even begin to master our fate? Our fate then seems pretty obvious: we sit on a rock and wait for our inevitable death.

43 stands on convictions. If you arrive at the decision that your convictions are wrong, then the wrong is what needs to corrected. But if instead it is fear which paralyzes you, don’t blame your fate for that. I always ask myself two questions regarding such things: What is the worst that can happen, and what is the best? If I keep asking myself over and over what my fate demands, my power of decision will be crippled, and I will become full of self doubt and worry. That is not the fate I choose.

 

[bruce_g]

what is YMMV?

Your mileage may vary.

 

[mercury]

Hey Bruce, didn't mean to imply that imagination per se is limited -- anything but. Just realizing that in this particular situation I might not be casting a wide enough net for possibilities -- that my own imagination in this case might not be working hard enough.

I don't want to miss the silver lining behind the dark cloud, even when "common sense" is telling me to watch out for the lightning, you know?

 

[bruce_g]

Hey Bruce, didn't mean to imply that imagination per se is limited -- anything but. Just realizing that in this particular situation I might not be casting a wide enough net for possibilities -- that my own imagination in this case might not be working hard enough.

I don't want to miss the silver lining behind the dark cloud, even when "common sense" is telling me to watch out for the lightning, you know?

Yup, think I understand. Caution's a good thing. I don't have that window open now, but I think I read where Jesed said something about ‘the time for resolute action doesn’t last’. It’s your call, my friend. It’s your trip. This battle you’re fighting, we all fight to some degree. I think most people want to do what’s right, and most of us also want what’s not good for us, sometimes. Back and forth the dialogue goes, to and fro goes the way. My only point is that fate is something we have a responsibility to participate in (19.2), and not as mere robots.

 

[getojack]

This is a great thread. I'd like to comment on the whole idea of leaving ''something'' up to fate, and not merc's particular situation, which he/she is being very dodgy about what it is, exactly. Something about a relationship, right?

Anyway, it seems to me that either everything is fate or nothing is fate. Either you have control or you only seem to have control. It's the whole free will vs. determinism argument again.

So, my question to all you lovely people is: When I ask a question of the Yi and throw the coins, is my answer fate (pre-determined) or have I taken control of my fate by asking the question? Another way of putting the question might be: Is fate imposed from outside, or is it found within?

 

[jesed]

Hi getojack

Just in case the comment could be useful

I like more the traditional aproach:

a) The issue more close to the idea of "fate" is not studied with Yijing (Luck of Man), but with other branches of chinese metaphysics (Luck of Heaven). See the discussion about five arts.

b) Even there, what you study with the Luck of Heaven is not exactly the idea of fate. There are tendencies and influences present in the starting point of someone or something.. just that: so, it is true that there are "external" influences and that there are "internal" choices on how to handle the external influences.

c) About Yijing, what you can research with it are the tendencies and influences present in any given moment of a situation. Again, there you have "external" influences (aka Heaven and Earth; Time and Space), and "internal" choices on how to handle (aka Mankind; free will).

You see, related to free-will-vs-determinism, I find the Yi aproach (Heaven-Mankind-Earth-Chance interaction) more realistic and pragmatic:

There are things that you can't control (some determinated like Earth and Heaven, but some not predeterminated liKe Chance), and things that you can control. The most you can understand what you cann't control, the better you can adjust what you can control (your free will) to success.

Best wishes

 

[jesed]

Taking action to move toward my desire could involve risk and continuing emotional entanglement in a situation that has already been stagnant and painful for some time.
...
I've been interpreting that 43.5 as actively choosing to give up on this goal and move in another direction to improve my life.

Hi mercury

Just in case the comment could be useful

Take action is not necesarly "move toward your desire". Is to take the needed action (even if that action is to "move in another direction" to improve your life).

If you already know that the needed action is one... then put it in action. Waht you cann't do is to wait that the situation change without your decision (resolute-ness, as the name of hex 43 suggest)


Best wishes