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Multiple moving lines - a complex view

dobro p

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Reading the other thread elicited this idea.

Although I see no need for a 'resulting' hexagram arising out of changing lines in the 'primary' hexagram, let's see what happens if you *do* take that view.

Here's an example: 15.2.5.

The resulting hexagram would be 48. Modesty moves toward the Well.

Fair enough, but why not consider the two moving lines as each having their own resulting hexagrams? In this case, that would be 46 for 15.2, and 39 for 15.5. So, the overall picture would be '15 moves toward 48 via 46 and 39'.

And I suppose there would be people who would want it to be '15 moves toward 48 via 46.2 and 39.5'.

Or even more precisely: 'In the context of 15, 15.2 and 15.5 move toward 48 via 46.2 and 39.5.'

This has all been thought of before, right? But how many of you use this approach?

(As for me, I treat it as: '15.2 and 15.5'. It doesn't simplify anything, but it's so simple...)
 

jte

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Well, Dobro, speaking for myself, I think I'd use any of the methods you list - I would take my question and context into account to determine which way of interpreting "makes the most sense" as a relevant answer and go with that.

An example, I recently got 58.3.5.6 --> 14. Ordinarily, that reading would concern me a lot, because ordinarily I look at the individual meanings of the three moving lines. However, in the specific case, there really wasn't any "damage" to be worried about it, so I interpreted it more as "58 moving to 14" generally - so pretty positive.

I tend to look at moving lines more individually, but I seldom follow through all the way to looking at the fan yao or even the resulting hexes of the individual moving lines. Once in a while I do and sometimes thinking of the fan yao as a converse or opposite can be helpful - almost like what we call in training a non-example. (And gratitude goes out to the folks on this forum who made me aware of fan yao, which I had not been before coming here.)

MHO, interpretation is ultimately more about personal style than "rules".

- Jeff
 

dobro p

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"MHO, interpretation is ultimately more about personal style than "rules"."

So, two interpreters with completely different approaches - do you think they'd give the same person with the same divination a similar interpretation?

Cuz if the answer's 'no', then one or both of those interpreters had better be giving a faulty reading.
 
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cheiron

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Hi Dobro

I agree with Jeff? there is no cognitive reason why any of those methods should or should not work.

I am unable to give it much thought during the week? but will play with them ? thanks.

There are two ways I like for deciding whether or not a method works for me? as Jeff says? work with it and see how it fits? but before that I often ask the Yi!

I am doing quite a bit of work around multiple moving lines at the moment? trying to settle on what works for me? I shall enjoy trying out your ideas.

Cheers

--Kevin
 

jte

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"So, two interpreters with completely different approaches - do you think they'd give the same person with the same divination a similar interpretation?"

Good question and I'm certainly not 100% sure of the answer. Clearly two diviners who stick with different approaches will have different interpretations of the same reading. This implies that in a yes/no/black/white case one of them would be wrong. However, in practice many questions are shades of gray and even my black/white questions often get shades of gray answers: e.g. I asked whether Schwarzenegger would be elected in California and received 8.1.6. When I followed up with a "Yes, but will *he* *win* question, I got 6 with both line 2 and 5 moving (and 2 other moving lines, but I don't remember what they were and didn't record the answer). To me, that was enough of a hint that I wasn't going to get the direct answer I wanted out of the question.

There are some interesting possibilities, though...

- Does the Yi change it's answer depending on who casts the coins? Depending on who will interpret (regardless of who casts)?? If a person asks for a reading from Diviner B instead of Diviner A, does he/she get a different reading on the same question?

I definitely believe that the Yi adjusts to your personal interpretation style, but one has to wonder how far it goes. Does it answer regarding the same objective situation differently depending on who's asking?

Don't ask me, I don't know...

- Jeff
 

dobro p

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"Clearly two diviners who stick with different approaches will have different interpretations of the same reading."

I don't think that's clear at all. I think it's entirely likely that people with two different approaches will come up with similar results - if they're effective interpreters, that is.

"{Does the Yi change it's answer depending on who casts the coins?"

Yes. For one thing, the Yi seems not to work for some people.

"Depending on who will interpret (regardless of who casts)??"

Yes. I believe this, anyway. My view is that the intelligence that comes through the Yi is living and dynamic and immediately responsive to every element of a consultation.

"If a person asks for a reading from Diviner B instead of Diviner A, does he/she get a different reading on the same question?"

That's really close to the question I asked.

"I definitely believe that the Yi adjusts to your personal interpretation style, but one has to wonder how far it goes. Does it answer regarding the same objective situation differently depending on who's asking?"

Almost certainly. But see, I don't really think of the Yi as intelligent in itself. I think of the Yi as a more or less fixed set of 450 variables, which act as a very simple, rather clumsy instrument of communication between the conscious mind and an Intelligence which is far greater, more timeless, more *knowing*. That Intelligence is communicating all the time, but some of us like to use oracles. I also think that deep down, that Intelligence is us.

So, yeah of course, the Yi adapts to every change, every nuance, in a consultation - whether it's a change of question, of questioner, or of questioner's attitude. But again, I don't think it's the Yi that does this. The Yi's just a book. We talk about the Yi, for convenience' sake, as if it were answering our questions. It isn't. But there's an Intelligence that reveals itself in an oracle consultation, if it's the right person, the right question, the right time.

But, to return to my second question. I'm thinking that interpretation isn't so much about personal style (of course, individual style will differ - it has to - but that's not the central feature of divination) as it is about being a person who can access the meaning that comes through the Yi. Style's superficial; accessing meaning is essential. The Yi helps reveal inherent meaning, meaning which is already inherent in the situation, in us. That's why I think that if two interpreters had radically different interpretations of the same consultation, one or both of them *must* be mistaken.
 
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demitramn

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<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

That's why I think that if two interpreters had radically different interpretations of the same consultation, one or both of them *must* be mistaken.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>yet, if you were handling the "trunk" of Yi's response and i were handling it's "back leg" we'd seemingly be perceiving two different things though we were actually defining the same thing just from different angles

sometimes, we may sound like we were giving completely different interpretations, but if we are looking at the response from a very different position and angle, perhaps each of our responses could be valid and neither could actually be considered *mistaken*, if we were to take into consideration that one person may have been focusing on some aspect of the results that the other person either missed or thought unimportant

i've seen this sort of thing happen many times with other forms of divination so i don't think that it's a big stretch to imagine that it can happen with Yi interpretations as well. ultimately, the more information a querent receives to their question, the more overall understanding they come away with so that they can discover the overall significances as they relate to their own lives
 

jte

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"the intelligence that comes through the Yi is living and dynamic and immediately responsive to every element of a consultation."

Definitely agree except as to the "every" - that I'm not sure on...

"I also think that deep down, that Intelligence is us."

I differ in that I think it's something outside of us (or at least it CAN BE outside of us - perhaps it can be inside of us, too). A "spiritual intelligence" (or more than one) - if I accept that, how would I have any way of knowing what it/they are and aren't capable of?

"The Yi's just a book."

It is, yet clearly it's more than that, too, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. It might be nice to think that we're capable of *fully* understanding what it is and how it works, but I'm not so sure we can... (it would be wonderful to prove myself wrong on that one day).

"[The Yi]... act as a very simple, rather clumsy instrument of communication between the conscious mind and an Intelligence which is far greater..."

Yes, and I sometimes feel that it's "clumsy" too in terms of being imprecise. But perhaps it needs to be "clumsy" in order to do what it does. In the sense that the answers don't necessarily spell things out for you - they push you to interpret instead. Perhaps that is part of how it works...

- Jeff
 

dobro p

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Demitramn, Jeff: yeah, I'm comfortable with everything you're saying, even the differences.

Demitramn - have you ever heard the story of The Blind Men and the Elephant? What you're describing is an example of what that story illustrates. If consultation of the Yi is operating on that level, that it's operating on a less than useful level, I think - it's giving you details rather than a holistic view. It's holistic understanding of a situation we need, I think, and I believe that's what the Yi deals in. Less than that, and you're not using the oracle to its full capacity. It's like playing guitar and limiting yourself to plucking on only one of its strings.
 
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candid

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To me, interpreting a Yi reading is very similar to interpreting a dream. The key symbols are present, and it?s a matter of finding what those symbols mean at both the archetypal and local level. In interpretation, it is the archetype which points the way toward the local event. This is just the opposite of the dreamer?s perspective, which originates at the local level but utilizes the archetypal landscape to express the local event?s value. In this sense they are entirely related. One expands outward from the subjective view while the other reduces inward from the objective view. Where they meet is the valid interpretation.

Applying this to the relation of the primary and secondary hexagrams, they too meet in the middle. The secondary or relating hexagram is the interpreter?s view (larger picture) while the primary is the subject?s experience. The direction of movement is relative to the objective or subjective perspective. The interpreter comes at it from outward to inward while the questioner experiences it from inward to outward. Being the one who is both the experience and interpreter is more difficult because it requires shifting back and forth from one view to the other. Viewing the secondary hexagram as the big picture, or as the direction from outward toward inward, and viewing the primary hexagram as the subjective experience, which moves from center toward outward, is where the valid interpretation meets.

A mythological view of multiple change lines:

Good council isn?t always singular. There?s often more than one point that can be made. Multiple change lines allow for additional input.

A fun way of seeing this counseling session is as having more than one councilor, or in terms of myth, more than one god or goddess offering council or advise. This gives a place to the appearance of conflicting answers from the change lines. One god is paternal in approach, while another is maternal. Another is impartial, while yet another is as a brother, or a lover, or a grandfather.

Not very scientific but it can be dynamic.
 
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demitramn

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<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

...If consultation of the Yi is operating on that level, that it's operating on a less than useful level, I think - it's giving you details rather than a holistic view.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> Dobro, it's not Yi in this instance that lacks an holistic view of the "elephant", rather it is WE who interpret from differing vantage points, who more often than not, see and focus only on that which is relevant to us personally

Candid said, "Good council isn?t always singular. There?s often more than one point that can be made." which is precisely my point here as well. if an interpreter's point of view lacks Yi's holistic sense while interpreting, it is likely that their interpretation may be "missing" something in the translation. and so, someone else who is looking from a different angle at the sitution, vis-a-vis the Yi results, will see that "something else" clearly, and may be newly enlightened by what the original interpreter said that they didn't or can't see themselves

Demitra
 

dobro p

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"A mythological view of multiple change lines:

Good council isn?t always singular. There?s often more than one point that can be made. Multiple change lines allow for additional input.

A fun way of seeing this counseling session is as having more than one councilor, or in terms of myth, more than one god or goddess offering council or advise. This gives a place to the appearance of conflicting answers from the change lines. One god is paternal in approach, while another is maternal. Another is impartial, while yet another is as a brother, or a lover, or a grandfather.

Not very scientific but it can be dynamic."

Bingo! Exactamente! At least, I feel you expressed very nicely the way I see it lol. A state of mind can be complex, with different desires and emotions; a situation can be similarly complex; so why not a Yi reading?
 

dobro p

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"Dobro, it's not Yi in this instance that lacks an holistic view of the "elephant", rather it is WE who interpret from differing vantage points, who more often than not, see and focus only on that which is relevant to us personally"

Demitra, what you're trying to explain to me so carefully is exactly the point which the story of The Blind Men and the Elephant makes.
 
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cheiron

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Agreeing with much above.

Reading this and other recent threads it seems to me that once we move away from arguing the logic of this method or that method or other ?factual? things, then many of us have a remarkably similar experience of the Yi.

Perhaps it is the process and our relationship with that which is central.

--Kevin
 

jte

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"Perhaps it is the process and our relationship with that which is central."

I'm definitely with you on that, Kevin. Now has anyone out there actually examined, analyzed, recorded, and published their insights into the *process* of building a relationship with the Yi? What it required, what it means, what happens, and what are the results?

Perhaps a lot of folks (and I'd have to be one of them) haven't been seeing the forest for the trees...

- Jeff
 

malka

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"To me, interpreting a Yi reading is very similar to interpreting a dream."

This statement makes so much sense to me. Brings alot of clarity to my sense of Yi and my experience with it. Symbols. Archetypes. Possible multiple meanings pending my self awareness and ability to hear what's being shown to me.

I've wanted to believe talking with Yi is talking with G-d as an outside source, but dependent upon my inner truth to receive the message. Now ... this is giving me an opportunity to rethink that opinion. Perhaps Yi is just like a dream. Perhaps Yi is an alternative media for me to receive images about myself from myself (just like a dream.) In the end, it still comes down to my ability to receive those images, to work with my intuition, my inner knowing, to develop my capacity for personal truth, to drop the storylines and the ego, to release the "pain body" (The Power of Now) and be in pure present moment with what is actually happening!

"Perhaps it is the process and our relationship with that which is central."

Yes, Yi is a path for personal transformation and enlightenment. It's the PROCESS of working with Yi, not just the readings themselves, that brings this about.
 
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candid

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Malka,

I was with you right up until you said: "to drop the storylines and the ego, to release the "pain body"

Why on earth would you want to do that? The story lines are *your* story; and your ego, on a grander scale, your myth. Perhaps they aren't the core and essence of what you are, but they are the dynamics of life as expressed through you.
 

malka

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Candid... That's the Buddhist in me talking. The teaching I've learned in that tradition is to drop the story line and the ego, because these are a false identity we've created that is NOT the real self. The idea, as I understand it, is that we make up stories about who we are, what we're about, and we attach to these stories as though they were true. They are not.

Does this mean I'm not interested in the myth I live? Not at all. I am very interested. I want to continue to watch the patterns that I live, and patterns that I think. But I also believe I am not the patterns, the myth, the story, the archetype, nor the identity. Who I am is much, much more.

Why would I want to drop the dynamics of life as expressed through me? I suppose it's because I believe they are the source of my limitations. They make my world small. They disconnect me from my essence and core, and they disconnect me from the present moment.

Hmmm... I am not talking about eliminating that which makes me unique. (I'm not sure that would be possible, anyway.) I hope you know this. My journey is what is unique and yet still, I am journeying towards G-d, towards truth, and I do believe this requires dropping the stuff that gets in the way.
 

kevin

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Hmm, I've got a feeling that the storylines Malka reffers to are those which the ego constructs to protect and bolster itself and which cloud the clarity of the self.

And are the ones Candid refers to the mythical stories which are rooted in archetypes and collective wisdom which deal with the material of the unconscious?

Different ones?

Just a thought.

--Kevin
 
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candid

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They?re really the same construct we?re talking about; just two different views on what to do with it. One view seeks to annihilate the illusion, while the other seeks to more clearly animate the myth. One view is at war with construct/illusion, while the other seeks to work in cooperation with it. But they are both dealing with our construct rather our source. One religion is of the spirit (father god), while the other is of earth (mother goddess), which happens to be where we live.

Consider the art of the Tibetan mandala: An image of creation, finely constructed of sand (soft white stone that is ground and dyed). The construct takes weeks to create, and the monks which perform the creation train for at least two years to memorize the hundreds of symbols and learn the complex techniques needed to create the mandala. After this, the mandala is dismantled, and its remnants are poured into a local body of water, illustrating the impermanence of nature.

Once the point is reached where we recognize that our construct is not our essence, it then becomes our problem to decide what to do with the it. Buddha used no weapons against it. But he did succeed in mastering it. But first he had to experience it.
 

dobro p

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"That's the Buddhist in me talking. The teaching I've learned in that tradition is to drop the story line and the ego, because these are a false identity we've created that is NOT the real self."

One of the nicest things in Buddhism is its understanding of the structure of the mind, the deepest part of which is just pure consciousness - nothing else, no constructs, no afflicted emotions - just consciousness. My meditation experiences persuade me that this view is accurate. So, I don't see it as annihilating the illusion so much as seeing beyond/within the illusion to what you are at core, and then getting in touch with that core, cuz when you're manifesting that pure consciousness, the other stuff isn't present.

I like to think that what western psychology calls the unconcious mind fits into that picture as well. And whether you think of these deep layers of yourself as being you or something beyond you - it's all just different ways of thinking about it, I think.
 

kevin

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Hmmm...

Listening and learning

happy.gif


--Kevin
 

dobro p

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I'm just speculating about this Kevin - it's worth considering but I don't know if it's worth learning. Not exactly speculating about the mind being pure consciousness at some level though, cuz that's my experience.

There's another speculation here as well, which I haven't noticed elsewhere. Ordinary mind is ego mind, with its self-orientation and its emotions and afflictions and biases and OBSCURITY AND ILLUSION. Now, what's the unconscious or pre-conscious dimension of that? Conditioning and upbringing and automatic reflexes and reactions probably - the stuff psychotherapists help you come to terms with.

Okay, now we shift to the pure consciousness realm that Buddhism talks about as being the most essential dimension or level of mind. So, what's the pre-conscious dimension of pure consciousness? Dunno, but it's gotta be something *beyond* the merely personal. Call it what you like, or don't call it anything at all, but whatever it is, it's important, and getting in touch with it changes you and changes the people around you.

Fit this into your picture of oracle work, and the picture gets interesting.
 

malka

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So much to comment on here ... agree and disagree both ... and my new job is already pulling my attention, so may not focus on this fully until the weekend ... sooner if possible, sorry ... Malka
 

yly2pg1

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If you are suffering, think as if you were not suffering.
If you are happy, think as if you were not happy.
If you toss the coins, forget the oracle ...
 

kevin

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Yly2pg1

That is sublime.

Malka
I have my yarrow stalks crossed for you...
happy.gif


I am away now for nearly two weeks, but look forward to returning to this thread.

--Kevin
 

malka

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Dobro ... You say it very well for me, so well that I will take the moment to repeat and I hope others will take the time to read again:

"One of the nicest things in Buddhism is its understanding of the structure of the mind, the deepest part of which is just pure consciousness - nothing else, no constructs, no afflicted emotions - just consciousness. My meditation experiences persuade me that this view is accurate. So, I don't see it as annihilating the illusion so much as seeing beyond/within the illusion to what you are at core, and then getting in touch with that core, cuz when you're manifesting that pure consciousness, the other stuff isn't present."

Kevin ... Yes, "The storylines I refered to are those which the ego constructs to protect and bolster itself and which cloud the clarity of the self." Beautiful.

I believe that my job on this planet is to continuously deepen my capacity for self awareness, and to expand my ability to live in the present moment sans protective identities, defenses, and storylines that make the ego seem more important than the core of my essence which is really a spark of G-d. Perhaps the process of awarenss and being present does release the myth, does let go of the ego, but I do not see this as annihilation. I accept and honor the identity I've created for there is much creativity in it, and it is a product of my history that is real and has value. It's just that it's also not the whole story of me, and I do not wish to give it more authority or power than it's due. The real authority and power lives with my essence, my soul, the piece of me that is also of the divine.

Hope this is more clear. Thanks for the dialogue.

Blessings,
Malka
 

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