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Multiple moving lines - Part 2

ladyganesha

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Hi Pakua,
I would like it if you addressed what I said in my last post about the young man who lost his leg. Was it a good or bad thing? In everything we do, by choosing one way, we automatically close the doors on countless other ways.

What I am saying is that there is absolutely no course of action that is all positive. Life itself doesn't conform to a flat one dimensional paradigm.

But if you want to micro-manage life via the oracle, you might say something such as "if I buy the lottery ticket today at 12 pm, then will I win the lottery?" Do you really think that the IC's answer to this kind of question will be 100 percent accurate anytime you ask the IC such a question?
You may answer saying, "But MY question is not as profit-oriented as that!"

But anytime you are asking the IC to help you gain the advantage over nature, you are profiteering with the IC. It is the opposite of flowing with the TAO like water. You are seeking to mold the world to your desires, not seeking to mold yourself to the flow of nature.

I am not judging whether doing so is good or bad. Myself, I go back and forth with doing this.
Did you ever read the novel called THE TAO OF WALL STREET? It is a really well written novel about a man who uses the IC to win at the stock market, and does exceedingly well in doing so. But what happens to him is something I too have experienced using the IC for profit, or better said, using the IC to take advantage of natural law.

I have met many people who have a love/hate relationship with the IC due to this very thing. They want to keep control of their own life, but they want to give all their decisions over to the Sage. This is a contradiction of terms. If you want to have control of your life, then the IC is a fabulous course in the study of natural law, but you do the choosing and take gain and loss in stride. Gain will have a down side and loss will have an upside because THIS IS NATURAL LAW.

If you want the IC to tell you what to do, then you give up your precious free will: "lose the magic tortoise and look at me with droopy eyes"--I can't remember what hex/line this is, but it addresses this point well.
Lady
 

ladyganesha

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Hi Candid,
Your reply about Job and Jesus and Arjuna was very insightful to me. I practice using world mythology towards real life lessons in my ordinary life. I believe that each one of us is the 'everyday hero' and every superstar is simply an outer expression of an inner state that belongs to us all. We all have an inner pervert, an inner nerd, and an inner genius. I especially appreciate the books written by Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (now he is called OSHO)because he deals with this truth often. I didn't like his crazy movement, but his words are like precious pearls nonetheless.
Lady
 

kevin

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The man loosing a leg? - Let's face it - I bet he was not impressed at the time.

And then he may have felt disappointed - singled out for not being able to fight for his own...

Rejected as a cripple?

Then ended up in high office - Hell - Hassle and more hassle.

Was it a good thing?

Only he knew.

There is many a sailor who was swept off a boat in a storm only to be washed ashore and meet his true love.

Still grieved by his own - but I expect he knew the truth of his fortune.

I do not believe there is a general rule of good or bad? only the individual knows.

Or a Wise One? perhaps.
 

jte

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"But anytime you are asking the IC to help you gain the advantage over nature, you are profiteering with the IC. It is the opposite of flowing with the TAO like water. You are seeking to mold the world to your desires, not seeking to mold yourself to the flow of nature. "

While think I understand what you're saying, Lady, I'm not sure I agree that it's always true - why do you assume that the IC's answers always give you advantage over nature? Has that been your experience? Don't those answers sometimes (often?) help you go *with* the flow of events in a harmonious way, rather than gaining advantage?

I think there's a natural instinct for people to try to turn situations to their advantage. Following the IC's advice doesn't necessarily lead to you following your own inclinations - I think often its advice is more about doing the *right* thing than the most materially advantageous.

- Jeff
 

gene

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I read a book called, "The confessions of a Taoist (Dowist) on Wall Street. I think it might be the same book. A very, very interesting novel reflecting the dangers of relying too heavily on its advice, (and there is a lot more to it than that). The main character was named Sun Yi, named after the hexagrams 41 and 42 based on his actions as an infant. Those actions led his caretakers to believe that his life would consist of a time of prosperity and a time of poverty...which turned out to be the case. Haven't seen that book in years, but it was an excellent read. I rarely ever read novels, but that was an excellent one.

Gene
 

pakua

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Hi Ladyganesha,

"I would like it if you addressed what I said in my last post about the young man who lost his leg. Was it a good or bad thing? In everything we do, by choosing one way, we automatically close the doors on countless other ways."

From that perspective, and in the context of the story, it seems to me to be either unanswerable, or both good and bad, since every event hinges on what came before that event. Of course, we at the same time automatically open countless other doors, when we choose one way.

Speaking strictly from the physical perspective, and viewing a life as a whole, I perhaps could argue, it was bad, because a life with two legs is usually easier than with one, irregardless of what alms society gives to the unfortunate. Changing the story, who knows what would have happened with his life had he kept his leg - he might have gone to war, learned skills in the army, saved a thousand lives and been a great hero, honoured with a high position afterwards, served his country as a great leader, etc etc. Another story, losing his leg might have driven him to drink for 20 years, and then he's in some bar and meets the love of his life. Is that good or bad?

On the other hand, on the spiritual side, maybe it would have a great benefit to a person's soul to be handicapped. That's what some say. But nobody deliberately seeks that.

"But anytime you are asking the IC to help you gain the advantage over nature, you are profiteering with the IC. It is the opposite of flowing with the TAO like water"

Not if you're using it to try to find your Tao and flow with it. My purpose usually is to try to understand what is appropriate for the time, and how best to do it. I like to try to get "inside" and "underneath" the situation, and see the hidden forces operating. I marvel at that. I like to watch what happens and how it happens.

That being said, if I have a choice between doing this or that, and Yi says this will be successful and that will not, I probably will do this. Nobody wants to fail deliberately.
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The question at bottom is, do I want to flow with Tao in order to be successful, or because it's the best way to be and "success" will naturally follow. I would have to say it's mixed. I still have hopes and wishes, dreams and desires that I want to fulfill.

I've seen it argued that simply enquiring for the sake of self insight is manipulating or profiteering, if the ultimate goal is to better oneself or gain wisdom or become a superior person for the wrong reasons.

"Did you ever read the novel called THE TAO OF WALL STREET?"

No I haven't. I just did a search for it on Amazon with no luck. Do you remember the author? I'd be interested in reading it. It sounds like it might be one of those "be careful what you ask for" stories? Does he give tips on how to use IC on the stock market...
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"...there is absolutely no course of action that is all positive"

Of course. Eventually things change. And within each situation there will be positive and negative. But if you get a reading that's very positive, doesn't that mean that for the duration of the situation you were asking about, it will be positive?

So, back to my question. I think I want to go back to school. I ask Yi to see if that's my Tao. Let's go to extremes for the sake of
example. Either I get a yes, go ahead, everything is favourable, or I get a no, stop, wrong time, wrong place, wrong plan. It seems to me I get one or the other, not either. If Yi gives correct answers, and we know it does, how can they be contradictory? How can it be that any answer will do? Remember, we're being extreme here, so leave out all the "maybe" hexagrams and lines.
 

pakua

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Hi Gene,

"In multiple changing lines it is very, very important that we understand the meaning of the hexagram as a whole. "

Oh. Very good point. That explains some things for me. I focus too much on the line, and forget to get the depth in the whole hex, and the relationship between them.
 

ladyganesha

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Hi Gene,
YES!!! It was called CONFESSIONS OF A TAOIST ON WALLSTREET. Sorry if I mislead anyone with the wrong name. Do you remember the author's name?
Lady
 

gene

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Don't remember the author's name, sorry. And I haven't seen the book anywhere in years. I doubt it is still in print. Too bad, it is a wonderful book.

One of the irony's of the book was that he and his business partner often had very conflicting ideas about the meaning of answers they were getting, and had some serious arguments about which meanings were correct. It turned out oddly enough that both meanings were correct in their own way. You'd have to read the book, I can't explain. It was just a novel, it didn't give any information on how to read, just about how they interpreted their own readings, in relationship to the story as a whole.

If the book cannot be found at amazon.com or anywhere, I will give a little more details about the story.

Gene
 

pakua

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Hi Gene,

"We can ask the I Ching about our relationships, about our business plans, etc., etc., etc And there is nothing wrong with that, nothing at all, but unless we read the deeper meaning into it, we simply pass through life making a few less mistakes, but nevertheless ending life the same person as we started."

I was reading this old thread http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/755.html?1057755268

I was thinking of this in reference to this current thread. It seems to me that simply by making less mistakes, one is becoming more in tune with Tao, and simply by becoming more in tune with Tao, one changes their being. It says somewhere in IC "the greatest good is to make no mistakes" or "to do no harm" or something like that.

I found the book on amazon. It looks like there's a new paperback version. In addition, there's lots of second-hand copies, some for as little as .01 cent!!
 

heylise

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From Pakua?s post:
?Either I get a yes, go ahead, everything is favourable, or I get a no, stop, wrong time, wrong place, wrong plan. It seems to me I get one or the other, not either.?
I know you were exaggerating, but how come the answers *I* get are NEVER yes or no? But almost always ?either? (oh well, I am exaggerating too). Must be my own mental make-up, but that means that the yes and no are also in the mind of the receiver (I think). Occasionally finding out if it is yes or not is not really complicated, but usually I am puzzling for quite some time. If this, then .. or if that, then ..

And from Gene:
?very conflicting ideas about the meaning of answers they were getting, and had some serious arguments about which meanings were correct. It turned out oddly enough that both meanings were correct in their own way.?

Now that sounds familiar to me ..

LiSe
 

ladyganesha

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Hi Pakua,
Thank you for calling me on my 'hypothetical' reality. I think I should use my own life as an example. When I did readings about coming here to live with my 'tyrant' lover, I got several different readings, all of which were accurate. I got 42 and 14 which was true in terms of material benefits, but I also got 36, a prison, and 31 line 6 which I interpret as 'unrealistic hope'. Now when I ask "should I go now?", I get 31 line 2, telling me to wait.

I am sure that when I do go, I will get some negative answers as well as some positive ones from the IC, because my situation may be better off but there will be sacrifices too.
Lady
 

pakua

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Hi LiSe,

You must be asking complicated questions.

I'm a simple man with simple questions
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gene

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To be sure, I submit that even when only one line is changing we can run into what can be termed as contradictions, or at the very least, confusions. The following may serve as an example:

The question was once asked, in general terms, (for sake of argument), would it be in the bounds of proper conduct to send a card in a certain situation

The answer was 11:3.

Now, if we look at the meaning of the line in the Wilhelm/Baynes version, we almost immediately get the feeling the answer is no. This line generally indicates a setback. It indicates a difficult path ahead. And if we stop here, we might take no as the complete answer. But is it really no? Maybe, maybe not. Let?s take a deeper look. First of all, the meaning of the hexagram as a whole is very positive. Third lines however, as a rule, are not so positive, so once again we might think no. Let?s look deeper. In this hexagram, the third line is yang, and it is in a yang position. Therefore, the line is correct. The usual problem with the third line is that it is below heaven, and about to ascend into heaven. If this is not proper, it gets slapped down, and forced back into the earth. Here, however, heaven is below the earth and therefore supports it. The line above it, which it has a secondary relationship with, is yin, as are all the lines above it. These lines are receptive. Not only that, but the line has a connection with the sixth line which is yin, and in its proper place as well. The proper placing of lines in the Yi is yang below yin. Heaven supporting earth.

Now to complicate things further, or to explain further, take your pick, when the third line changes we receive the relating hexagram, approaching. I realize many don?t use the relating hexagram, and that is understandable, but a single changing line will normally have developed right into it a relationship with the hexagram it changes into. Approach is very positive in terms of answering this particular question. If we abandon Wilhelm/Baynes momentarily, and seek an answer from Stephen Karcher, we see something more positive. Karcher does note that there is hardship, however, this is all part of the overall plan to arrive at the final destination. And what does Karcher say that destination is? ?Going through the hardship will lead to the meal shared with spirits.? Before we think there is any contradiction between Wilhelm/Baynes and Karcher though, we can note that the former also states, ?as long as he remains inwardly superior to fate, fortune will not desert him.?

So what is the true answer? I think a lot depends on the intuition regarding such a situation.

Gene
 

yly2pg1

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Hi Gene,

The image of Hex11: The small is going, the great is coming.
At 11.3, it has approached the transition point where "the great is going, the small is coming".
The same happens in Hex12. At 12.3, the changing line is near the transition point where "the small is going, the great is coming".
Both 11.3 and 12.3 reflect the turning points from great to small and vice versa respectively.
The events during the period of turning point is sometimes confusing. Just like the weather in the transition period between Winter and Spring.

I find that Sam Reifler places a good focus in the interpretation of the changing lines
against the backgound meaning of the hexagram. I always find a consistent changing pattern in his interpretation throughout the changing lines in one hexagram.

Generally, changing line at 3 and 4 occupy "earth plane" between Heaven (5th/6th line) and Human plane (1st/2nd line). These areas at many hexagram always carry a meaning of gray area, ambiguity, uncertainty. Hence the strength auspicious hexagrams will be somewhat compromised here; on the other hand, the degree of bad influence of some other hexagrams will be somewhat relieved.
 

pakua

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Hi Ladyganesha,

"I got 42 and 14 which was true in terms of material benefits, but I also got 36, a prison, and 31 line 6 which I interpret as 'unrealistic hope'. "

I hadn't realized one could ask about relationships in separate categories ie material, emotional, etc. I had only ever asked about the whole thing in general. Reading this board, I'm learning one can ask anything!

If I may ask, is that in fact what you did - ask separately about each aspect, or is your statement above your interpretation after the fact, just to illustrate how a situation can have different aspects which are reflected in different answers?

My main interest in Yi is relationship, and I don't really understand how you can separate the Tao of a relationship into aspects or pieces.

I'm thinking this because, in one translation I have, by Guy Damian Knight, he calls 42 Spiritual Wealth, and 14 Wealth. If one's relationship has spiritual wealth, then surely there is something valuable going on in the whole realtionship, not just the material aspect. And in 14 doesn't it show some value in the spiritual side as well?

One paragraph he writes in 42 particularly struck me, after having read your other posts: "your primary responsibility is to be of help to others, to both the lowliest people and to leaders of society" and also "...you have a tremendous capacity to help and assist others who are not so well endowed with good qualities..." and "if you are willing to help and develop the potential of people who need such help, what you do will have excellent results. All your talents revolve around an ability for this kind of work"

At the same time, for 36 he says "you do hold the winning hand, but do not show it yet"

Keep in mind, I'm a novice, so pardon me if I'm off base.
 

pakua

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Also, I forgot to ask, "when I ask "should I go now?", I get 31 line 2,..."

Isn't it strange that you get 31, which is basically about attraction, rather than something like 33, or 12 or some other retreat type of hexagram?
 

ladyganesha

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Hi Pakua, all,
Thank you for sharing about 42 and 36; I am not familiar with the IC translation you use, but those comments were fascinating to me, and seem to apply to my situation well. In a sense I do feel that I have an 'upper hand' much like in a sado-masochistic relationship the victim is in control of the victimizer. That notion has kind of a well known psychological premise. To answer your question, yes, I did really get those answers when asking the IC about my relationship.

Forgive me if this post rattles on and on but there are so many points I want to comment about. First, about asking more than once about a relationship; I think I mentioned elsewhere that I often feel like my IC questions are like having a real conversation with the Sage.

Some people, using the message in hexagram 4 as a premise, think that they are not supposed to ask twice. I don't agree. Imagine if it were my own child asking "when are we going to go?" over and over again, the same question, then it would be right to answer once and ignore any more stupid questions that are just an attempt to manipulate me and communicate impatience. But, if a child asks me "where are we going?" and then "when?" and then "how?" and then "who?", this is the child's natural curiousity and it is good to share the new information. The Sage knows the difference and so do we.

When I get an answer from the Sage, I think about it. If it still doesn't make sense after I have really pondered and meditated, I will ask more refined questions to get more clarity. In this way, I feel like I have a living, breathing communication with the Sage. And I will also reiterate that I know very well that nothing is ever all black or all white, so asking more questions about the situation will help you to refine your perception of the situation and give you wider perspective of the big picture.

I also want to mention that the IC might be called a book about relationships. Even when it talks about possessions (14) every line is about relationships with others as they pertain to possesions. In other words, there is really no hexagram and line that is not about relationship!!! The IC commentaries we read are often inspired by Confucius who used the archetypal relationships between family members; father to eldest son/middle son/youngest son etc. to generate all possible scenarios in life. This existence we live is really just one big course in relationships.

That said, there are still certain specific hexagrams that are more about the development of intentional relationships than others are. In this light, whenever you are thinking about asking the IC about a relationship of personal desire versus one that exists 'accidentally' such as a co worker or family member, then there are certain premise 'rules' that you should always consider before you decide what your question to the oracle is going to be. For example: Half way; no more and no less. I like the way that Carol Anthony discusses this. If you are giving 75% and your lover is giving 25% in the relationship, then you are doing wrong and so is your lover. So ask yourself in the relationship; is the 50-50 rule being met in this case? If not, why are you asking anything else except about that issue and what to do about it? There is also a human inclination to always credit the amount that we ourself do over what the other person does. In other words, we always see our own contributions as bigger than the same effort done by the partner. But allowing for this margin of error, hex 41 line 1 is about the damage you do by giving or taking more than what is balanced for the situation.

So when we decide to ask the Sage's advice about a relationship, we should stop to consider the clear 'check list' that already exists within the founding principles of the IC. Some of these principles are in hexagrams 8, 13, 31, 32, 44, 53, and 54. I have to force myself to stop there because really EVERY hexagram is about relationships. But if we use the ones listed, we can immediately ask ourselves primary questions about the relationship before we ever even need to throw the coins. 8 is about whether we are strong enough to lead in the union or should we be the follower? (32 line 5 is also about this) Do we respect where this person is steering his/her life? Would we trust this person to steer our own life if we had to? 13 is also about this. 32 tells us about how a lasting relationship is formed; very slowly and organically. 44 and 54 have a lot to do with the half way and no more/no less idea.

To try to cut to the point I am making, if we consider the base line principles of the IChing, we can answer just about all of our questions about a relationship without using it as an oracle.

Nevertheless, I often am shocked when the IC gives me information that I did not myself perceive. For example, sometimes I get 17 line 4 which often means "others are being insincere with us" and I am shocked because I am too naive to see that fact myself. I usually doubt the IC until lo and behold! I discover the IC was dead on accurate.

Also notice that the relationship hexagrams are made of of lines that are mostly negative in their judgment. 31; about attraction, is on the whole negative! So is 44 and 54 give or take a few. One might conjecture that the IC has a very pessimistic view of intentional relationships and perhaps rightly so.

As for me personally, my ability to perceive correctly in relationships and to 'read' other people accurately is hampered by the fact that I come from an alcoholic family. Often dependents of alcoholics are not able to decide/perceive the true feelings of others because they were never sure of the feelings of their primary caregivers because the alcohol was always in the way of their true expression.

I think that the Sage 'knows' this debility in me and so, with compassion, helps me out by giving me hints about people that I wouldn't naturally perceive because of my lack of adequate inner resources to see for myself. In this sense, the Sage re-parents me and helps my inner child 'grow up'.

I could go on and on--it is such a big subject, but I think I will force myself to stop here.
Lady
 

pakua

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Hi Ladyganesha,

"it still doesn't make sense after I have really pondered and meditated, I will ask more refined questions to get more clarity"

I'm still at a loss as to how this is done. Perhaps it's because when I receive a reading, I tend to focus on how it feels as a whole, with the emphasis on the word "feels". Perhaps I haven't learned yet how to verbalise or intellectualize what the response means, and somehow I stay mostly at the feeling level. Or maybe I ask simpler questions.
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If I don't understand the answer, I leave it. If it's so unclear that I don't get anything, I figure that my mind is too hazy to think of better questions and it will just confuse things more. Then I kind of put it on the back burner and watch to see what happens.

"I also want to mention that the IC might be called a book about relationships."

That's how I see it - the politics of relationship, of human interaction.

"is the 50-50 rule being met in this case?"

In general I agree, but surely there might be long periods where this rule must be set aside? There might be several months or years where one person grows faster, where one person gets stuck, where one gets sick, etc. Then it's up to the other to give more for awhile.

"Nevertheless, I often am shocked when the IC gives me information that I did not myself perceive... helps me out by giving me hints about people that I wouldn't naturally perceive because of my lack of adequate inner resources to see for myself."

I am almost always enlightened by Yi regarding either myself, the other or the situation. Especially when I feel an emotional response or feeling. I think we have so many fears and illusions, we almost never know what's real. Most of the time I suppose it doesn't matter, but at important times it does. I have the hope, if we keep training ourselves using IC or some other practice, eventually we start to see reality more clearly. But maybe that's just another illusion - maybe I am what I am and only life experience has a teaching effect and I'll die only slightly less stupid than when I was born
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Once in a while when I get a reading I'll say yes, that's what it feels like, but usually not, especially when it's a difficult time.

"Also notice that the relationship hexagrams are made of of lines that are mostly negative in their judgment. ... One might conjecture that the IC has a very pessimistic view of intentional relationships and perhaps rightly so. "

And yet, it seems the hexagrams as a whole are positive. Perhaps when we receive a particular line, it's because we have some specific imbalance going on which needs to be addressed?

I don't see why it should be pessimistic - humans need to interact and have relationship. Isn't the essence of IC to describe the rules as to how this should be done, and if the rules are followed, there will be success.
 

ladyganesha

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Hi Pakua,
Perhaps you can offer up an example of what kind of question you asked and what the answer was. It is hard to talk in terms of hypotheticals.

On the other note, yes, people need to interact and have relationships, but it just seems to me that the IC likes family ties and arranged marriages far more than it likes relationships that are based on lust or personal inclination. The IC tends to favor relationships based tradition-ruled obligations with firmly established roles for everyone concerned.
Lady
 

ladyganesha

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Hi everyone,
On the subject of multiple moving lines, I haven't read the thread thoroughly. I didn't see whether you already considered the notion that each of the lines represents one 'department' of the whole question. For example, line one would be a 'service' position, two would be how the question involved relationship, three would be how the question related to ego/identity issues, line four would refer to the question in terms of advisors, mediation, influence of important people, five might pertain to the question in light of its opportunity for creative self expression and line six might be how it applies to one's personal spiritual dharma.

I often look at multiple moving lines in terms of time. The lowest changing line happens first, and so forth up to six. Like there are stages that the situation will pass through and then culminates in light of which hexagram it changes into.
Lady
 

heylise

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Love your descriptions, and agree completely with them.
When one sees a hexagram as a logical structure, or organic, then more moving lines are no problem at all. They are much easier to oversee, and contradictions simply apply to different aspects, so that too is no problem.

I have a page in my website about the line-places, so it seems more practical to give the address instead of giving my view here.

http://www.anton-heyboer.org\i_ching\structures\lines.htm

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mind and spirit active and yang, everything else calm and yin.

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LiSe
 

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