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Need a little advice about hex2.1

quale

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hey everyone. I'll try and keep this short. What does the first line of hex2 usually imply? does it mean that the situation will strengthen and take shape of its own accord, or that it will only get colder and colder as time progresses? also, what's the significance of the image of the ice? i asked the Yi about a situation I'm currently dealing with, and I'm not sure whether this answer was a good sign or a bad one...the way it's actually phrased is encouraging, but...i dunno...
i'd appreciate any help anyone could give.

Thanks!
 

bradford_h

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Hi Quale
The ice coming underfoot is a reference to Zhi Gua 24, Return, which is traditionally the sign of the 11th Moon and the winter solstice, the beginning of winter and the promise of three more months of it.
I'd say you are still at an early stage of your process, with some unfolding still to come. Patience.
 

quale

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thanks bradford. just one more question though. given the nature of hex2 I'd instictively think it would mean to wait for a while, letting things run their course...but I've been reading a few threads on this board, and a couple of people seem to think it's a 2.1 is an "act now" line. anyone have any thoughts on this?
 
J

jesed

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Hi Quale
Just in case the commentarie could be useful:

"Treading on hoarfrost, hard ice is arriving." (LiSe translation)

One of the practical meanings: You can notice now the signs about good or bad luck arriving in the future. If you want the result that is starting in the initial signs, go forward; if you don't want them, retreat now.

Best wishes
 
J

jesed

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Hi Quale

About "act now". I like the commentarie of LiSe about this:
"If you want to marry her, then go for it. But if you are not certain you want the solid ice, then now is the moment to save your ass. In both cases waiting a little bit too long can cause lots of suffering."

Best wishes
 

bradford_h

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Hi Quale
If you're going to act now, do it with the understanding that
"the journey of a thousand li begins from beneath the feet"
(Laozi 64, my trans). It all begins somewhere nearby.
 

quale

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whoa, sounds like I'm gonna have to make a committment here....either that or just back off altogether...is there anything important being said in 24? I don't really see how it ties in with the main hexagram
 

bradford_h

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Hi
IF you don't want to commit, zhi gua 24 and fan yao 24.1 suggest that you haven't wandered very far yet from the path to turn back to. IF you are leaving your proper course then delay will only make this more distant. But this is not saying that this isn't your proper path - only that it may take more of your time and energy than you previously thought. All of our decisions change our futures.
 
B

bruce

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This isn't much different, if at all, from what Brad or Jesed has said, but it's the picture that comes to mind.

Summer has passed and autumn is pending. You walk out your cabin door and onto the grass. You feel it crunch beneath your feet from first frost. You inhale deeply the cold air, and make a brief cloud as you exhale. You ask yourself, "shall I go back indoors and read a book by the fire, or shall I venture out to meet the winter?"

Bears hibernate and wolves hunt. Which time is it for you, an easy or challenging winter? It?s still the beginning, so you have a choice.
 

bradford_h

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Or do I bug out of the high Colorado mountains and go somewhere more sensible for winter, like Arizona. It's spozed to snow here tomorrow.
 

void

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I always remember getting this line when I asked about health prospects for someone close to me.

I knew death may be quite near but it could have been years or months.

I remember kind of intuiting this wan't a great answer in the circumstances. In fact I took it as death was not too far away. He did die shortly afterwards and getting that line stuck in my mind. I had never considered these other ways of looking at it like Brad and Lise have talked about. These are much more positive.

I think I always saw the ice coming as something undesirable, (why is ice chosen otherwise.) I guess thats what you all mean, ice as in something that is set and fixed, a condition that will arrive. I differ from you I think in the sense that I see it as condition or circumstance that you actually can't affect or change in anyway. Ice will come when it will come, it is inexorable, you can't command the weather.

You all see it more to do with a decision or choice. I don't see it like that because in my life its nearly always turned out as something beyond a choice, something fated. Hex 2 is about acceptance, maybe line one is about accepting an inevitable change to come, a natural change thats going to happen whether you like it or not (like the weather)

I must make it clear there is no way I would say this line indicates death when inquiring about a health matter. That was just my experience on one occasion.
 
B

bruce

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Brad, coffee's always on.

Void, good observation about near death. But even then, decisions to fight or yield comes to play. Or an alchemical balance of each.
 

bradford_h

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Thanks Bruce-
I've heard there's advantages to having friends in the Southwest. Forget them folks in the frigid Northeast.
 
B

bruce

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LOL

I'm quite serious though. This is northwest Arizona, not southern, but compared to the Rockies or northeast, the hoarfrost is cake. Never saw ice here, but snow powders the peaks.
 
M

micheline

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Frigid northeast? hmmmm, s'pose that would be new englandish territory....right now this part of the northeast is hot and humid, like an august night.
would be loving to see some sweet little snowflakes.

Void, i understand what you are saying because I also have looked a bit suspiciously at the ice as something undesirable...but I enjoy the broader viewpoint and feel now that this line can be read in different ways.

Rod and amy sorrell say about line 1 "the text advises analyzing the the situation very carefully. the subtle signs and indicators that you see now will become the dominant forces of the future"

the seeds are sown, something is looking to crystallize..some situation could be beginning to show red flags..but at this point, you can presumably still make a choice as to your own involvement..

IN the case of an illness, there MAY be no choice on the part of the sick person, it may likely get worse. BUt if the question was more like "Do I need antibiotics for this or is it just a cold? 2.1 says, it's gonna get worse, call the doc.

if you ask somehing like "should I go on a Bali vacation now?" 2.1 might be saying...yes, GO NOW or you may never have the chance/energy/motivation again.."

OR it could be saying.."things look bad over there and it may well get worse..maybe not the best time to follow this desire"

In general, I think the "frost turning to ice" is simply saying that the choice has gotta be timely
 

bradford_h

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Hi Micheline
We don't hear about the Sorrell's I Ching Made Easy very often. I liked that one a lot. Having forced myself to read everything in print on the Yi at least twice, I came to detest most of the simple interpretive books. But this one had some wisdom behind it. I like what you quoted for 02.1. A few other books had some good insights too - Acarti, Bonnershaw, Gill, Kaser, Barbara Walker and especially Nigel Richmond and Mondo Secter.
 

auriel

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2.1, in paralel to its ikonic image of winter, death, and the way of the earth, encapsulates the lovely double-entendre that 1)if one is aloof to one's yin partners in time of need, they will close or freeze-up, returning to other or internal stimulation; and 2) that as one needs access to sheltering yin in hard cold times, one had best prepare that access.

and still the progress of winter is inexorable, and all our progress constrained to the known (24).

this line links seemlessly from 1.6
 

void

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Hi Micheline, these new ways (for me) of seeing this line are interesting yet I still see it leaning towards something not so desirable.

Say for example you had just begun a relationship and the signs were good - hes showing much interest, hes thoughtful, affectionate etc etc.
Would you say if you asked what the prospects of the relationship were and you got this line you would think "soon its going to crystallise into something wonderful". Somehow I don't think I would, mainly because there are many other lines that could indicate this. I would take it as "things look good now but watch out its going to get colder" - who wants their love to turn to ice ? Melting is more an appropriate image for the process of falling in love than freezing isn't it ?

This has been a good thread for me though, certainly given a new perspective.

BTW weather here in the UK is unseasonably warm. Autumn never used to be like this even 15 years ago. By this time of year we would all be wrapped up warm but I saw a guy yesterday wearing shorts (not underwear shorts - summer shorts) Must be global warming ?

I don't usually go in for 'big' questions but its a question I might like to put to the Yi - "is this it, is it happening - global warming". I think most people believe its due to pollution but not everyone, since the earth does go through climate change anyway. I must stop rambling..........Now if I asked such a question and received hex 2, line 1 I would not know what to think. Would it mean yes what your're seeing is going to continue, or would it mean 'no theres an ice age coming'. Some do argue we should expect a mini ice age not warming at all.

Myself I always find the Yi can be suprisingly literal so I would focus on the word 'ice' as significant.
 

void

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I quite like Sorrells book though I would not rely on it entirely. I got Richmonds book years ago and don't use it. I'm afraid it makes little sense to me, I might revisit it though. Everyone here seems to value it highly.
 

hilary

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Steve Marshall in The Mandate of Heaven says that 'stepping on hoarfrost' is a poetic expression associated with marriage. And on 2.1:
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

"What this means is that by the time hoarfrost is underfoot one should be thinking about getting married, or the seasons will inevitably roll on and before one knows it there will be solid ice. By the time the ice has melted the traditional time for marriage will have been lost, the couple will not have had a winter shut up in their house together."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
What we make of the story in interpretation is another matter, of course. I suppose that by the time there is solid ice, you can be either inside the house or outside. Not deciding would still amount to a decision.
 

quale

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if it makes any difference to anyone's interpretation, i just realised I forgot to post the question. oops. it was simply: where do I stand in this situation? still, pretty much everything everyone's said seems to make sense
 
B

bruce

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This little piggy went to market
The other little piggy stayed home
The first little piggy met another
The second little piggy was alone
 

luz

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Lol! Are you saying all the "good little piggies" are to be found at the market!
happy.gif
 

quale

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i would have thought the good ones stay home and the bad ones go to the market.....
 

dobro p

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Brad - hi. About the 'cold' imagery of 2.1. In addition to what you pointed out about Hex 24 and it's seasonal chilliness, isn't one of the features of either yin or k'un the feature of coldness? Isn't yang hot, and yin cold? I've never seen any kind of theme running through the lines of Hex 2 (aside from the general idea of receptivity, I suppose; they each seem to image a different aspect of yin.)

Quale - for me, the coldness isn't a significant part of the meaning of 2.1. For me, it's just saying something like: "the indications you're seeing now are going to firm up into something very solid in the future. So be sure this is the path you want to tread."
 

bradford_h

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Hi Dobro-
It could be applied that way to interpretation, but that wouldn't explain why coldness shows up in the text. Yin and Yang weren't really part of the thinking of the Zhouyi authors. Yin only appears once in the Zhouyi, at 61.2, and Yang not at all. But Yin appears later in the Xiao Xiang commentary on line 02.1, written some time after Yin and Yang started to capture the Chinese imagination. Then it makes sense.
But the twelve moons and their association to the seasons do appear to have been around, suggested by the reference to the 8th moon in Gua 19. This may be enough to account for the suggestion of growing coldness in the move from the 10th month (Kun) to the 11th (Fu).
 

bradford_h

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Dobro-
An afterthought: The Shuo Gua (Wing commentary on the Trigrams) gives associations of Bing (ice) and Han (cold, wintery) for Qian (Heaven), not Kun (Earth). This contradicts the Yin-as-cold hypothesis, even though Shadow (Yin) is cooler than Sunlight (Yang). It does not correspondingly name warmth as a property of Kun - it only leaves this implied by such things as Cang (shelter), Mu, (mother) and Yang (nurture).
 
B

bruce

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I wonder if Bing (ice) is the origin of Bling (jewelry), in modern urban speak.
 

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