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Negative aspect of 'modesty'?

tealight

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It seems that 15 is usually considered as being virtuous etc, so I'd just like to know what could be its 'negative' aspect, or how its expression could be problematic (if this is even possible...?).

One interpretation I looked up, and which I find interesting, says:

15 Leveling, Even-Out
In a context of self-restraint we utilise trust-in-others.

A situation reflecting a need for decorum and so to 'cover up', to reduce the basics, avoid exaggerations of lows or highs.

Cooperative Format : In hexagram 15 we are at a moment where the use of 'acceptable' appearance is required despite our inner desires. This is a time for avoiding excess by keeping things 'grounded'; words to facts. This functions within the context of worth and beauty. (words + facts = value. words or facts alone are 'valueless'; they only serve as 'meaningless' ideals). By maintaining this relationship (a 'level' head) it acts as a gateway into the future.

Oppositional Format : Hexagram 15 reflects the total eradication of difference; the insistence of sameness and so 'perfect order' where the 'perfection' is what is highlighted.

Structural Relationship (Being) : Hexagram 15 is the opposite of hexagram 10, in that 15 reflects modesty as compared to conduct; leveling all as compared to leveling some/one; humbling as compared to reservedly 'pushing it'.​

http://www.emotionaliching.com/lofting/bx000100.html

Would love to hear your thoughts..
 
S

sooo

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Well, the sour side of 15 is that it may not be or feel like what you're inclined to be or want to be at the time.
 

tealight

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Well, the sour side of 15 is that it may not be or feel like what you're inclined to be or want to be at the time.
A false modesty, or insincerity. But just thinking if that was the case then would a different hexagram not have come up instead?

I guess what I'm looking for is possible 'alternative' meanings of 15. As in does it express a certain general tendency/trait etc, and that could in a certain context be viewed as non-virtuous? And maybe also besides what is understood or summarised as just 'modesty'.
I guess it's an open question that I'm not even fully sure what I'm asking and need to do some more thinking/reading about...

EDIT: ok, just realised that I misinterpreted what you were saying, sooo, as I was thinking more narrowly about it. This is actually a good point that I need to consider more....
 
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S

sooo

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I wasn't referring to a false sense of modesty but to an inclination or mood to amplify, exaggerate, brag or show off, in order to extend what is legitimate in order to make an impression. Let's face it, we all experience that temptation from time to time, a need or urge to prove ourselves through making a big impression, even if it's to ourselves, an ego boost. Wilhelm says:

Here an effect that it took a long time to achieve, but that in the end seems easy of accomplishment and self-evident, is used as the image of modesty.

Making something difficult look easy is admirable and authentic. Making something easy sound difficult would be the opposite.

So what I'm saying is, any time there's a temptation to appear bigger or better than we authentically are, 15 could be a bubble buster, a bitter pill to swallow.
 
S

sooo

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EDIT: ok, just realised that I misinterpreted what you were saying, sooo, as I was thinking more narrowly about it. This is actually a good point that I need to consider more....

Just noticed this. :bows:
 

bradford

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If you look at the picture of 15 relative to 16 you see the firm line behind and ahead of the "center of gravity." This suggests the difference between reticence and readiness. As much as 15 would like to be perfectly realistic, perfectly centered. it might find itself too conservative and miss the real excitement. It lacks the "soul of a poet." Sometimes the optimum approach to a situation requires a little exaggeration, a little bursting into song, a little getting ahead of ourselves or getting carried away. Even if this approach starts out as unrealistic, it is often the only way to get certain kinds of real things done.
 

jilt

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If you look at the picture of 15 relative to 16 you see the firm line behind and ahead of the "center of gravity." This suggests the difference between reticence and readiness. As much as 15 would like to be perfectly realistic, perfectly centered. it might find itself too conservative and miss the real excitement. It lacks the "soul of a poet." Sometimes the optimum approach to a situation requires a little exaggeration, a little bursting into song, a little getting ahead of ourselves or getting carried away. Even if this approach starts out as unrealistic, it is often the only way to get certain kinds of real things done.

I think epic would be a better term then poetic in the case of 15 and 16.
 

tealight

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If you look at the picture of 15 relative to 16 you see the firm line behind and ahead of the "center of gravity." This suggests the difference between reticence and readiness. As much as 15 would like to be perfectly realistic, perfectly centered. it might find itself too conservative and miss the real excitement. It lacks the "soul of a poet." Sometimes the optimum approach to a situation requires a little exaggeration, a little bursting into song, a little getting ahead of ourselves or getting carried away. Even if this approach starts out as unrealistic, it is often the only way to get certain kinds of real things done.
Thank you so much for this explanation! I don't know what else to say but this is exactly what I was looking for :) And I love how you link it in with the visual of the hexs.
 
S

sooo

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It really depends on the context of the question. If one asks, what can (or must) I change in order to be noticed or recognized? 15 could refer to the negative aspect of the hexagram. However, I think it's more likely to offer 16 in that case, which is a change toward the goal of recognition, rather than a change away from authenticity. I can't imagine authenticity itself being negative in any case.

I've also never associated 15 with reticence, nor with a deficit of a poet's soul. Quite contrarily, it's the truth and depth of a poet's soul that makes it stand apart from the superficial.

But I do find the balance of the single yang line to be an interesting differentiation between 15 and 16.
 

tealight

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It really depends on the context of the question. If one asks, what can (or must) I change in order to be noticed or recognized? 15 could refer to the negative aspect of the hexagram. However, I think it's more likely to offer 16 in that case, which is a change toward the goal of recognition, rather than a change away from authenticity. I can't imagine authenticity itself being negative in any case.
It's true that it depends on the context, and what you said earlier was equally valid sooo and I appreciated what you had to say because 15 has appeared quite a lot for me for some reason, though usually as the resulting hex, so what you said was helpful as a broader view of it.

How would you interpret it then if you did get 15 having asked such a question? i.e. asking a question to find out the negative aspect of something..

nor with a deficit of a poet's soul. Quite contrarily, it's the truth and depth of a poet's soul that makes it stand apart from the superficial.
I just took this to refer to something like being imaginative/adventurous etc, and noted that bradford put the phrase in quotation marks.
 

anemos

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Isn't it equally negative to overestimate your authenticity (being immodest) underestimating you authenticity ie. being too modest ?

I recall a reading here when a member was asking advice for an interview and got 22>15. If I recall correct he was not feeling very sure for his abilities and that reading , i think , suggested to show off.
 
S

sooo

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How would you interpret it then if you did get 15 having asked such a question? i.e. asking a question to find out the negative aspect of something..

I just took this to refer to something like being imaginative/adventurous etc, and noted that bradford put the phrase in quotation marks.

It's been my experience that the Yi is more likely to point toward the desired changed, rather than away from the undesirable tendency. However, if the contextual question specifically asked to be shown a fault or deficiency, 15 could indeed be a suitable answer, and a creative and poetic (or epic) way to arrive at 16 from 15 could include lines 3 and 4. Contextually, one does not automatically disqualify the other. One can be legitimately brilliant, creative, brave, and quite a show off.

ti405.jpg
 
S

sooo

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Isn't it equally negative to overestimate your authenticity (being immodest) underestimating you authenticity ie. being too modest ?

Sure, but that is not true 15, as noted in lines 3 and 4.

To clarify myself, I like Brad's 15/16 example, and who am I to say what Yi's answer should be? I just don't see 15 by itself (the 15 15, the real, authentic 15) being in any way negative. It corrects any ill-conceived interpretation of itself in it's lines.

There's nothing inherently timid, self-effacing, reticent or uncreative about 15. Rather, the skill is self evident.

I think of the great boxer Muhammad Ali during his prime, shouting to millions of viewers, "I AM THE GREATEST!", while it was perfectly true, he was the greatest. He was both, 15 and 16 in the truest sense.
 

anemos

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Sure, but that is not true 15, as noted in lines 3 and 4.
.

I was looking at the path leads from 15 to 16 and those lines are the one 15.3.4>16 ... its not that clear yet to me. My impression is that those line are connected with the :

Thus the superior man reduces that which is too much,
And augments that which is too little.

need to think more about it...



I think of the great boxer Muhammad Ali during his prime, shouting to millions of viewers, "I AM THE GREATEST!", while it was perfectly true, he was the greatest. He was both, 15 and 16 in the truest sense.

Thats how I see 15. To some might sound immodest but its authentic.
 

tealight

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sooo said:
It's been my experience that the Yi is more likely to point toward the desired changed, rather than away from the undesirable tendency.
Thanks. I guess that's really what I needed to know in relation to how to read a result like this. Probably sometimes I've been a bit too literal with my Q&A of the oracle, and maybe need to see it more as the answer being guidance or advice than a literal response to the the exact phrasing of the question.
 
S

sooo

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Thanks. I guess that's really what I needed to know in relation to how to read a result like this. Probably sometimes I've been a bit too literal with my Q&A of the oracle, and maybe need to see it more as the answer being guidance or advice than a literal response to the the exact phrasing of the question.

I personally see no fault in how you approached Yi or this subject. You have been open, inquisitive and thoughtful - all very 15.

Sometimes Yi's answers are so instantly recognizable and literal it's funny. Sometimes it requires time to chew on, and still not walk away with a crystal clear and certain answer. Real life is often messier than our wishes or ideals. Not every question has a simple black or white answer, but sometimes they are.

In general, for my personal use, I tend to agree with you, staying open to the answers as guidance. Hopefully we don't check our own brains in at the door when we enter the Book of Changes.
 

anemos

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If you look at the picture of 15 relative to 16 you see the firm line behind and ahead of the "center of gravity." This suggests the difference between reticence and readiness. As much as 15 would like to be perfectly realistic, perfectly centered. it might find itself too conservative and miss the real excitement. It lacks the "soul of a poet." Sometimes the optimum approach to a situation requires a little exaggeration, a little bursting into song, a little getting ahead of ourselves or getting carried away. Even if this approach starts out as unrealistic, it is often the only way to get certain kinds of real things done.

Does authenticity in the context of hex 15 means reliability?

"The superior man carries things through"
Does this indicates someone one can rely on him because he has a clear view of reality , has the ability to recognize what is too much or what is too little and bring the things in the right level ? maybe free of false beliefs or illusions ?

is someone who has no problem to say "i can do it" and also "i can not do it" , hence someone you can trust ?

this 15 view sounds like a flat person while in my mind , thinking of authentic people, flatness is not a trait i would imagine. Seems that this 15 person is attuned to reality and doesn't derives while the 16 person is attuned to something else.
 

rodaki

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. . if I may interject for a short while, I've been finding the discussion interesting, but I think seeing hexagrams as opposite or strictly segregated is not all there is there . .
I wrote a long-ish post yesterday -which then decided not to post- but I was concluding it by seeing 15 and 16 as a pair of feet together creating walking (one foot standing/one moving), and even, as a pair of movements making up each single step: touching base/on air/base/on air . . :bows:
 

Trojina

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its been pointed out somewhere that hexagram 15 is the only hexagram with no 'negative' changing lines
 

arabella

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Well, the sour side of 15 is that it may not be or feel like what you're inclined to be or want to be at the time.

This is my experience precisely. And this has come up mostly in reference to a casting where I'm hoping for something on the "daring" side or I'm enquiring on a romantic situation where something a bit more passionate is the desirable response. And here comes hexagram 15 to say that you're out with a guy who is well-under the social speed limit and isn't likely to say anything frivolous or try out anything untoward -- when you're really hoping for a bit of untoward and frivolous. Difficult to get the heart racing over THAT scenario. But that's not the YI -- that's my social life!:rofl:

All in all, Hexagram 15 has reflected such stability in situations I've cast for, which is generally comforting. On anything longterm it gives a good solid feeling. Hard to come up with a "negative" to that.
 

anemos

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. And here comes hexagram 15 to say that you're out with a guy who is well-under the social speed limit and isn't likely to say anything frivolous or try out anything untoward -- when you're really hoping for a bit of untoward and frivolous. Difficult to get the heart racing over THAT scenario. But that's not the YI -- that's my social life!:rofl:

All in all, Hexagram 15 has reflected such stability in situations I've cast for, which is generally comforting. On anything longterm it gives a good solid feeling. Hard to come up with a "negative" to that.

:eek: and that is not negative ???? !!!!that neither hot-nor cold thing :eek:
:rofl:
 
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arabella

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:eek: and that is not negative ???? !!!!that neither hot-nor cold thing :eek:
:rofl:

OH YES! Quite definitely! That IS the negative part for sure! What a wash-out, a total disappointment. Because you're looking for the tango with Antonio Banderas on the wild side of Buenos Aires, but instead you go out on mainstreet-wherever, and talk about the life cycle of the tsetse fly or something with soothing music in the background and your man being sure they added the bill correctly. Spontaneity is not their best gear.

HOWEVER the flip side of this is that these very same guys are most often reliable and stable, get there on time, take you nice places and would be horrified at the thought of going "dutch." They seem to be great providers and daddies and terrific "family men," highly moral and fair. [Not to say that this is all there is to men of course, nor the only "positive" attributes men may have.]

So, in my experience, [and you can tell I have a crap social life] this reliability, morality and manners comes with the Hexagram 15 price -- you are going to find it boring sometimes -- and THAT is the negative. No tango, but you probably won't end your days holding the fuzzy end of the lollipop either.
 
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anemos

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So, in my experience, [and you can tell I have a crap social life] this reliability, morality and manners comes with the Hexagram 15 price -- you are going to find it boring sometimes -- and THAT is the negative. No tango, but you probably won't end your days holding the fuzzy end of the lollipop either.

:)
 

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