Not welcome at home? 33.1.3 and 25

[elizabeth]

I have a rather complex situation on my hands, so I will give the background first, as it will help you give context to the question I asked the Yi.

I'm living in a foreign land, and I return to my parents' home each year over the holidays. Since my move, my mother has refused to allow me to stay in their large, empty house for more than 2 weeks at a time. I am quiet as a mouse, do not play loud music or keep odd hours. I"ve always been the dutiful daughter. My mother is rather controlling. Friends, family are shocked at her behavior. I am too, but I cannot change it. I would, however, like to know what is going on with her.

This year, I will be staying more than 3 weeks in my native country -- first for vacation and then staying on to work remotely by my own decision, and finally attending an offsite business meeting. (rather than flying back and forth, I'm staying there in between vacation and the meeting). My mother however will not let me stay in their (my father complies) big empty house while I"m there, so I will have to pay rent in my old place, and find a hotel for a month. (yes i've already put out feelers for sublets and housesitting arrangements but nothing has come up)

My question -- and one that has irked me for 3 yrs now -- is what causes my mother to act this way. That she wants to have some control over me is apparent, but throughout the year she asks about when I'm moving home. When I come to visit, I get less than a warm welcome. I no longer 'expect' that I have any right to stay with them, ever. This year, I will be staying with them for the first two weeks only, and trying to find places to stay for another 6 weeks after that. My phrasing to the Yi was "Show me a picture of how my mother sees me when I want to stay in their house" -- but i realize now it's poorly worded. I'm not sure how to concisely ask the Yi what I want to know. I guess "what is going on", and "How should I act" are the 2 components of it.

IN any case, to that question, the YI gave me Hex. 33.1.3 and Hex. 25.

Hex 33 = Heaven over mountain. The noble one distances himself from small people, without dislike and yet stern.
The Judgement: Retreat. Success.
In what is small, perseverance furthers.
The image: Mountain under heaven: the image of Retreat.
Thus the superior man keeps the inferior man at a distance,
Not angrily but with reserve.

line 1: At the tail in retreat. This is dangerous.
One must not wish to undertake anything.

Withdrawing one's tail, danger. No advantage in having a direction. [Pretending to withdraw is not advised, even if you can escape. Besides, your position is still influencial.]

line 3: A halted retreat
Is nerve-wracking and dangerous.
To retain people as men- and maidservants
Brings good fortune.

Committing to withdrawal has within it the seeds of danger. Gather one's supporters first. [Fairness to one's supporters is recommended. Help them before you help yourself.]

Hex 25. Innocence/the Unexpected.

The Judgement: Innocence. Supreme success.
Perseverance furthers.
If someone is not as he should be,
He has misfortune,
And it does not further him
To undertake something.

The Image: Under heaven thunder rolls:
All things attain the natural state of innocence.
Thus the kings of old,
Rich in virtue, and in harmony with the time,
Fostered and nourished all beings.
____

It seems to be giving me advice on what I should do and not how my mother sees the situation. In any case, do others agree that I'm supposed to withdraw? (If so, how?)

Curious about other interpretations, and thank you in advance!

-elizabeth

 

[Trojina]

____

It seems to be giving me advice on what I should do and not how my mother sees the situation. In any case, do others agree that I'm supposed to withdraw? (If so, how?)

Curious about other interpretations, and thank you in advance!

-elizabeth

This seems a very sad situation that your mother does not welcome you or let you stay in her house. I'm very sorry to hear it. I agree with your interpretation I think, that withdrawing and disentangling (25) from the relationship seems to be the advice - but how to do so is certainly a difficult one and 33.3 says as much. If the answer is addressing how she sees the situation then it would seem she withdraws from you, which fits I guess with what you say about her being unwelcoming.

Perhaps it might be an idea to ask the Yi if talking it out with her would be of any use

 

[martin]

It seems to be giving me advice on what I should do and not how my mother sees the situation. In any case, do others agree that I'm supposed to withdraw? (If so, how?)

I don't know if it is an advice. Perhaps it means that she wishes to be alone, that fits with 33 and also with 25: no entanglements.
At least alone in her house, she doesn't want others to live there, or more others (from your post I gather that she doesn't live alone but with your father?).

For her, if you live there for a longer time, it may feel as if it takes away her privacy, her own space, even if you are quiet and not very 'present'.
Or it could be not so much about privacy, but more that she has her way of doing things, her routine, and fears that a permanent guest would disturb that, would make things more complicated for her (not 25). That fits also with what you say about her, that she is 'controlling', it is more difficult to stay 'in control' when there are guests.

If that is so the question is, I think, if this has anything to do with you or if it is a general tendency. Do you think that she would react in the same way if others wanted to stay in her house for an extented period of time?

 

[elizabeth]

Trojan -- Thanks for your comments and input. Martin, also, thanks for yours. Actually Trojan, your suggestion relates to Martin's interpretation -- that is, I've never discussed this with her before. When she announces her plans (ie "you can only stay here 2 weeks") the explanation added on to that is always the same, and it is in fact what Martin guessed: "we have our routine now." Martin, to your question, it *is* a general tendency, and not just me. But I tend to take it more personally because (I would like to think) I am not a "houseguest" but her daughter. I lived there for 18 years so I have a hard time understanding why now would be different (especially as I'm now an adult!) As a female witih the potential to procreate, I cannot see treating my own daughter the same way, whether she was 18 or 38 years old. (i'm saying if I ever do have a daughter or children) So it's hard to not take it personally -- since I"m being shoved into the "houseguest" category. The other thing is, I understand wanting personal space, but it isn't as if I'd be on the floor in a sleeping bag in their bedroom. I'm not infringing on *space* per se. So I cannot see where the "inconvenience" comes from. I guess it's just... two different points of view. She strikes me as one of those people who with every passing year becomes more stringent in her control-isms, as if all the bad traits start to exacerbate themselves. I hate to see this bc it's my own mother. And when she wonders why I'm literally in another hemisphere now, well, this is a big part of it.

Martin, to your point, yes, it absolutely is more difficult to stay "in control" when there are guests. (when I'm there) Yes, she lives with her husband, my father, year round.

Hm. I will do a followup reading with how I should act towards this, altho I guess i Know the answer: grin and bear it. Or maybe I should ask how I can help her become uncontrolling (but you can't change people).

 

[elizabeth]

I asked: "Show me a picture of a discussion w/my mother about the living situation, and how it makes me feel."
The Yi said Hex 5, twice, unchanging. (!!)

5. Hsu / Waiting (Nourishment)
above K'an The Abysmal, Water
below Ch'ien The Creative, Heaven

The Judgement: Waiting. If you are sincere,
You have light and success.
Perseverance brings good fortune.
It furthers one to cross the great water.

The Image: Clouds rise up to heaven:
The image of Waiting.
Thus the superior man eats and drinks,
Is joyous and of good cheer.

__
Am not sure what this means. Wait to talk to her?

 

[hilary]

Some guesswork about 33, 25 and your mother's motives...

Maybe it has to do with your retreat from her to another country, and her retreat in response, trying to re-establish a way of life without children. The longer you stay with them, the stronger the old ties (line 3 literally means 'tied retreat') become, and the harder it might be to hold onto her new way of living. On the one hand you've withdrawn and live abroad; on the other hand, you want to keep a foothold (or the tip of your tail, at least) in the old family home. It might be hard for her to reconcile these.

And one way to deal with a knotty problem is to 'Disentangle' completely: to say 'this is not for me to fix, not my business.' That can lead to quite radical gestures - so while it could be advice for you, it does sound like what she's doing here.

End of wild guesswork.

Hexagram 5: yes, expect to draw on your reserves of patience! But this also suggests, if you can, enjoying the relationship you have with her now, and in so doing nourishing the possibility of receiving more of what you need from her, later. It's also worth noting that Waiting is a pair with and - I think - alternative to Arguing.

And as someone whose mother's desire to know and control what I was doing didn't start to diminish for the first five or ten years after I left home, I sympathise and wish you luck!

 

[elizabeth]

Hilary, thanks for your input, and sympathy. Misery loves company! I was about to suggest we trade mothers, but having her try to control my life (hasn't stopped yet) is, IMHO, *as bad* as having a mother totally withdraw from you. My dream of having parents who want me, miss me, and make me feel at home (w/o controlling me or trying to) -- ha! It is just that, only a dream. If I could trade parents, I would. And at the same time, i recognize, they owe me nothing. I'm not *entitled* to stay with them when I'm in town. I understand that. I just wish it were different, because it speaks to me about how they feel about ME, no matter what anyone says.

To put it crudely then, she is inflexible: "either stay gone, or stay here, but dont keep coming back and forth" is what is going on in my mother's mind, it sounds like. Hm.

If waiting is the alternative to arguing (and that's a valid point), then I'll keep my mouth shut. I just hate feeling indebted to them that they "let me stay" -- and that sort of thing is thrown back in my face later, or will be, inevitably. "Well, we did that for you, so..". To that I say "well don't be surprised when I remain 11 timezones away for the next 3 yrs, as i dont exactly feel welcome at home." It's really really really small minded thinking that rubs the essence of who I am the wrong way. *stepping off soapbox now*

 

[rosada]

I think you're reading too much into your 33.1.3>25 answer.
You asked, "Show me how my mother sees me when I want to stay in their house"
I think 25 represents an Innocent Youth and 33 is about Retreat. So she thinks that when you come visit them, you aren't really visiting THEM, she thinks you're just Retreating from the responcibilities of being an adult in the real world - wanting to be a kid again and not pay rent. Or perhaps while you thnk you're the perfect quiet house guest, she feels slighted, that by hiding out in your room you are intentionally Retreating from having contact with them. Of course you may feel you are giving them plenty of time and attention. I'm just saying this hexagram may be saying she wants more time with you and not just more paying-respects-as-a-daughter time, but actually sharing your life, being pals. Perhaps like what we see discribed in WAITING, she wants to experience the two of you "Eating and drinking, being joyous and of good cheer."

So what to do? How about being not just a good quiet house guest in those first two weeks, but really reactivate the relationship? Be the kind of Pal every mother hopes their daughter will be. Get her one of those pillows for Christmas that says, "My Mother AND my Friend!" All the while your practicing this Joyousness and Good Cheer, be Waiting to see if this is really a relationship you'd like to continue. If you realize to be happy Mom needs a closer, more involved connection than you are comfortable with, well, then at the end of the two weeks you can say, "It's been grand, we must do this again soon." On the other hand, if you discover you can have an adult relationship with her now and you enjoy it, you can say, "You know I'm all set to pay rent for a room over at the hotel. I'd much rather keep the money in the family. How about I stay here and give you and Dad the $?" Most likely if it's been a good visit she'll invite you to stay and wont want you to pay rent. But I'd still be sure to offer it. That 33.1.3 > 25 reads like she's felt imposed upon being asked to let you stay just because you are The Young Innocent.

It occurs to me another way of interpreting 33.1.3 > 25 is to say it's telling you don't Retreat to being Naive, you know better than to think you could live 2 months with your folks and stay sane.

 

[elizabeth]

Rosada, wow.

I'm... speechless. I've wondered for *three years* what is going on and you just nailed it in two paragraphs!

*sitting in shock for at least five minutes after reading rosada's post*

My mother had said as much out loud one time to me: "You're not really here to see *us*." And I argued back that yes I am. But her 1) repeat comments that I disrupt the routine and 2) desire to control result in one thing: me pulling away from her as much as possible when I'm there. Which (as you point out) would only reinforce her view that I'm using her/them as a crash pad. Wow. I completely did not see this before!!

You're right about the two months and staying sane point> I may not be able to. But the idea of trying to bond with her more (to put in an effort. Gulp) is a new one. I presumed she did NOT want that since that's the message I have been getting from her (for three years now). But it can't make anything worse than it already is if I just try!

The question is (btw I laughed at the pillow suggestion hee hee), what does that *mean*? Just spending more time with her I guess? I mean I'm not sure what to *do* with her...Hm. I have to think about it!

 

[rosada]

Hey, that's great! Thanks for the feedback. As to how to bond now, I think it's powerful just to stay informed. Join them for coffee first thing in the morning and say, "Well, what are your plans for the day?" and then in the evening specifically ask how the plans worked out.

Co-ordinating time and schedules also creates team spirit, even when there isn't much to co-ordinate. "What time do you like to have breakfast?" "I'll be home by 5." "Let's have dinner at 6."

Take photographs of yourselves together. She'll show them to her friends and get major praise for having such a lovely family.

Put cartoons up on the refridge. It will make your presence known in a happy way. You can find good jokes googling "jokes." Here's for starters:
There was a young man from Dundo
Whose Limricks stopped at line two.

Go to a garage sale together or go by yourself and bring home a bunch odd little things to talk about.

Take her to get her nails done.

Bring home somebody really awful and tell her he's going to be her new son-in-law. That should jump start her maternal instincts.

Hmm, maybe I've said enough. Well good luck with it. I hope you'll give us an update!
Rosada

 

[elizabeth]

Oh, I like the photographs idea. That is super. I am going to try to buy her something from my city that she might like. We have a no-gifts policy on Christmas now since it was getting out of hand, but if I can find something that she will use, I might get some silent brownie points. I like the nails idea too.

I realize, looking at my schedule, we have events with various relatives planned for a six-day stretch, and I dont start to see my friends until after that, but then I will have at least 4 days in a row with friends' events. Yikes. The problem is that since my time there is limited, it puts a ton of pressure on the same 2 or 3 weeks to squeeze in *everyone* -- mom, dad, and friends too.

Thanks Rosada, you have no idea how much you've helped me! I will report back, promise (will even dig through to find this thread come February!)

 

[Trojina]

I think Rosada deserves a round of applause there yes

 

[rosada]

awww, you are so kind. Now it occurs to me that what really makes a person feel appreciated is to ask their advice. And nothing makes a person feel you're a genius like when you TAKE their advice. So to add to the things to do list, I suggest when ever possible you ask your Mom for her advice - "What lipstick shade looks better on me?" "What's good on the menu?" "Do we want to watch this video?"- and then take it! Oh, and speaking of videos,if you're not doing Christmas presents, bringing in a fun movie the family can watch together Christmas Day can be a way of giving a gift without breaking the rule. (Did you ever see AS Good As It Gets? It's really good and brings up some family themes.)
Ok. I'm done.

 

[willowfox]

Yes indeed, very cleverly worked out

 

[laylab]

Elizabeth,

This is also a VERY common reaction of family to members of their family who have left the country. I myself am an Expat, experienced the same type of behaviour and personally have spoken to countless other expats personally and via a web forum who experience the same thing.

It's quite complex ..the reasons behind it are not always nice as we don't expect our families to treat us with resentment, jealousy or control..but it is just SO common among Expats.

 

[elizabeth]

Trojan, yes, Rosada has my utmost respect, kudos, endless applause -- she deserves a Nobel Prize for on-target family relationship advice!

Rosada, you are just a wealth of super ideas here, and I'm noting them down as fast as I can! My mom *loves* that movie (As Good As It Gets) and we tend to watch videos at home so maybe I can suggest a few. I hadn't thought about asking her opinions on makeup etc but that's another great idea. "How does this look on me" or whatever. I will do so!

Laylab - wow, I did not know that this was a common occurrence. My fellow expat friends (of which there are only 3) haven't endured this, although two of them are married, so it's not such a big issue. It is comforting to know it's not just me though. Do you have any other info on what is behind it? I have been warned about "reentry" to my native country as the most difficult shift an expat ever makes (but meaning the final move back, not temporary visits like this one). But I don't know much about it psychologically. (Would love to find a book on it in fact). If you have more info do email or PM me (or post here). I'm curious.

 

[martin]

I think Rosada deserves a round of applause there yes

Yes, absolutely! I guess it takes a mother to understand how a mother feels?
About that Noble prize, I will mail Oslo ..

 

[rosada]

Thank you. Praise will get you everywhere :bows:
(Hey, another daughter/mother bonding technique)

 

[willowfox]

I remember a reading from last year which said your mother really dislikes your way of life, she was very annoyed by your leaving home to set up shop in Russia, so there is more than one issue upsetting her.

 

[elizabeth]

Rosada -- I will keep the praise in mind! *wink*

willowfox -- funny, I remember many readings about my own path/journey here, but I do not recall asking the Yi about my mother before...

 

[luz]

Although I don't always read the 'dear Abby' column in the newspaper (unless I am still needing some reading material after the comics), I happened to read it yesterday and, coincidentally, there was a letter from a mom that complained that every time her daughter and son-in-law visited they barely spent any time with the mom and dad. And she felt very hurt by it and said that sometimes she wished she didn't visit at all. What 'dear Abby' suggested was that next time they announced a visit she should tell her that they had other plans. In other words, playing hard to get. I guess that is pretty much the only bargaining chip these parents and Elizabeth's parents have.

I really like this thread and Rosada's interpretations, they say a lot about family dynamics.

I just wanted to add, also, that spending time with your mother doesn't need a lot of planning or resourcefulness. You just need the time. Wake up when she wakes up, have coffee with her, sit down to read next to her if she's reading, help her out in the kitchen if she's cooking, go grocery shopping with her, visit relatives with her if necessary, chat with her as you would chat with a friend. That's all she probably needs.

 

[elizabeth]

lightangel -- thanks. Your comments (or rather, dear Abby's comments ) also help put things in perspective. I'm *very* glad I posed this question to the Yi bc it really has opened my eyes to what's going on "behind the scenes". In recent emails I"ve said I hope to spend time witih her on this visit so..I've "set the stage" so to speak. Fingers crossed!

 

[laylab]

Good luck Elizabeth, hopefully you will be able to understand your mother's perspective and vice versa.

 

[elizabeth]

*Sigh*. So just when I thought I was in the clear.

We have an offsite meeting near my parents' house, which is part of the reason why I will be staying in my home country/city/town/area for two extra months this winter (bridging gap btwn end of vacation and offsite meeting). This wasn't mentioned earlier in this thread but now the issue of "being welcome at home" is pushing into my career arena.

My boss emailed me and asked if I could stay with my parents during the offsite meeting in February rather than in a hotel smack dab near the office. In other words, save the company money. Since I will not be staying with my parents at that point, rather, with my cousin, I want to be honest -- 3 issues are at play:
1) the boss trying to use my parents to save a buck and
2) the issue of me being honest with my boss that my parents are not ahem "average", nor should he expect them to essentially foot the corporation's bill. (Yes I'm an idealist).
3) my personal life (where I stay, where I can/can't stay, where I choose to stay) in my professional opinion, should not be my boss' business.

I suggested to my mother we tell him that they're renovating (bc i really didnt know what to say). She wants me to say "yes i'm staying with my parents" and she writes "we will work something out". That is a lot of moving around for me: at my parents' then to my cousin's house, then to my parents' again... (I guess I could just STAY at my cousin's the whole time, the boss won't know where I am).
But I digress. I wanted to knwo what the Yi thought so I asked it two questions.

1) show me a picture of if i tell my boss I WILL NOT be staying w/my parents.

Hex 6.6 Conflict -> Hex 47. Oppression/Exhaustion

Hex 6. Sung / Conflict [ above Ch'ien The Creative, Heaven \ below K'an The Abysmal, Water ]
The Judgement: Conflict. You are sincere And are being obstructed.
A cautious halt halfway brings good fortune.
Going through to the end brings misfortune.
It furthers one to see the great man.
It does not further one to cross the great water.

(I am being obstructed by mother interfering? or by boss trying to weasel money out of my family? Or both?)

The Image: Heaven and water go their opposite ways:
The image of Conflict.
Thus in all his transactions the superior man
Carefully considers the beginning.

Line 1: Even if by chance a leather belt is bestowed on one,
By the end of morning
It will have been snatched away three times.

Hmmm. If I am given a gift it will be taken away? (?)

47. K'un / Oppression (Exhaustion)
above Tui The Joyous, Lake \ below K'an The Abysmal, Water

The Judgement: Oppression. Success. Perseverance.
The great man brings about good fortune.
No blame. When one has something to say, It is not believed.

The Image: There is no water in the lake: The image of Exhaustion.
Thus the superior man stakes his life On following his will.

\\\\
THEN I asked the reverse, "show me a picture of if i tell my boss YES I will stay w/my parents during the offsite meeting."

HEX. 28.3.4.5 Ta Kuo / Preponderance of the Great --> Hex 7 the Army.

Hex 28 [ above Tui The Joyous, Lake \ below Sun The Gentle, Wind ]
The Judgement: Preponderance of the Great.
The ridgepole sags to the breaking point.
It furthers one to have somewhere to go. Success.

*That right there seems more positive. But wait! There are changing lines...*

The Image: The lake rises above the trees:
The image of Preponderance of the Great.
Thus the superior man, when he stands alone,Is unconcerned

line3: The ridgepole sags to the breaking point.
Misfortune.

*note: I read that this line refers to a man who won't take advice and forces his companions to go with him; they refuse. "The burden steadily increases and catastrophe is the only outcome. "

line4: The ridgepole is braced. Good fortune.
If there are ulterior motives, it is humiliating.

Note: I read that this means a good man relates well to those below him and masters the situation but if he misuses the situation for personal advancement, only disgrace comes.

If that is true, would me expecting my boss to foot the hotel bill as for the other attendees be "using the situation for personal advancement"?


line 5: A withered poplar puts forth flowers.
An older woman takes a husband.
No blame. No praise.

*note: I had line 5 in another reading about nothing bad nor good coming from a situation. However, receiving that line along with 3 and 4 confuses me. Line 3 seems negative, 4 postive, and 5 indifferent...

7. Shih / The Army
above K'un The Receptive, Earth
below K'an The Abysmal, Water

The Judgement: The Army. The army needs perseverance And a strong man.
Good fortune without blame.

The Image: In the middle of the earth is water: The image of The Army.
Thus the superior man increases his masses By generosity toward the people.

I should be generous or accept my mother's generosity so as not to rock the boat in the office??

Any interpretations are extremely appreciated as I have to reply to my boss on Monday!

 

[becalm]

OMGoodness wouldn't we all love to know what happened here....*sigh* I guess we never will