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Nuclear hexagrams

Trojina

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Hi my-key

I'm perplexed.

The cast hexagram is usually seen as the current situation, 'as encountered' and the relating hexagram is usually seen as the direction of change. As such we may never arrive at the resulting hexagram. Other events may create different changes before that. (Thank you for that insight Bradford and bless you).

How can there be two expressions of each of these? Have I misunderstood?


Backtracking I was shocked and amazed by this post :eep: I had to reread it.


You are aware most people here see the relating hexagram as the context, where the person is with the thing, how the person is relating to the thing asked about and as Karcher I think once put it 'the sea the primary swims in'. Actually I don't know who said that, possibly Lise but still. How can you say the resulting hexagram may never be arrived at ? We are already in it, it isn't a future destination. Well it may sometimes indicate aspects of the future but it's not 'the future'.


Well how one views the relating hexagram is a matter of opinion but my shock is that you found this POV shocking ? I'm puzzled. Have I misunderstood you ? You must be familiar with this idea already ?


You've seen this on that old relating hexagram conundrum ?
 
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Freedda

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... the relating hexagram is usually seen as the direction of change. As such we may never arrive at the resulting hexagram. Other events may create different changes before that. (Thank you for that insight Bradford and bless you).
When I first read that, I was a bit perplexed by what you meant, but I didn't think it was central to the questions I had about the nuclear trigrams and hexagrams, so I didn't give it much thought.

Looking at it now, my sense is you might be saying that the resulting hexgrams is not pointing to a future outcome, but is instead showing a 'direction of change' (and correct me if I'm incorrectly applying meaning to what you said).

I also read that in Hatcher, and what I took from it is the resulting hex. not saying 'in the future you will end up at the south pole' but something more along the lines of 'look in that direction - the 'direction' being the meaning of the resultant hexgram. This has lead me to consider the resulting hexgram as a suggested attitude or approach - maybe an 'inner direction' if you will.

So, ... the resulting hexgrams is not the future, but it might be a suggested attitude or approach for your present situation, that could affect your future ....

But, as to how you mean it or meant it here .... ?

all the best .....
 

Trojina

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Just noticed this is a really old thread iamsgirl started last year
 
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Freedda

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Just noticed this is a really old thread iamsgirl started last year
Yes, an older thread, to which I recently posted a question about the sources of using upper and lower nuclear hexagrams - which have now grown to a total of 5 nuclear hexgrams, and Kevin's post was one of the wide-ranging responses ....

... and the discsussion has gone in all kinds of directions, including the meanings and uses of the hexgrams, resultant hexagrams, that when I use the trigrams without the Yi's text, should I condiser this another form of divination? ... and about the nuclear hexgrams that appear to come in all shapes and sizes ....

... and my orignal question has even prompted Harmen Mesker to create a YiTube (YouTube) video, which actually helped to answer the question I originally asked!

... ah, the wonderers of the internet! Who knew back in Feb 2019 that this is where we'd end up - which begs the question, if way back then Iams_grl had asked the yi about this, what would the resulting hexagram have said about the future outcome? :)

best .....
 
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kevin

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It was Bradford who stated that the resulting hexagram was a direction of travel and might never be reached.

It was Stephen Karcher that stated that the resulting hexagram is sometimes, "the sea in which the other hexagram swims."

My surprise and perlexedness was that the two of these nuclear Hexagrams seemed to duplicate the roles of the cast and resulting hexagram.Unless I have misunderstood Mykey.

Are you aware that traditionally in the West the resulting hexagram was seen as the outcome? I think it was Stephen (in the late 90's I think) who first voiced the context perspective as something that could occur.

But that my post stirred you so - Gosh.

Be well.
 

Trojina

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I'm half kidding Kevin....with the shock. Yes very much aware that the resulting hexagram was seen as the outcome because that's what most newbies here still think


My surprise and perlexedness was that the two of these nuclear Hexagrams seemed to duplicate the roles of the cast and resulting hexagram.Unless I have misunderstood Mykey.



Ah that is what you were talking about
 

kevin

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When I first read that, I was a bit perplexed by what you meant, but I didn't think it was central to the questions I had about the nuclear trigrams and hexagrams, so I didn't give it much thought.

Looking at it now, my sense is you might be saying that the resulting hexgrams is not pointing to a future outcome, but is instead showing a 'direction of change' (and correct me if I'm incorrectly applying meaning to what you said).

I also read that in Hatcher, and what I took from it is the resulting hex. not saying 'in the future you will end up at the south pole' but something more along the lines of 'look in that direction - the 'direction' being the meaning of the resultant hexgram. This has lead me to consider the resulting hexgram as a suggested attitude or approach - maybe an 'inner direction' if you will.

I think that is the jist of what Bradford said. Though I don't think he ruled out that one might arrive at the 'change' indicated. He also used the word 'vector' in the piece I read. I think this is in his Bk. II.

[/QUOTE]

So, ... the resulting hexgrams is not the future, but it might be a suggested attitude or approach for your present situation, that could affect your future ....

But, as to how you mean it or meant it here .... ?

all the best .....

Yes, direction of change which I see as perhaps an internal journey or one in the outer, 'real' world, or both.

And, as all Hexagrams contain advice as to how to deal with that situation or change that would apply too - we're one to adopt this model.

As per my reply to Trojina above. It was Karcher who came up with the phrase that the resulting hexagram might sometimes be, " The sea in which the cast hexagram swims." This was the first time I saw anyone adopting this approach. It's not difficult to choose between the two 'expressions' as one merely has to consider if the resulting hexagram is already observable as a context.

I hope that clarifies wha I was Tring to express.

Best To you

I'm on a very small screen right now - I hope I haven't hashed this oo much.
 

kevin

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I'm half kidding Kevin....with the shock. Yes very much aware that the resulting hexagram was seen as the outcome because that's what most newbies here still think






Ah that is what you were talking about
Chuckles

Your post confused me as I know you have a very broad knowledge of these things.

:)

Be well
 

kevin

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When I first read that, I was a bit perplexed by what you meant, but I didn't think it was central to the questions I had about the nuclear trigrams and hexagrams, so I didn't give it much thought.

Looking at it now, my sense is you might be saying that the resulting hexgrams is not pointing to a future outcome, but is instead showing a 'direction of change' (and correct me if I'm incorrectly applying meaning to what you said).

I also read that in Hatcher, and what I took from it is the resulting hex. not saying 'in the future you will end up at the south pole' but something more along the lines of 'look in that direction - the 'direction' being the meaning of the resultant hexgram. This has lead me to consider the resulting hexgram as a suggested attitude or approach - maybe an 'inner direction' if you will.

So, ... the resulting hexgrams is not the future, but it might be a suggested attitude or approach for your present situation, that could affect your future ....

But, as to how you mean it or meant it here .... ?

all the best .....
Sorry to come back at you twice, I'm tired. It's been a busy day.

In my previous reply I said that the interchange between cast hexagram and resulting hexagram culs be representative of the inner world change or the material world or both.

If adopting this method I would follow the upper lower trigram convention of Upper trigram for outer world and inner trigram for inner world. I would also ponder the direction of flow between t he two Hexagrams as well as trying to see of the resulting hexagram was setting a context for the cast hexagram.

Well... Time for me to chill out forme.

I hope this helps clarify my thoughts.

You asked a very interesting hexagram and with Harmen's input I think we can say it has been explored!

Best to you.
 
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Freedda

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I would follow the upper lower trigram convention of Upper trigram for outer world and inner trigram for inner world. I would also ponder the direction of flow between t he two Hexagrams as well as trying to see of the resulting hexagram was setting a context for the cast hexagram.
I'm not quite sure what you mean here, but that doesn't matter. I trust that your way of working with the Yi works for you. I am glad Harmen created his video - it answered my original question and I think cleared up a few points for other people as well.

Best ....
 

kevin

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Reference Harmen's upper trigram / lower trigram representing outer world inner world? But, it's a fairly common perspetive.

(Working from his videos).

And, I seldom use much of hexagrams... So this is older perspective.

Best
 
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Freedda

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Reference Harmen's upper trigram / lower trigram representing outer world inner world
Yes, I get that part. And it's something Bradford Hatcher and I think others have talked about.

But I did not understand when you said that you "ponder the direction of flow (???) between the two Hexagrams as well as trying to see of (if?) the resulting hexagram was setting a context for the cast hexagram" - especially because you said you don't really use the hexgrams? So .... to talk about how you use the hexgrams when you don't use them?

You can answer if you want, but I am fine as is too ... it's up to you.

best ....
 

kevin

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Why should me not currently using this approach make my thoughts invalid? Have I misunderstood you?

I only write about what I have tried and that with which I have direct experience. Though I might not still use that particular method cannot really invalidate my comment... Can it?

As for the direction? Interrelationships have ebbs and flows. Forwards and backwards. Fairly fundamental to Yijing I think.

As for trusting it works for me? Where are you Comming from?

Stephen Karcher thought me good enough to collaborate with for some fifteen years. Actually, I am editing one of his unpublished works right now... Hence my long day.

After 45 years of study and experimentation... I am happy... Thank you. And though you have recently come to working with trigrams and imagery do please recognise I worked that approach out for myself over twenty years ago.

I'm glad my response is of little concern to you. You have certainly queried my thoughts quite extensively.

I have been patient and done my best to be helpful.

Best to you - really.
 
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Freedda

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Why should me not currently using this approach make my thoughts invalid? Have I misunderstood you?
Kevin,

I don't think that anything you offer here is invalid - nor was I trying to undermine your credibilty - but at them same time I don't understand some of what you're saying - which is entirely vaid of me to think. And I was confused because I thougt you were talking about an approach or method which you don't use - and maybe I assumed you also don't really like? - and I think that's also entirely valid for me to wonder about.

And I didn't know what you meant when you said "ponder the direction of flow" so I simply asked about that as well, not as a way of saying 'you're stupid!' but as a way of saying, 'I don't know what you mean, but I am curious about it.'

For example, if I were to start to ramble on about all the ways I use nuclear hexgrams - when in fact I don't use them, and I've told people I don't use them - and maybe I've said I don't even like them! - I imagine that would be confusing for somne people, and someone might legitimately ask, 'hey, why are you talking about using nuclear trigrams when you don't use them (at least not anymore) and you don't even like them'? That seems like an entirely appropriate question for someone to ask.

It would be a different matter however, if I started by saying: 'I used to use nuclear hexagrams, and I don't anymore, but when I did ...." .... Or, 'I don't use them and I dont' really like them, but here's my understanding of how they are used ...."

PS - have you heard from Mr. Karcher at all? I and others have tried to contact him over the last few years, but I didn't ever hear back from him. Last I heard he was living near Port Townsend, Wash. which is a 30-mintue car drive, then a 30-minute ferry ride away from me. At one time I hoped that I could meet up with him, treat him to lunch or a beer, and talk Karchter talk ....


PPS - if you feel that we need to talk about this via PM, I'm open to that as well.

*********
 
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Sparhawk

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Just because I love throwing monkey wrenches into the cogs and then run away for a few years, I'll leave you with two old threads on the Bao Ti to spike your use of trigrams and hexagrams a little.

And I mean OLD... Don't hate me, I love you all, still... :LOL:


And I think Lauree Templeton shared an interesting idea, here:


PS: BTW, I wonder how many thousands miles has that little dragon of mine traveled after all these years... :unsure:
PPS: Perhaps I should update that profile picture. It means squat, but I look much more distinguished and wiser now... :ROFLMAO:
 

Sparhawk

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Hmmm, blame me for that one, but Harmen didn't parachute into that thread to start talking about trigrams, way back then. Him and everyone else was, for many years prior to that! I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, that you take some issue with his interpretation and conclusions. That is OK. I would be very hard pressed to find anyone in the present who can back his opinions with factual scholarship the way Harmen does, however. Alas, the Yijing is an open-ended system where your convictions are as much at home as are mine or his. I've been reading quite a bit about infinity in math lately, just to clear my head :))), and we all fit in it...
 
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Freedda

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correct me if I'm wrong, that you take some issue with his interpretation and conclusions ....
Yes, (or do I mean No?) you are wrong. If you look back at post #13, I started the lastest round in this thread by asking about the origins/authors/etc. of two of the Nuclear Hexagrams (which some people were calling the 'upper' and 'lower' nuclear hexgrams, but I was referring to them as the 'other' ones .... )

I had seen a few threads about them, and there is an entry in the WikiWing section of this site about them, but I didn't really see anything about where they come from. So, this lead to a rambling discussion about many things related to trigrams and hexagrams, and if you look back a few posts, you'll see where Hilary posted Harmen's video, which was responding to my question.

(Before posting my question, I had already talked to Harmen about the nuclear hexgrams - in another space - but besides this I think someone else may have contacted him to seek his ideas about this. And I'm glad he responded.)

As to Harmen, I just finished taking an 8-week online course with him about using trigrams, and I'm planning to take another 8-week course with him about the text of the Yi. I have posted both of these in the Yi News section. I really like his way of approaching - and teaching - the Yi!

So, no, I do not "take some issue with his interpretation and conclusions" or yes, I do really appreciate his interpretation and conclusions.

PS - I know that Harmen travels quite a bit, but I did not know that parachuting was one of his preferred travel methods!

Best ....
 

Sparhawk

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As to Harmen, I just finished taking an 8-week online course with him about using trigrams, and I'm planning to take another 8-week course with him about the text of the Yi. I have posted both of these in the Yi News section. I really like his way of approaching - and teaching - the Yi!

So, no, I do not "take some issue with his interpretation and conclusions" or yes, I do really appreciate his interpretation and conclusions.

Great, my mistake then! I do tend to read fast and between the lines and I thought I read something to that regard in one of the posts.
 
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Freedda

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I do tend to read fast and between the lines
No worries. I do that too I'm afraid. I think it comes from my work years (now retired since Dec.) where I'd have to look through dozens of emails each day ... and I don't think the internet nor a computer screen has added to thoughtful or careful reflection - so all is forgiven!
 

kevin

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For example, if I were to start to ramble on about all the ways I use nuclear hexgrams - when in fact I don't use them, and I've told people I don't use them - and maybe I've said I don't even like them! - I imagine that would be confusing for some people, and someone might legitimately ask, 'hey, why are you talking about using nuclear trigrams when you don't use them (at least not anymore) and you don't even like them'? That seems like an entirely appropriate question for someone to ask.

Is that what I've done? Chuckles.

It would be a different matter however, if I started by saying: 'I used to use nuclear hexagrams, and I don't anymore, but when I did ...." .... Or, 'I don't use them and I don't really like them, but here's my understanding of how they are used ...."

I think that was my position and that was fairly clear in my posts. However I think they do tell us a lot about the flow of change through the sequence. So I don't reject them completely. With regard to divination they were one of my 'loose ends'. Hence my interest in this thread.

No matter, I came back to delete my post. I shan't do that now as you have replied.

I have gained a great deal from this thread and have valued your posts.

Enough.

Be well

P.S. As for Stephen - I am trying to ascertain if he is still with us, or whether I need to find his 'estate'. It is unusual for him not to reply to me especially as I was offering to get some of his works published. The book I am working on now is an uprated 'How to Use the I Ching' circa 2010. It uses the Total I Ching translation with a clear commentary. No spirits and such like as found in the TIC. I think it is one of the best entry Yijings around, along with HB's. It's a shame that it hasn't been made available. And, again it is not my preferred perspective, but the Yi world is much larger than I. (sic)
 
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Freedda

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However I think they do tell us a lot about the flow of change through the sequence.
Okay, so I will start by apologizing for being dense here - and I'll try to be more specific.

I gather that what you're saying is that to 'ponder the direction of flow' is similar to or the same as ... 'they do tell us a lot about the flow of change through the sequence' (quoted above).

* And again, sorry if I'm not following the thread all that well, or that I don't remember what you've made clear and what you haven't, but in what I quoted above, 'they' means who or what exactly? The primary and resultant hexgrams, or the nuclear hexarams or trigrams, or? (And I think my confusion might be understandable, considering all the places this discussion has gone.)

* And which 'sequence' are you talking about? The sequence which is made of the main and resultant hexgrams? Or the sequence through the nuclear hexgrams? A sequence to me is like "A to B to C ..." and I am sorry, but I've forgotten which sequence you are saying the change is flowing through - or how it's doing that exactly?
....
 
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Freedda

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1) As for trusting it works for me? Where are you Comming from?

2) And ... I'm glad my response is of little concern to you.
Kevin, I went back and reread what you said above, and I feel I need to specifically respond to these two comments.

1) I meant this as a simple acknowledgement - perhaps like, I'm glad this works for you, or it's good you've found ways to work with the Yi .... There was no sarcasm, or ill will or ill-intent behind what I said, but you seem to be reading that into it.

2) I never said that your responses are of little or no concern to me! And I have no idea where you get that from? If I didn't care what you said, I would not be interested or inquisitive about what you're saying. And I wouldn't go out of my way to try and be more clear about what I'm asking ....

And finally, I didn't remember about your history with Karcher until you mentioned it above. That's all well and good, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to understand all of what you're saying - or that you're necessarily being clear about what you're saying.

If you don't want to answer my questions, then don't. Harmen's video and my discussion with Hilary about divination use answered the main questions I originally had here. But you don't need to pull rank on me just because you feel insulted or put upon - for no reason.

And as I said before, if we need to take this offline and message about this instead, I can do that.

....
 
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Gmulii

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The topic is expanding very fast, so I can't catch up to reading all. : )
Will watch Harmen's video too, when I can, I'm sure will be very interesting, but now will just cover this.

Indeed you could.

Gmulii, out of interest, are moving lines particularly important in Wen Wang Gua? (Harmen mentioned there are the seeds of some WWG ideas in the Shifa manuscript, which is definitely not the Yi, so I'm wondering whether it has quite independent roots and just got 'grafted' onto the Yijing later, as it was the only surviving hexagram-tree.)

We look at strength of lines to figure out the influence of something in the situation(for example, Self line would be the person asking, usually, if that line is strong they have somewhat strong impact in the situation etc. )
And moving lines are considered stronger then most of the other stuff. At least initially, then we look what it changes to and how the changed line interacts with the hexagram

As far as history, the earlier source we usually mention(though there are many reasons to think it didn't started with him), was Jing Fang.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jing_Fang
I haven't read the original stuff, but from what I know it should be the system in very similar ways to what we use today, with only few things added through the years. Yet he did use stuff that we don't use as much today(like the heavenly stems on the trigrams, although I have seen acupuncturist to use that too).

Anyway, about Jing Fang - Apparently, there are some letters to his teacher where it seems clear he didn't originate the system, yet we don't know the system in full form before him I think.

Hopefully, Harmen will make a video on history of WWG someday, but I don't think it originates from a classical text, its very related to the calendar and there aren't a static view to the hexagrams, in the sense that each hexagram can mean different things depending on the situation, the point of view the person asks for and the subject they are interested in.
There are types of hexagrams and stuff, they are often seen in normal Yi Jing books as well, but even that isn't enough to point to an answer if we don't use the elements and the lines.


Some of the most important systems in the East aren't recorded, as far as I know, or the recorded text isn't understandable without a teacher. Some ways to preserve the "craft". The whole idea of "heaven can't tell" etc.

That is slowly changing, as more info is pouring out in the open, yet even today I would say the most useful stuff we can sometimes see in forums, blogs and similar stuff, yet I haven't seen in books.
There are exceptions, of course, TCM has very strong roots in classic texts, bazi does as well, although in there again the most awesome styles aren't recorded in accessible way... Feng Shui in the form its most known today has classics but they aren't understandable without a teacher explaining what the poems mean and there are many different schools each insisting they have the right understanding while viewing it in entirely different way then the others. Yet there are good books on that now , as well. There are many other systems, like Face Reading(Mian Xiang), - that has a few classical texts, yet the practice of the system doesn't seem related to them in any way from what I have seen.
Date selection has some very detailed classical texts , although there are many systems there and systems like XKZR would be based on Dahong teachings and for them the foundation is same as for that part of Feng Shui.

And there are many others, but my view is that there is somewhat a division. There are professional systems that are used by masters there and they are usually passed from teacher to student, their essence often doesn't exist in classic text at all, or it will be compressed into a few sentences from a text that no one would consider to use in this specific way.

And there are classic texts - mostly for scholars. There are sometimes someone from the lineages publishing a text or book(and Jing Fang would fall in there as it seems he merged both, as he had that kind of lineage yet worked for the emperor), and sometimes the scholars would organize and make some compilation text, more often seen in TCM then the divinatory arts.

But there is clear line what is used profesionally, what is used for the emperor and what is viewed in more philosophic way.
In that sense, the "3 styles" for example, QMDJ, DLR and TY, were all used for the emperor and I have seen books mention that they were forbiden to be used in any way by common people. Yet even today, we don't have any classic texts about DLR or TY as far as I'm aware, and the 3 classic texts about QMDJ, won't be undertandable at all, for someone without storng background in forms of the system.

Combining with the fact that in daoism QMDJ works in entirely different way, there it is based on very detailed classic texts, yet they aren't accessible and are hand copied form master to master it seems. Today we know a lot of how that works and it isn't possible to do for a western person, there are rituals and stuff,to awaken the 6 Jias and "bring them out in battle" and stuff like that... Its complex and some parts there require the practitioner to stay in 30 days in a field near a mountain and do specific rituals each day etc.

Of course, that texts would be part of the daoist canon and that is a whole another story there:


Anyway, I'm somewhat going offtopic, my idea was - most of the interesting systems in the Five Arts can't be followed to a classical texts, as they were transmitted orally or in books that are only accessible to that lineage. Strange as it may seem, that is still the practice even today.

From what I understand Liu Yao and WWG are part of that tradition, there is no classical texts known today to be the base, before Jing Fang and they are so heavily connected to the Five elements(so much that people I learned a lot from, actually viewed them as systems from "five elements divination") that if they were based on classical text it should be very moving around and focusing on relations between the elements, premade sentence can't ever cover how its done there.
 
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kevin

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To some degree my post last night was born of tiredness and frustration that you have had so much difficulty following my posts. Perhaps too, in tiredness I felt you were being dismissive. Hence I felt the need to point out my background. e.g. "I'm not just pulling this stuff out of the air you know."

For that I apologise.

I would add sequence refers to the KW sequence.

The context of flow is that between the cast and resulting hexagrams. Such was the context. Though I would add that a core principle of Yijing is ebb/flow, comings and goings, growing to over fullness/diminishment. Everything interrelated through the flow. As oppose to it being a linear causal model of creation and change. Perhaps one day someone will start a thread examining the core principles of Yijing.

I don't think it wise to continue this discussion at this time, but do feel free to PM me if you feel there is 'unfinished business' I bear you no ill will.

Be well
 
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Gmulii

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Are you aware that traditionally in the West the resulting hexagram was seen as the outcome? I think it was Stephen (in the late 90's I think) who first voiced the context perspective as something that could occur.

These is one of those things where the classical point of view is far, far apart from the point of view of most professional practitioners in the East I'm aware of.

Its also one of the topics I try to stay away from here and I'm doing it for a while now. People with enough interest for another point of view to what the hexagrams actually are will search and likely will find with time... Not our place to give too much away when no one wants or needs it yet, even more so when the resistance to new points of view are so strong(or old points of view that may have been missed along the way, for some reason).
 
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Freedda

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These is one of those things where the classical point of view is far, far apart from the point of view of most professional practitioners in the East I'm aware of.
Quite awhile ago, in another thread, someone posted something about how the 'Chinese' use or see the I Ching. I questioned them about this notion of lumping people into one group and then ascribing certain ways of thinking or being to that entire group. I think that's called being prejudice, e.g. "Jews (or Blacks, or Asians, or White people etc.) all do or all act like this ... "

Many of use here in the 'West' may approach the Yi in different ways than what we might call a 'classical point of view' - which as you describe it, is in the realm of the East (e.g. China, and perhaps other Asian countries where it is common practice to use the Yi.)

And even setting aside this idea of 'a classical point of view', there are ways of using the Yi that are more well known and more in use in some Asian countries than they are here in the West (e.g. the US, Europe, Canada, the Americas ... )

However, I don't think there are clear lines or boundaries around these different approaches or ways of using the Yi - just like there are no clear boundaries about the depth of people's understanding about the Yi. There are, for example, quite a few 'western' scholars who have done great work at exploring and uncovering the Yi's use and meanings, sometimes in ways that some 'Chinese scholars' may not be. It more a question of intererst and intelligence, and less one of race, or ethnicity or country of origin.

And after looking at Harmen's video about the sources and uses of the nuclear hexgrams, it seems clear to me that there is really no concensus among Asian or Chinese scholars or practioners about how the Yi was used, or should be used or what it means.

One of the key take-aways from the video is that there were (or are) people in China who applied questionable techniques or 'pretzel (twisted) logic' to the Yi, and there are/were others of these 'esteemed scholars' who said, 'no, you are just going too far'.

all the best ....
 

kevin

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These is one of those things where the classical point of view is far, far apart from the point of view of most professional practitioners in the East I'm aware of.

Its also one of the topics I try to stay away from here and I'm doing it for a while now. People with enough interest for another point of view to what the hexagrams actually are will search and likely will find with time... Not our place to give too much away when no one wants or needs it yet, even more so when the resistance to new points of view are so strong(or old points of view that may have been missed along the way, for some reason).
Yes, we must never try to drag people incensoriously into the light as we see it.

Equally on a site who's purpose is both to teach and discuss should we overly censor ourselves?

I for one desisted from discussing trigram imagery core focus here many years ago.

There is a balance.
 
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Gmulii

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Quite awhile ago, in another thread, someone posted something about how the 'Chinese' use or see the I Ching. I questioned them about this notion of lumping people into one group and then ascribing certain ways of thinking or being to that entire group. I think that's called being prejudice, e.g. "Jews (or Blacks, or Asians, or White people etc.) all do or all act like this ... "

Many of use here in the 'West' may approach the Yi in different ways than what we might call a 'classical point of view' - which as you describe it, is in the realm of the East (e.g. China, and perhaps other Asian countries where it is common practice to use the Yi.)

And even setting aside this idea of 'a classical point of view', there are ways of using the Yi that are more well known and more in use in some Asian countries than they are here in the West (e.g. the US, Europe, Canada, the Americas ... )

However, I don't think there are clear lines or boundaries around these different approaches or ways of using the Yi - just like there are no clear boundaries about the depth of people's understanding about the Yi. There are, for example, quite a few 'western' scholars who have done great work at exploring and uncovering the Yi's use and meanings, sometimes in ways that some 'Chinese scholars' may not be. It more a question of intererst and intelligence, and less one of race, or ethnicity or country of origin.

And after looking at Harmen's video about the sources and uses of the nuclear hexgrams, it seems clear to me that there is really no concensus among Asian or Chinese scholars or practioners about how the Yi was used, or should be used or what it means.

One of the key take-aways from the video is that there were (or are) people in China who applied questionable techniques or 'pretzel (twisted) logic' to the Yi, and there are/were others of these 'esteemed scholars' who said, 'no, you are just going too far'.

all the best ....

In this case, I meant the classical sources and scholars in the East vs the professional practitioners I respect again in the East again.
As in the west, we can already clearly see there isn't consensus, either.

And I'm fine with someone thinking its prejudice when the styles of reading and viewing the material are so different. And I'm also happy to think of it as a whole collective view to how the Changes work, when they start to find more common ground.


I have a reason for saying it, however, as we do need to understand how the hexagrams relate, or we won't be able to say when something will happen and if you view cases we read in the Five Arts forum, we often manage to do it with very high accuracy...

If you look a while back I did use to say "practitioners that I like" or "practitioners that know what they are doing" etc. but at some point I figure out that is probably implied.
But - sure, there are countless different ways of viewing each of these from practitioner all over the world, but when we get to how much of that actually works in practice the numbers shrinks down to very few. : )

All this isn't that important for the text, as any possible text someone reads can be linked to any event, so there is no way to disprove relevence there. Yet for other systems the details are often very exact, so any mistake along the way will show up very clearly with the development of the situations we ask for. : )
 

Trojina

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If the question was about sources of nuclear hexagrams it seems a non question given they are already there intrinsic in the structure. They weren't invented by anyone they were there to see if one cared to look. (I haven't watched Harmen's video yet that's my view by myself)

I often sense this need for authentication as if a person, any person, is somehow not entitled to look and find a pattern in the structure unless authenticated by someone else.

If that was not 'the original question'meaning not iams girl's question but a new question from the middle of the thread somewhere don't mind me I'm lost. The original question of the thread was from iams girl some time back so I'm not sure what the question really is now. Probably a fresh thread may have worked better in order to note whose question is being addressed.
 
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