Oracle and Image

[marybluesky]

The hexagram's oracle seems to be the first thing to read when using the I Ching for divination- specially if we receive an unchanging one.
That said, what's the role of hexagram's image in divination?

 

[svenrus]

Some of the hexagrams seems to be added a text which could support that.

Hex. 62

With some good phantasy it could look like a bird with it's two wings unfolded and the text* says:
62.1 Flying bird


Hex. 20

The Tag, guan meaning Observing - and again, with some phantasy it could look like a watch tower.

Hex. 30

The Tag, li meaning Oriole according to R. Rutt * but where John Minford ** beside Oriole also got Net which, the last tag could suggest netting (birds) and this hexagram (again with good phantasy) could remind of a Net

There are certainly more hexagrams alike, these just three of them.

Personally my guess is that what was first observed back then, when the first oracles were taken by means of these cracks in bones etc. it were the patterns that these lines (cracks) showed that represented the oracle. Text came to it later. But: me guessing.....
____________________

* ) Richard Rutt, ZhouYi - The book of Changes, Routledge, London&N.Y. 2002
** ) John Minford, I Ching, Viking, USA 2014

 

[svenrus]

PS: If You by The hexagrams oracle meant the Judgement, the text..... (?) then take the above for what it is and forget it please.

 

[marybluesky]

PS: If You by The hexagrams oracle meant the Judgement, the text..... (?) then take the above for what it is and forget it please.

Yes I mean the judgement which is sometimes referred to as the oracle, in this site's readings included.

 

[bradford]

There are two sets of image texts, by different authors and showing different levels of understanding.
The Da Xiang, great or overall image, looks at the Gua as a fusion of trigrams. It's extremely insightful and almost always more helpful than the much older Tuan or Judgment. The Xiao Xiang, small or lesser image simply expands on the line statements. They are more hit-or-miss in their helpfulness.

 

[moss elk]

I see the Image as focused summary of the Gua's overall meaning.
Like a memory aid.
"what's going on in this chapter"
or WWJZD?

And with a reading with changing lines,
the Judgement/Oracle doesn't really apply, it is overridden by the auspice in the line.

 

[marybluesky]

Interesting David.

 

[Liselle]

Hilary said this recently:

The Image, in any case, doesn't necessarily describe what is happening, but what would be happening in an ideal situation.

She's said similar things plenty of other times, but this is a particularly pithy sentence imo.

Could also be that closer the thing you're asking about comes, or potentially could come, or aspires to come, to an ideal situation, the more the Image will apply or could apply, and vice versa. Stuff like that. (Note the next day: that sentence is me talking, not Hilary. Not sure it makes any sense.) I think the point is always at least be aware that it describes an ideal. (You can see how unpithy *I* am .)

 

[Liselle]

As I understood Hilary, the former. What the junzi (noble young one) would do.

Actually I don't even understand ideal = it is what it is. Could you give an example?

Not sure the lines factor into this. I thought Mary was wondering about the oracle/judgement vs. the Great Image (the Daxiang). Bradford brought up the Little Images, Xiaoxiang, which is fine and those do apply to the lines, not that I know anything about them, but usually when people wonder about oracle vs. Image they mean the Daxiang, which is how I took Mary's question.

 

[Liselle]

However, for me Mary's question was not so specific - more like 'I know what role the text plays in a reading, but what about the imagery?'

Maybe that's the confusion. Mary didn't say imagery, she just said image. She didn't capitalize it, but in the context of what she wrote I thought she meant the Daxiang. Most of the time when people mention "the image" around here they mean the Daxiang.

The hexagram's oracle seems to be the first thing to read when using the I Ching for divination- specially if we receive an unchanging one.
That said, what's the role of hexagram's image in divination?

(underlining added by me)

If I were to ask: tell me what I need to know to make my relationship better; and the response I got was 18.2 > 52

18's Image:
'Below the mountain is the wind.
Corruption.
A noble one rouses the people to nurture character.'

18.2:
'Ancestral mother’s corruption, Does not allow constancy.'

Hm, well, Hilary explains the Image by saying instead of seeing mountain over wind as mountain trapping fetid air, in the best case scenario this is a chance to fix the corruption by using the wind to stir things up. Breathe fresh air into whatever it is. She says the ideal mountain is protective rather than stifling. (I'm paraphrasing, hopefully not terribly.)

18.2 can be a mother who smothers too much. Relating hexagram 52 might mean there need to be better boundaries. Maybe the querent tries to keep track of his/her significant other's every move, and is being told to let the other person breathe a little.

 

[Liselle]

Another tentative example might be one from today when I asked about cat food, since stores are out of stuff. "Advice for getting Tibbles's food?" 31uc

Image: "Above the mountain is a lake: Influence. A noble one accepts people with emptiness." It might mean I'll have to take what I can get, and not worry if it's not her usual flavors.

A problem with that is if I bring something home she doesn't like, she'll refuse to eat it and of course I can't make her. I suppose accepting that might also be the Image, if she won't eat something take it back and try something else.

This could be an example of the Image in a situation that's not ideal. Far from it. But ideal in the sense that it's the best that can be done under the circumstances.

I'm sure the oracle/judgement has something to tell me, too, but I have no idea what. Also I haven't actually tried shopping yet since we still have food. This was a preparatory reading.

 

[Liselle]

Or that I'm not explaining it well, and we should ask Hilary sometime. I mean, the idea that the Daxiang is a model of ideal behavior for a noble young one (junzi) is the entire point of it, as far as I know, and this originated not with Hilary but with the Daxiang's author(s). Hilary could explain it, though, no doubt.

As for exactly what Mary meant when she contrasted "the hexagram's oracle" with "the hexagram's image" - she'll have to tell us. I thought she meant the Daxiang, you think she meant the 6-line gua (as a whole and as trigrams) if I understand you correctly. I see how it could be either, but I don't know which she meant.

 

[Liselle]

Here Hilary says this (underlining is mine, again):

In the Yijing itself, there are actually two distinct versions of the junzi: the one in the original Zhouyi text, and the one in the Daxiang, the Image, who epitomises the best response to the energies of the component trigrams.

and

Almost all the Image texts feature this noble one, with just a handful of exceptions. I believe she’s a development, and perhaps a simplification, of the noble one in the Zhouyi.

Not that that settles anything, I was just fishing around.

 

[marybluesky]

An example:

Hexagram 6, Arguing

Key Questions

What are you arguing for?
If you can't win this one, what else can you do?

Oracle

'Arguing.
There is truth and confidence, blocked.
Vigilant and centred, good fortune. Ending, pitfall.
Fruitful to see great people,
Fruitless to cross the great river.'


You argue for what you need – for sustenance, or to be believed, or simply for justice – for you know in your bones that things are not as they should be. Yet no matter how deep and true your convictions, you find yourself frustrated, and your sense of being in resonance and connected with the world is choked off. It's important, now, to centre yourself in vigilance – in a heart open and alert to all the potentials for change, so you stay poised and capable of responsive movement in any direction. To freeze into a combative, defiant posture, holding onto your sense of wrongness to the bitter end, would not resolve conflict but only establish it in perpetuity. When frustrated and blocked, you need to see great people – those whose higher perspective enables them to see beyond the argument to a larger truth. Perhaps you can find that shift in perspective within yourself; perhaps you need to consult with someone wiser, who is outside the conflict. Meanwhile, it's fruitless to commit yourself further to your position out of sheer defiance.

Image

'Heaven joins with stream, contradictory movements: Arguing.
A noble one, starting work, plans how to begin.'

Sequence

Arguing follows from Hexagram 5, Waiting:
'Drinking and eating naturally mean Arguing.'

 

[Liselle]

What I tried to do in my example above is expand a bit on this idea of 'the gua as a fusion of trigrams' by expanding on the trigrams' meanings.

I think those can be different things, though. The Image's author(s) took the trigrams and did one particular thing with them, drew one particular kind of conclusion: what behavior does this model for a noble one.

There are many other interesting things that can be done with trigrams, but they're not the Daxiang, the Image, and the Image isn't them.

But regardless of all that, the best thing might be to try using the Images (and maybe the imagery too) in your readings and see how useful it is for you.

Yes, that will always be true, but it can still be helpful to talk about general concepts.