Part 2: Certain spiritual commentary feels like gaslighting - 20 unchanging

[foxx777]

I decided to make a part 2 to my question about a new I Ching with commentary I bought, to be more specific. I realized what was bothering me was that certain spiritual ideas are set forth which are so counter-intuitive that they feel like new age gobbledegook or gaslighting techniques intent on making one doubt one’s own thoughts and experience. This is a very condensed and simplified list:

1. The ego is always false. I believe an incorrect ego is false, but a generous and liberal and open ego is an asset. It is healthy to have a sense of self and boundaries, to have genuine desires and aspirations.

2. To call some things/people ‘good’ and others ‘evil’ is false. Again, while we as fallible human beings are often wrong in our assessments of who/what is good or evil there are in fact certain actions and people who are one or the other.

3. The cosmos corrects people who are prideful and arrogant and aids the good and earnest. I’ve seen such karmic or poetic justice but all too often I’ve seen the arrogant win out for decades and the good and earnest beset with horrendous and undeserved catastrophe .

4. Disease and disability are brought about from a wrong stance toward the cosmos. Yes, this is why Bernie Sanders had a heart attack and not Trump.

5. We will always have everything we need. The child beaten to death by parents, the freezing homeless, the wrongly convicted tortured in prison. Yep.

Is 20 unchanging asking me to examine in a reverential way and to be more trusting that I’m NOT being gaslighted (made to doubt my own mind and common sense)???


Hexagram 20 ( no changing lines)

Legge: Contemplation shows us a worshipper who has purified himself, but must still present his sacrifice with that dignified sincerity which inspires reverence.

Wilhelm/Baynes: Contemplation . The ablution has been made, but not yet the offering. Full of trust they look up to him.

 

[Trojina]

You don't say what the question was ?

This book sounds like it belongs in the trash quite frankly.

There's always been a side to new age ideas that's incredibly judgemental and right wing and the reason for that is they place absolutely everything upon the individual without taking social conditions into account. So woweee we all create our own destiny and that little girl being sold for sex well she 'created' that did she ? It can be simplistic beyond belief.

They, I mean some new age writers, have woefully misappropriated the concept of karma which is beyond human knowledge, not for them to decide why what happened to who, they don't know. There's also much garbage in some Yi books about the 'ego'. The ego is actually the self we use to interface between our unconscious and the outer world. Without egos we wouldn't be people.

I think the 20 shows what you are doing, looking, seeing, reflecting upon why this book is so offensive to you.

And of course we do to a degree create our own reality, it's not that there's no truth in that but there's so much we don't know about why people have the lives they have it is an act of the crassest ignorance to say so smugly that disease and disability are die to a 'wrong stance to the universe'.

I think one has to be very careful in how these kinds of ideas are verbalised because they can be both simplistic and brutal. And the problem is again it is not as if there were no truth at all to making connections to behaviour and disease, I posted a video in open space about that and I think the speaker put over his thoughts most sensitively because he's intelligent and his work is to help people. I do not think the author of your book is very intelligent quite frankly and when new age ideas get jumbled up with a bit of eastern mysticism, a bit of Buddhism, a bit of a hotch potch that the writer doesn't have the mental capacity to discern which from what...you get books like this.

 

[foxx777]

You don't say what the question was ?

This book sounds like it belongs in the trash quite frankly.

There's always been a side to new age ideas that's incredibly judgemental and right wing and the reason for that is they place absolutely everything upon the individual without taking social conditions into account. So woweee we all create our own destiny and that little girl being sold for sex well she 'created' that did she ? It can be simplistic beyond belief.

They, I mean some new age writers, have woefully misappropriated the concept of karma which is beyond human knowledge, not for them to decide why what happened to who, they don't know. There's also much garbage in some Yi books about the 'ego'. The ego is actually the self we use to interface between our unconscious and the outer world. Without egos we wouldn't be people.

I think the 20 shows what you are doing, looking, seeing, reflecting upon why this book is so offensive to you.

And of course we do to a degree create our own reality, it's not that there's no truth in that but there's so much we don't know about why people have the lives they have it is an act of the crassest ignorance to say so smugly that disease and disability are die to a 'wrong stance to the universe'.

I think one has to be very careful in how these kinds of ideas are verbalised because they can be both simplistic and brutal. And the problem is again it is not as if there were no truth at all to making connections to behaviour and disease, I posted a video in open space about that and I think the speaker put over his thoughts most sensitively because he's intelligent and his work is to help people. I do not think the author of your book is very intelligent quite frankly and when new age ideas get jumbled up with a bit of eastern mysticism, a bit of Buddhism, a bit of a hotch potch that the writer doesn't have the mental capacity to discern which from what...you get books like this.

I guess my question was more or less am I correct in feeling gaslighted by this text?
Thanks so much for your remarks, and it’s very validating to me that you said it sounded right wing, because part of what was infuriating to me was that it seemed to justify the oppression of the vulnerable which fits is so well with much right wing ideology.

I’m also glad that you recognize that the ego makes us human; I’ll always be grateful to William James for saying that if the ego is petty and mean spirited and vicious, then by all means curb it; but if the ego is generous and kind and receptive then give it it’s due.

I also have seen in my own life and in others’ that psyche and behavior can put health at risk, and you were correct in saying that the mysticism and generality of the statement were the problem.

Again, much thanks for your input.

 

[Freedda]

Foxx, it is interesting to me why you are ruminating so much over this book? I'd say if you find that much objectionable or un-useful about it that you should just set it aside (or take more drastic steps if you want).

From what you wrote above, the author seems to be going very far afield from what the Yi is saying. I want my Yi to be the Yi, not what someone else thinks it should be. (I can take a bit of 'slant' but I can pretty quickly pick up on when this is not working for me.)

On the other hand, if you find this kind of rumination useful or insightful, who am I to say otherwise? But it makes me wonder, is there another underlying or deeper motivation or reason for your rumination? Perhapas that you're trying to understand just what it is you find objectionable, which it seems you've hit upon. (Just wondering.)

All that said, there are sooo many Yi versions and interpretations out there, and quite a few are quite far-afield than what I think the Yi is trying to convey to us.

And it seems to that quite a lot of them are trying to do our thinking and our image-making for us (and quite a few leave out the imagery altogther, which is just wrong!); and those are short-cuts I just don't think we should take - however much a version might even agree with our own world view.

After all - and I've said this in a number of recent threads - its not the Yi's job to fit our world views, or our political views (good god no!), or spiritual views, or psycological views of things or of how the world works. It is there to convey it's own text and imagery, which we can then interpret in our own way.

Best, D.

 

[foxx777]

Foxx, it is interesting to me why you are ruminating so much over this book? I'd say if you find that much objectionable or un-useful about it that you should just set it aside (or take more drastic steps if you want).

From what you wrote above, the author seems to be going very far afield from what the Yi is saying. I want my Yi to be the Yi, not what someone else thinks it should be. (I can take a bit of 'slant' but I can pretty quickly pick up on when this is not working for me.)

On the other hand, if you find this kind of rumination useful or insightful, who am I to say otherwise? But it makes me wonder, is there another underlying or deeper motivation or reason for your rumination? Perhapas that you're trying to understand just what it is you find objectionable, which it seems you've hit upon. (Just wondering.)

All that said, there are sooo many Yi versions and interpretations out there, and quite a few are quite far-afield than what I think the Yi is trying to convey to us.

And it seems to that quite a lot of them are trying to do our thinking and our image-making for us (and quite a few leave out the imagery altogther, which is just wrong!); and those are short-cuts I just don't think we should take - however much a version might even agree with our own world view.

After all - and I've said this in a number of recent threads - its not the Yi's job to fit our world views, or our political views (good god no!), or spiritual views, or psycological views of things or of how the world works. It is there to convey it's own text and imagery, which we can then interpret in our own way.

Best, D.

Thanks so much for the feedback, and you’re very perceptive to notice that I’m ruminating endlessly rather than simply putting it aside. I do in fact have a history of doing this kind of thing to my own detriment (for example if a friend or family member has pushed some political or religious viewpoint which I find obnoxious, I will argue back and forth via email or phone for days, making myself extremely ill, whereas other people would simply have cut further contact as soon as things got disrespectful).

I think it’s a combination of some flaw in my nature which I should master, and a history of being in weak positions where I have had to put up with conditions that a strongly placed person would refuse to tolerate. I also think I have some paranoia that the universe or god or Yi will in the end force me to accept what for me is horrendous and wrong.
Cheers

 

[Freedda]

I guess my question was more or less am I correct in feeling gaslighted by this text?

I wrote a longer response to your post, but regarding just this 'gaslighting' issue (I have never heard of this term before now, and I just looked up it's interesting origin)

... I think that the Yi oftens challenge our approach or ways of thinking - and just as often it also point to more simple and obvious answers - but all that is quite different than being manipulated by someone.

For example, a few years ago the Yi 'advised' me (as I understood it) to have a more open and accepting attitude towards someone at work, even when I felt they might be criticising me (and quite frankly, I was being pretty hard and stubborn towards them!). This was certainly a challenge to my usual way of approaching and dealing with this person, but it never felt like a manipulation or even a criticism of myself or this other person, it was more like .... 'hmmm, you might try approaching this situation ... this (other) way (and see what happens).'

But it wasn't any new-agey, 'it's all in your mind' or 'you make your own reality' or 'you need to change your relationship with the cosmos' or whatever other layers of BS people put on the Yi. And you know what, the advice worked! - but without all these other added, unncessary layers.

But the bigger issue here is that you feel - probably rightfully so - that you are being 'gaslighted' but somone's commentary, not challenged by the Yi's response. And those are very, very different things.

And again, if it doesn't work for you, set it, or toss it, aside, and view it as a lesson of sorting the real from the contrived, or as the Yi says, the warp from the waft.

Best, D.

 

[foxx777]

I wrote a longer response to your post, but regarding just this 'gaslighting' issue (I have never heard of this term before now, and I just looked up it's interesting origin)

... I think that the Yi oftens challenge our approach or ways of thinking - and just as often it also point to more simple and obvious answers - but all that is quite different than being manipulated by someone.

For example, a few years ago the Yi 'advised' me (as I understood it) to have a more open and accepting attitude towards someone at work, even when I felt they might be criticising me (and quite frankly, I was being pretty hard and stubborn towards them!). This was certainly a challenge to my usual way of approaching and dealing with this person, but it never felt like a manipulation or even a criticism of myself or this other person, it was more like .... 'hmmm, you might try approaching this situation ... this (other) way (and see what happens).'

But it wasn't any new-agey, 'it's all in your mind' or 'you make your own reality' or 'you need to change your relationship with the cosmos' or whatever other layers of BS people put on the Yi. And you know what, the advice worked! - but without all these other added, unncessary layers.

But the bigger issue here is that you feel - probably rightfully so - that you are being 'gaslighted' but somone's commentary, not challenged by the Yi's response. And those are very, very different things.

And again, if it doesn't work for you, set it, or toss it, aside, and view it as a lesson of sorting the real from the contrived, or as the Yi says, the warp from the waft.

Best, D.

I’ve responded to your other, and sorry for not having explained the gaslighting term, guess through various forums regarding family problems I’ve gotten too used to it.

Yes, that’s an extremely important distinction. I agree with you fully: I can accept as at times we all must, that I must be less rigid and more receptive regarding a person, an idea, etc.

However as you note it’s another thing altogether to be forced to swallow bad new age mantras which jar the soul ( for example after my husband’s tragic and early death, a well meaning new age friend tried to force feed me: everything is perfectly timed, no one dies without their consent, you were supposed to be a widow at 45, etc. and it simply made me feel robbed of my right to grieve.)

 

[Freedda]

Thanks so much for the feedback, and you’re very perceptive to notice that I’m ruminating endlessly rather than simply putting it aside. I do in fact have a history of doing this kind of thing to my own detriment ....

What can I say? Welcome to the monkey house!

I often like to think that as more open and sensititve beings we naturally want to make room to hear what others are thinking and to understand their side. And I can certainly see how this can be a 'virtue' in these most troubled, divisive times. But it also might be that I just don't know how to always set boundaries! I am way better at it however.

D.

 

[moss elk]

regarding just this 'gaslighting' issue (I have never heard of this term before now, and I just looked up it's interesting origin)

If you look closely at the orange-skinned-man and his closest allies, you'll see that they are exactly gaslighting. Everything they are accused of, they immediately accuse their critics of doing that very same thing, it's absolute deflection, dizzying fast talk.
(It is an advanced version of the schoolyard retort, "I'm rubber and you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.")
It is a kind of hypnotism that works on the weak minded.

Then there is the movie:

Gaslight (1944 film) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Freedda]

However as you note it’s another thing altogether to be forced to swallow bad new age mantras which jars the soul ....

Most definately! I have a friend whose son is dating another man. This boyfriend often goes on about people 'creating their own realities,' even including victims of war or oppression and so forth. But what is most interesting - and telling! - is that this person is severely depressed, lives almost like a shut-in, and often misses family holidays and social functions because of this. I'm not saying everyone is like this, but people often don't walk their talk.

But back to the book... you lilely know what to do. D.

 

[foxx777]

Most definately! I have a friend whose son is dating another man. This boyfriend often goes on about people 'creating their own realities,' even including victims of war or oppression and so forth. But what is most interesting - and telling! - is that this person is severely depressed, lives almost like a shut-in, and often misses family holidays and social functions because of this. I'm not saying everyone is like this, but people often don't walk their talk.

But back to the book... you lilely know what to do. D.

Yes, that’s a very telling illustration and I’ve know someone who is very similar: talks all about creating reality and perfect timing yet drinks and is depressed. They are nonbelievers willing themselves to believe.

 

[foxx777]

If you look closely at the orange-skinned-man and his closest allies, you'll see that they are exactly gaslighting. Everything they are accused of, they immediately accuse their critics of doing that very same thing, it's absolute deflection, dizzying fast talk.

Yes, it’s the technique and modus operandi of those who are manipulative and devious in their relating. Small wonder that Trump should use gaslighting as one of his tricks.

 

[heatwave]

It's really late for me and I'm tired but I did have some thoughts on your comments I wanted to share!

1. The ego is always false. I believe an incorrect ego is false, but a generous and liberal and open ego is an asset. It is healthy to have a sense of self and boundaries, to have genuine desires and aspirations.

The ego is a house of cards just like your beliefs, "genuine" desires, aspirations, and sense of self. It wouldn't take much to bowl those over. What is an "incorrect" ego? The definitions of ego that I am familiar with are related to the experience as a separate being rather than your oneness with all things. You're the drop in the ocean but you don't Know (internal resonance rather than intellectual) you're also the ocean sort of thing. The drop cannot be disconnected from the ocean no matter what it understands, believes, or values. This is the case with all things. So the ego is always false, because it's existence is based on a separateness that doesn't actually exist. The consciousness/life/force that animates you and all things does so without your ego. You can experience that yourself through meditation or any activity that puts you in that flow state.

--------

Two parables came to mind reading your questions that also feel how I experience hex 20, which is something like Vipassana meditation which is observation-based and about self-exploration. I thought it might be nice to share them in the context of 20. The first is from David Foster Wallace's commencement address:

There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says, “Morning, boys. How’s the water?” And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes, “What the hell is water?”

The point of the fish story is merely that the most obvious, important realities are often the ones that are hardest to see and talk about....The fact is that in the day to day trenches of adult existence, banal platitudes can have a life or death importance.

The capital-T Truth is about life BEFORE death. It is about the real value of a real education, which has almost nothing to do with knowledge, and everything to do with simple awareness; awareness of what is so real and essential, so hidden in plain sight all around us, all the time, that we have to keep reminding ourselves over and over:
This is water.
This is water.

The other is the parable of the Chinese farmer.

Once there was a Chinese farmer who worked his poor farm together with his son and their horse. When the horse ran off one day, neighbors came to say, “How unfortunate for you!” The farmer replied, “Maybe yes, maybe no.”When the horse returned, followed by a herd of wild horses, the neighbors gathered around and exclaimed, “What good luck for you!”

The farmer stayed calm and replied, “Maybe yes, maybe no.”While trying to tame one of wild horses, the farmer’s son fell, and broke his leg. He had to rest up and couldn’t help with the farm chores. “How sad for you,” the neighbors cried. “Maybe yes, maybe no,” said the farmer.

Shortly thereafter, a neighboring army threatened the farmer’s village. All the young men in the village were drafted to fight the invaders. Many died. But the farmer’s son had been left out of the fighting because of his broken leg. People said to the farmer, “What a good thing your son couldn’t fight!” “Maybe yes, maybe no,” was all the farmer said.

Not sure if you also see the value I see in these, but there you are.

5. We will always have everything we need. The child beaten to death by parents, the freezing homeless, the wrongly convicted tortured in prison. Yep.

I cannot imagine the horrific experiences of so many people, but many people have had the experience of being spiritually enlightened in the exact situations you describe. Many others live their whole lives and die in relative comfort without ever becoming self-aware. I don't know exactly what I'm getting at here other than it depends on what you understand your needs to be. Maybe books like this are saying that you always have everything you need to become enlightened/awake. Even if you don't have food, shelter, safety, or freedom.

I have no clue what book you're reading so maybe take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

 

[Lavalamp]

Well ... Rant alert.
When people talk about karma, it's often not about how the the universe actually functions, but because of a heart seeking vengeance. People want the other person to suffer as they have suffered. Or more often, suffer never endingly and way more than you have! From this perspective "An eye for an eye" is enlightened, because it introduces the concept of limited liability. You don't get to demand more than your actual damages. And the state becomes the arbiter and dispenser of justice, so society does not become chaos. But the problem with the vengeance model of justice is it rarely changes anybody, and usually just creates a cycle of violent vengeance seeking. Criminals seek retribution, just like everyone else.

But Grace trumps karma. Forgiveness actually changes people. The Universe does not itself require people suffer exactly as they have caused others suffering. It is People that do that. People can also change that, with forgiveness. You can forgive people their debts. That can break the cycle of violence. That's Dr. King's six principles of non-violence, if you bear undeserved suffering yourself, you can change the person that is lost. As Dr. King says, there is tremendous redemptive power in suffering. And the purpose is to create an inclusive community of love.

In the US, we have the vengeance model of criminal justice. People often feel quite happy and righteous saying they hope someone rots in hell. The recidivism rate is about 70%. In other places, like Norway, where the longest sentence for first degree murder is 21 years and almost no one does more than 14, they have the restorative model of justice. They say you can't teach respect without showing the offender what it looks like, and they haven't experienced it. The recidivism rate is 30% there. Neither is perfect in changing people, but the model that focuses on fixing people, rather than just hurting them as payback works far better.

Anyway, the whole concept of karma is a trap. In India, if you think someone is in their low caste because of their karma - there is little social justice. Things are as unequal as they are because of karma! It's your own fault when bad things happen to you, as the idea was often applied.
Conversely Jesus said The rain falls on the just and on the unjust. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. Asked if a tower fell on a man because of his sins, or his Father's sins, Jesus said - Neither. But worse things will happen to you if you think that way!
We create our own reality sometimes by how we think.

- LL

 

[my_key]

I guess my question was more or less am I correct in feeling gaslighted by this text? Hex 20 - unchanging

Is 20 unchanging asking me to examine in a reverential way and to be more trusting that I’m NOT being gaslighted (made to doubt my own mind and common sense)???

Hi Foxx777

From what you have written it seems that gaslighting has been a big thing in your life. Being robbed of your power by others is a terrible thing to contend with at the time and fills the head and heart with unpleasant memories and associations that remain for a long time. Maybe the words in the text or the way the commentary has been written reminds you of some of these things that have happened in the past and have triggered in you reoccurances of self doubt. It could even be a bit of a double whammy - being hit by what the past and the present are laying out for you at the same time. It can be useful to remember that what happened in the there and then doesn't have to be the same as, or rule, what is happening in the here and now. This is where trust can have a major role to play.

To answer your question in 2 parts. First I'd say yes you are feeling gaslighted by this text. Then part 2 - Are you correct in feeling gaslighted by this text? Only you will know if this is a correct/ proper/right way for you to feel. Does it feel correct for you?

This is where Hex 20 steps in, it asks for things to be seen and to be seen in a wider perspective, while at the same time offering you an opportunity to review, explore and contemplate until things start to feel correct or start to make sense. It is not always a pain-free process and can be seen as a bit of a cleansing . If that process includes 'endless rumination' for you then you go for it: endlessly ruminate to the very best of your ability ....... and maybe, if you can, be a bit curious during your ruminations as to what stops you from stopping ruminating. The sequence of Hex 19 to 20 indicates that you are in a position to see things in ways that have been hidden to you before and that at the root, working away behind the scenes of Hex 20 is Hex 23, stripping away old ideas and making things more beautiful.

....and of course, it may not mean any of these things.

Good Luck

 

[foxx777]

It's really late for me and I'm tired but I did have some thoughts on your comments I wanted to share!



The ego is a house of cards just like your beliefs, "genuine" desires, aspirations, and sense of self. It wouldn't take much to bowl those over. What is an "incorrect" ego? The definitions of ego that I am familiar with are related to the experience as a separate being rather than your oneness with all things. You're the drop in the ocean but you don't Know (internal resonance rather than intellectual) you're also the ocean sort of thing. The drop cannot be disconnected from the ocean no matter what it understands, believes, or values. This is the case with all things. So the ego is always false, because it's existence is based on a separateness that doesn't actually exist. The consciousness/life/force that animates you and all things does so without your ego. You can experience that yourself through meditation or any activity that puts you in that flow state.

--------

Two parables came to mind reading your questions that also feel how I experience hex 20, which is something like Vipassana meditation which is observation-based and about self-exploration. I thought it might be nice to share them in the context of 20. The first is from David Foster Wallace's commencement address:

There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says, “Morning, boys. How’s the water?” And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes, “What the hell is water?”

The point of the fish story is merely that the most obvious, important realities are often the ones that are hardest to see and talk about....The fact is that in the day to day trenches of adult existence, banal platitudes can have a life or death importance.

The capital-T Truth is about life BEFORE death. It is about the real value of a real education, which has almost nothing to do with knowledge, and everything to do with simple awareness; awareness of what is so real and essential, so hidden in plain sight all around us, all the time, that we have to keep reminding ourselves over and over:
This is water.
This is water.

The other is the parable of the Chinese farmer.

Once there was a Chinese farmer who worked his poor farm together with his son and their horse. When the horse ran off one day, neighbors came to say, “How unfortunate for you!” The farmer replied, “Maybe yes, maybe no.”When the horse returned, followed by a herd of wild horses, the neighbors gathered around and exclaimed, “What good luck for you!”

The farmer stayed calm and replied, “Maybe yes, maybe no.”While trying to tame one of wild horses, the farmer’s son fell, and broke his leg. He had to rest up and couldn’t help with the farm chores. “How sad for you,” the neighbors cried. “Maybe yes, maybe no,” said the farmer.

Shortly thereafter, a neighboring army threatened the farmer’s village. All the young men in the village were drafted to fight the invaders. Many died. But the farmer’s son had been left out of the fighting because of his broken leg. People said to the farmer, “What a good thing your son couldn’t fight!” “Maybe yes, maybe no,” was all the farmer said.

Not sure if you also see the value I see in these, but there you are.



I cannot imagine the horrific experiences of so many people, but many people have had the experience of being spiritually enlightened in the exact situations you describe. Many others live their whole lives and die in relative comfort without ever becoming self-aware. I don't know exactly what I'm getting at here other than it depends on what you understand your needs to be. Maybe books like this are saying that you always have everything you need to become enlightened/awake. Even if you don't have food, shelter, safety, or freedom.

I have no clue what book you're reading so maybe take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

Thank you for these enlightening words and parables which I can really appreciate.

The only issue I have with ego being false and oneness with all things is that it’s abstract. Anyone who has had to overcome severe trauma/abuse and the psychological fallout that ensues can attest to the importance of building up a healthy ego with firm boundaries.

Would we tell a beloved child, grandchild or niece or nephew not to go to college or have dreams because such aspirations arise from the false ego? Wouldn’t most human beings pick a happy and balanced life over enlightenment (if it came down to happy marriage, rewarding career, nice home, good relationships, culture and travel vs brutal poverty with enlightenment?)

The beauty of nature and music etc. can evoke the feeling of oneness of all things but at a certain level this isn’t true. Why have the pedophile stand trial if he and his victims are one? I can’t abide by ideas which aren’t true in everyday life. The idea of enlightenment in the midst of peril I can endorse, yet still believe people have a right to decent conditions.

 

[foxx777]

I guess my question was more or less am I correct in feeling gaslighted by this text? Hex 20 - unchanging

Is 20 unchanging asking me to examine in a reverential way and to be more trusting that I’m NOT being gaslighted (made to doubt my own mind and common sense)???

Hi Foxx777

From what you have written it seems that gaslighting has been a big thing in your life. Being robbed of your power by others is a terrible thing to contend with at the time and fills the head and heart with unpleasant memories and associations that remain for a long time. Maybe the words in the text or the way the commentary has been written reminds you of some of these things that have happened in the past and have triggered in you reoccurances of self doubt. It could even be a bit of a double whammy - being hit by what the past and the present are laying out for you at the same time. It can be useful to remember that what happened in the there and then doesn't have to be the same as, or rule, what is happening in the here and now. This is where trust can have a major role to play.

To answer your question in 2 parts. First I'd say yes you are feeling gaslighted by this text. Then part 2 - Are you correct in feeling gaslighted by this text? Only you will know if this is a correct/ proper/right way for you to feel. Does it feel correct for you?

This is where Hex 20 steps in, it asks for things to be seen and to be seen in a wider perspective, while at the same time offering you an opportunity to review, explore and contemplate until things start to feel correct or start to make sense. It is not always a pain-free process and can be seen as a bit of a cleansing . If that process includes 'endless rumination' for you then you go for it: endlessly ruminate to the very best of your ability ....... and maybe, if you can, be a bit curious during your ruminations as to what stops you from stopping ruminating. The sequence of Hex 19 to 20 indicates that you are in a position to see things in ways that have been hidden to you before and that at the root, working away behind the scenes of Hex 20 is Hex 23, stripping away old ideas and making things more beautiful.

....and of course, it may not mean any of these things.

Good Luck

Thank you so much for your initial comments which I’ve boded above. It’s extremely healing when people recognize and validate that issue with me.

Your interpretations resonate with me and I thank you for them.

 

[foxx777]

Well ... Rant alert.
When people talk about karma, it's often not about how the the universe actually functions, but because of a heart seeking vengeance. People want the other person to suffer as they have suffered. Or more often, suffer never endingly and way more than you have! From this perspective "An eye for an eye" is enlightened, because it introduces the concept of limited liability. You don't get to demand more than your actual damages. And the state becomes the arbiter and dispenser of justice, so society does not become chaos. But the problem with the vengeance model of justice is it rarely changes anybody, and usually just creates a cycle of violent vengeance seeking. Criminals seek retribution, just like everyone else.

But Grace trumps karma. Forgiveness actually changes people. The Universe does not itself require people suffer exactly as they have caused others suffering. It is People that do that. People can also change that, with forgiveness. You can forgive people their debts. That can break the cycle of violence. That's Dr. King's six principles of non-violence, if you bear undeserved suffering yourself, you can change the person that is lost. As Dr. King says, there is tremendous redemptive power in suffering. And the purpose is to create an inclusive community of love.

In the US, we have the vengeance model of criminal justice. People often feel quite happy and righteous saying they hope someone rots in hell. The recidivism rate is about 70%. In other places, like Norway, where the longest sentence for first degree murder is 21 years and almost no one does more than 14, they have the restorative model of justice. They say you can't teach respect without showing the offender what it looks like, and they haven't experienced it. The recidivism rate is 30% there. Neither is perfect in changing people, but the model that focuses on fixing people, rather than just hurting them as payback works far better.

Anyway, the whole concept of karma is a trap. In India, if you think someone is in their low caste because of their karma - there is little social justice. Things are as unequal as they are because of karma! It's your own fault when bad things happen to you, as the idea was often applied.
Conversely Jesus said The rain falls on the just and on the unjust. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. Asked if a tower fell on a man because of his sins, or his Father's sins, Jesus said - Neither. But worse things will happen to you if you think that way!
We create our own reality sometimes by how we think.

- LL

Very interesting remarks and I can absolutely agree that obsession with karmic retribution is a grave psychological trap.

I am in complete agreement with your assessment of the US penal system and the ‘rot in hell’ remarks which come from victim statements. The passionate punitive stance is an incorrect one which makes the fight against evil become its own, even worse evil. The Norway model is certainly the more enlightened and the more healing one. If only the US would reverse its slide into barbarism in this regard!

 

[Lavalamp]

If only the US would reverse its slide into barbarism in this regard!

Actually finally we have had some criminal justice reform under this administration. The "First Step Act" let a lot of people out, long jailed for relatively minor non-violent offenses because of Bill Clinton's 1994 "3 Strikes And You're Out" Crime Bill. And with the "Second Chance Act" the Administration is working with employers to train and hire former prisoners to give them a second shot. Trump was very proud of all this and had many former prisoners in the White House in a huge love fest. Many never heard of this legislation, but coupled with the good economy and historically low black unemployment, he is getting rising support in the black community - which was impacted most.

- LL

 

[foxx777]

Actually finally we have had some criminal justice reform under this administration. The "First Step Act" let a lot of people out, long jailed for relatively minor non-violent offenses because of Bill Clinton's 1994 "3 Strikes And You're Out" Crime Bill. And with the "Second Chance Act" the Administration is working with employers to train and hire former prisoners to give them a second shot. Trump was very proud of all this and had many former prisoners in the White House in a huge love fest. Many never heard of this legislation, but coupled with the good economy and historically low black unemployment, he is getting rising support in the black community - which was impacted most.

- LL

Thank you; that’s very good to know.

 

[Lavalamp]

And as far as I can tell, 3-strikes laws are state laws, not federal. And for good or ill, many of them were passed in the 1990s, bipartisanly, in response to run-away drug and gang violence. They did not originate with Bill Clinton. (UPDATE - it is true that these laws did not originate with Bill Clinton, however a federal version of '3-strikes' - the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 - was enacted under his presidency.

Well Ok, the President - any President - gets the credit and the blame for Federal Legislation, and historically nothing can pass without support from both parties. The Black Community largely blames Clinton's 1994 Crime Bill for Mass Incarceration. And it took Federal legislation to change it, without Trump's support this would not have even gone to the Senate floor. If you want argue more reform is needed that is fine.
But as Van Jones, a Progressive that founded the Reform Alliance, The Ella Baker Center for Human Rights, Color of Change, Green for All and Rebuild the Dream said: "The conservative movement in this country, unfortunately from my point of view, is now the leader on this issue of reform... This is supposed to be my issue! You are stealing my issue!"
You have to give credit where credit is due or you can't get anything done, and you are substituting partisan sniping and talking points for an realpolitik view of the issue. Van Jones finally got someone to deal with this issue, Federally and also in the states, and he admits - to his chagrin - Democrats have not been willing to take the lead. And this is what you have to do if you put actually getting something done in front of partisan politics. As Bono did with AIDS in Africa and Third World Debt forgiveness, he made friends with Conservatives and because he did, it saved the lives of millions of people in Africa. Jesse Helms even said Bono taught him he had an UnChristian attitude towards gays. You do this if you care more about the issue than politics - or who gets credit.

As for Obama taking credit for Trump's recovery, a large part of the discussion is, over how long a period of time? Obama's eight year recovery was the slowest in history - actually slower than the years after the stock market crash of 1929 and the Great Depression - where in just two years the Trump administration created the best economy on the planet. Under Obama's recovery trajectory that would not now be the case. And much of the basis of the Obama recovery was in place when he himself took office, yet over his 8 years wages did not rise, only Wallstreet and the 1% did well and income inequality rose dramatically. The Middle class actually became a *minority*, millions went on food stamps, and unemployment hit extreme highs. The middle class was in despair as jobs continued to dry up, and they felt sold out by politicians in both parties.

But more to the point, there would have been no growth in the American economy at all from 2010 under Obama had it not been for _fracking._ The amount of Obama's recovery is almost exactly the amount of benefit the fracking for oil and natural gas revolution contributed to the economy. It saved Obama's butt - statistically, on paper - but the improved numbers masked the desperation of the American worker and the underlying anemic economy.
From 2014 - https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/how-fracking-has-saved-obama
Had Democrats not been tone deaf to the American Worker, despite how bad a candidate Hillary was, she could have won the 2016 election. But she took them for granted as a voting block, as Dems have blacks and other minorities, and could not hear - or simply wrote off - their despair and anger.

The largest beneficiary of the Trump economy has been people at the bottom. Wages have been rising at the fastest rate in 10 years for lower-skilled workers, and unemployment among less-educated Americans, and for Blacks, Hispanics and Asians are at the lowest levels in history. 50 year lows for women and unemployment overall. The Median income has risen $4000 to over $65,000 a year, NOT counting tax cuts. Manufacturing jobs have increased, something Obama said "would take a magic wand." And Wallstreet has increased by over 30%, unfair trade deals have been renegotiated, the economy has expanded, and we are now energy independent. America is now a net exporter of energy, and we cannot be blackmailed or pressured into foreign conflicts over oil.

As Clinton advisor James Carville once said "It's the economy stupid." It's about putting bread on the kitchen table.
To the American worker, competence is more important I think, than moral posturing that loudly plays the fiddle - while Rome burns.

So there is that.

- LL

 

[GreenHazel]

Hi Foxx

I'm familiar with the Gaslighting idea (as you can imagine) so the title of your thread was too interesting not to have a look...

I agree with all you say in your list and have the same "new-agey" red alarm most of the times, when I read similar things. Most of the times.

What I can offer you are two small ideas, if they could be useful:

1. I read the Image of Hex 20 and this is what is says:
Legge: The image of earth and wind moving above it form Contemplation. The ancient kings, in accordance with this, examined the different regions of the kingdom to see the ways of the people, and set forth their instructions.

How about the IC is telling you that your approach is being actually correct?
You are examining all possible interpretations and angles, and exploring different views (the "ways of people"), as the wind moves across all corners to form Contemplation. Only through this you'll be able to set guidelines ("instructions") for your self. In other words, this book could be useful as part of a wider view, if nothing else to see how certain "people" approach things in order to be able to disregard that approach.
I read somewhere that Hex 20 has the shape of a tower, so the Wider View could make sense.
What you think?


2. During these last 2 months, trying to understand the series of synchronicities and weird coincidences that brought me to the circumstances of my recent thread, I stumbled for the first time upon the concept of Twin Flames. A very new agey thing, which I would normally disregard alltogether.
There is a list of "signs" that you have actually met your Twin Flame; from significant age difference, to differences in culture of origins, to living in different places, to meeting in a place and in a time where you both had to be somewhere else, to one being in a different relationship ... I had them ALL!
Gaslighted is not enough. I feel like I've been literally brainwashed, as all my insecurities and loss of boundaries and rationality started after I allowed for a single week this Twin Flames idea to enter my consciousness.

All this to say: I hear you. I hear the fear of someone forcing your rational boundaries.
And not necessarily because they've been violated before. But because some perspectives and ideas are indeed dangerous, and your (very healthy) instincts are telling you so.

 

[foxx777]

Hi Foxx

I'm familiar with the Gaslighting idea (as you can imagine) so the title of your thread was too interesting not to have a look...

I agree with all you say in your list and have the same "new-agey" red alarm most of the times, when I read similar things. Most of the times.

What I can offer you are two small ideas, if they could be useful:

1. I read the Image of Hex 20 and this is what is says:
Legge: The image of earth and wind moving above it form Contemplation. The ancient kings, in accordance with this, examined the different regions of the kingdom to see the ways of the people, and set forth their instructions.

How about the IC is telling you that your approach is being actually correct?
You are examining all possible interpretations and angles, and exploring different views (the "ways of people"), as the wind moves across all corners to form Contemplation. Only through this you'll be able to set guidelines ("instructions") for your self. In other words, this book could be useful as part of a wider view, if nothing else to see how certain "people" approach things in order to be able to disregard that approach.
I read somewhere that Hex 20 has the shape of a tower, so the Wider View could make sense.
What you think?


2. During these last 2 months, trying to understand the series of synchronicities and weird coincidences that brought me to the circumstances of my recent thread, I stumbled for the first time upon the concept of Twin Flames. A very new agey thing, which I would normally disregard alltogether.
There is a list of "signs" that you have actually met your Twin Flame; from significant age difference, to differences in culture of origins, to living in different places, to meeting in a place and in a time where you both had to be somewhere else, to one being in a different relationship ... I had them ALL!
Gaslighted is not enough. I feel like I've been literally brainwashed, as all my insecurities and loss of boundaries and rationality started after I allowed for a single week this Twin Flames idea to enter my consciousness.

All this to say: I hear you. I hear the fear of someone forcing your rational boundaries.
And not necessarily because they've been violated before. But because some perspectives and ideas are indeed dangerous, and your (very healthy) instincts are telling you so.

*Thanks so much for your remarks and insights, GreenHazel. Your comments on Hexagram 20 are helpful and illuminating and can’t see why I missed this myself!

*As far as the Twin Flame idea, there is kind of a seductive truth in it as with so many of these concepts —-and the fact that it broke down your boundaries speaks loudly to the inherent danger in them as you state. It’s good that you have a strong center and are able to reject something which is engulfing you.

*That said, I wonder if these “truths” might still be incorporated IF we are able to maintain a rational and critical perspective while using what good qualities these concepts might have? I say this only because my own life has seemed to be a tightrope walk between rational thinking and being pulled into such ideas. Sometimes a synthesis would be the end result which actually was robust and healthy so long as I was careful to reject anything that was too “mystical”. In any case: It’s a very tricky business. The I Ching is a useful tool in aiding us to strike a balance, I think. So glad you’ve found this forum to be of help!

*ADDENDUM: Just looked up Twin Flame and for what it’s worth I believe I married mine ( in another thread I remark about this. Can’t find my comments now, was just looking. *** [EDIT: Just found them and will post at the very end of this post.]***
The relationship began extremely problematically, he was with someone else, etc. We were married for 21 years until his early death at age 53. We had a son together. It began with me recognizing him as my “twin flame” and him as he later told me fighting this recognition until a later time where he felt it intensely. The love he felt for his first girlfriend who he was with when I met him he later renounced as obsessive and false..... I still love him. I certainly don’t recommend this path for anyone and the relationship was far from easy, but it had great depth and quality ):

Your twin flame is a mirror of what you fear and simultaneously desire the most for your own inner healing. For example, if you are a highly-strung person, your twin flame will most likely be relaxed and messy. If you like to play the victim, your twin flame will be a strong character who refuses to give you pity or sympathy to perpetuate your complex. If you are creatively repressed, your twin flame will be a flourishing artist. In this way, our twin flames challenge and infuriate us but also teach us important lessons about our fears, core wounds, and repressions.

Your childhoods were polar opposite. You were raised in very different ways, which led to the development of opposite childhood wounds that you now have the opportunity to mend.

One of you is more soulfully mature than the other and often serves as the teacher, counselor or confidant within the relationship.

***COMMENTS FROM 9/21/19:

My interpretation is similar to diamandaone’s. However, and take this for what it’s worth, the relationship I had in my early 20s where he had a girlfriend and was basically stringing me along for sex (which I tried to deny at that young age) wound up with him marrying me. We were married for 21 years up until his death at age 53, and we had an adored son together, who is now 31. He was an excellent father to him. We were soulmates and were loving and devoted to each other and had beautiful times and trips together, the memories of which I still cherish. There is a line in Yi that reads, there has been no beginning but there will be an ample end. That’s how I view my relationship to this man, which began really, really horribly. So you never know. He had been in love with his girlfriend and was more or less using me (which in later years he apologized for). When she left him, he got to know me better and realized he had misjudged me, and fell in love with me. I sure don’t recommend this as a way to meet your husband, but......Just thought I’d add as grist for the mill.

 

[Trojina]

Came across this last night reminded me of this thread, go to around 3.30. For some reason I like watching her videos on channelling people like Amy Winehouse and so on and I don't feel she's a bull shitter. I know many will think she is but I just don't. I like at the end how she says how useless it is to be comparing yourswelf to others your age, that there is much in your life you don't control because we are lving the life we are given, all options aren't open. People often say 'this always happens to me whatever I do' and I think there are aspects of our lives that aren't down to us. I do think it seems we manifest at times or else it is given. Countless times i wish I had some object, then I forget about it and then it is given to me or I find it, things like that. Doesn't seem to work with money in the same way for me but it does for some people but that could be because my path, some of which is given, is not theirs.

 

[Freedda]

you are substituting partisan sniping and talking points for an realpolitik view of the issue.

.... And both of us are highjacking this thread for our political ramblings, and I for one am going to stop .... and even remove my post in that vein.

 

[GreenHazel]

Foxx,

I'm really grateful that you have shared your story with me. It sounds like an amazing love story, and I can't even begin to imagine how hard it must have been and must be being without him.

The comments that you have added certainly make me think. Life sometimes should be just lived, huh?
Or, perhaps we should all behave more like in our 20s
Perhaps we'll have the chance to talk more about this, as your story really resonates with me, for many reasons.

*That said, I wonder if these “truths” might still be incorporated IF we are able to maintain a rational and critical perspective while using what good qualities these concepts might have? I say this only because my own life has seemed to be a tightrope walk between rational thinking and being pulled into such ideas.

I hear you again. I know what you mean. I think we are all ready for living closer to our soul, still... it's so difficult.

I'm an INFJ by MBTI, which make more or less 1% of world population, not only that, is the most misunderstood personalities of all. People normally don't get me. I'm very used to it.
Once every 10 years (and here the IC has been literal again. sigh.) another unicorn like me crosses my path. It's like we can spot each other in a forest of people. The temptation to surrender all rationality, boundary and plain common sense to keep this incredible connection is much, much more than simply flying high on dopamine during any love-bombing phase.

Still I wanted to do exactly as you say, perhaps not to be swept completely away; and in the whole Twin Flames madness, I isolated two concepts that I felt were already mine, somehow.
The idea of love as a tool of evolution.
The idea of unconditional love.

Have I been able to live them? No, of course. Not because they are not valid, but because I'm realizing they are just ideas, and life is much messier and dirtier and crazier; life is your husband falling deeply in love with you almost by accident after a relationship that perhaps was not exactly unconditional love. Life is me giving a very spiritual speech to my guy about friendship and then taking his head in my hands and kissing him passionately. Life is your endless ruminations and writing a chain of back and forth e-mails until Contemplation feels complete. Or changing my mind every two minutes and feeling alternatively very wise and strong and utterly hopeless without him.

Do I know any better, after the Twin Flames madness? Am I really so wise to label all this as brainwashing and turning the page, like I'm doing, or I have just lost something very, very special?
Am I wiser? Am I stronger?
I don't know, Foxx. Perhaps what's making us stronger is just keeping making mistakes.
Like your "mistake" that turned out to be 21 years of difficult, wonderful love.

I'm not sure I'll preview this otherwise I will lose the courage to post it. I just hope that it still has some distant connection with the thread.

 

[foxx777]

Foxx,

I'm really grateful that you have shared your story with me. It sounds like an amazing love story, and I can't even begin to imagine how hard it must have been and must be being without him.

The comments that you have added certainly make me think. Life sometimes should be just lived, huh?
Or, perhaps we should all behave more like in our 20s
Perhaps we'll have the chance to talk more about this, as your story really resonates with me, for many reasons.



I hear you again. I know what you mean. I think we are all ready for living closer to our soul, still... it's so difficult.

I'm an INFJ by MBTI, which make more or less 1% of world population, not only that, is the most misunderstood personalities of all. People normally don't get me. I'm very used to it.
Once every 10 years (and here the IC has been literal again. sigh.) another unicorn like me crosses my path. It's like we can spot each other in a forest of people. The temptation to surrender all rationality, boundary and plain common sense to keep this incredible connection is much, much more than simply flying high on dopamine during any love-bombing phase.

Still I wanted to do exactly as you say, perhaps not to be swept completely away; and in the whole Twin Flames madness, I isolated two concepts that I felt were already mine, somehow.
The idea of love as a tool of evolution.
The idea of unconditional love.

Have I been able to live them? No, of course. Not because they are not valid, but because I'm realizing they are just ideas, and life is much messier and dirtier and crazier; life is your husband falling deeply in love with you almost by accident after a relationship that perhaps was not exactly unconditional love. Life is me giving a very spiritual speech to my guy about friendship and then taking his head in my hands and kissing him passionately. Life is your endless ruminations and writing a chain of back and forth e-mails until Contemplation feels complete. Or changing my mind every two minutes and feeling alternatively very wise and strong and utterly hopeless without him.

Do I know any better, after the Twin Flames madness? Am I really so wise to label all this as brainwashing and turning the page, like I'm doing, or I have just lost something very, very special?
Am I wiser? Am I stronger?
I don't know, Foxx. Perhaps what's making us stronger is just keeping making mistakes.
Like your "mistake" that turned out to be 21 years of difficult, wonderful love.

I'm not sure I'll preview this otherwise I will lose the courage to post it. I just hope that it still has some distant connection with the thread.

Absolutely, it’s a very connected response to my post and it’s greatly appreciated. I found much of what you said touching. Please don’t regret any of it.

As I said I’d be the last person to recommend that anyone throw caution and logic to the four winds and get submerged in some of the situations I have, and I’m glad you’re able to understand that I’m only trying to point out that sometimes, to quote the I Ching, although there has been no beginning there will be an ample end. (Lest I sound like I’m idealizing my marriage I’ll confess that whenever we argued - one doozy occurred on our honeymoon in Paris - I would in fact rant and throw up to him just how dreadful our beginning had been.)

I do still believe however from all I know about your situation that you were wise to put the brakes on and leave him to contemplate and perhaps resurface one day as a single Dad? There’s a hope for that, as well as a hope that another INFJ - or a good match for one - is out there waiting for you.
Cheers
Addendum: Don’t ever give up on your concepts of love ❤ as a tool of evolution and unconditional love.

 

[moss elk]

I'm an INFJ by MBTI, which make more or less 1% of world population, not only that, is the most misunderstood personalities of all.

I seem to recall that a majority of the people here at clarity who responded, are INFJ and INTJ, according to a brief poll in a thread:

Where are you lot on the Myers Briggs Type Indicator?!

Here's a link to an online version of the test if you havent taken it already http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp i think t'would be interesting to see where we fall, as a community of i chingers! I'm an INFP. I wager there's gotta be a load of INFP's in here. all bets taken...

www.onlineclarity.co.uk

 

[GreenHazel]

Absolutely, it’s a very connected response to my post and it’s greatly appreciated. I found much of what you said touching. Please don’t regret any of it.

As I said I’d be the last person to recommend that anyone throw caution and logic to the four winds and get submerged in some of the situations I have, and I’m glad you’re able to understand that I’m only trying to point out that sometimes, to quote the I Ching, although there has been no beginning there will be an ample end. (Lest I sound like I’m idealizing my marriage I’ll confess that whenever we argued - one doozy occurred on our honeymoon in Paris - I would in fact rant and throw up to him just how dreadful our beginning had been.)

I do still believe however from all I know about your situation that you were wise to put the brakes on and leave him to contemplate and perhaps resurface one day as a single Dad? There’s a hope for that, as well as a hope that another INFJ - or a good match for one - is out there waiting for you.
Cheers
Addendum: Don’t ever give up on your concepts of love ❤ as a tool of evolution and unconditional love.

Thank you, for all the encouragement, for keeping it real and positive, for all your honesty and for sharing.
It was really inspiring reading you. Now I'll stop spoiling other people's threads with my personal ruminations (as you can see I'm pretty good at it too!)

Your posts brought back some sanity in me, and made a very big difference in these last few days, Foxx.

* hugs you*

I seem to recall that a majority of the people here at clarity who responded, are INFJ and INTJ, according to a brief poll in a thread:

Where are you lot on the Myers Briggs Type Indicator?!

Here's a link to an online version of the test if you havent taken it already http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp i think t'would be interesting to see where we fall, as a community of i chingers! I'm an INFP. I wager there's gotta be a load of INFP's in here. all bets taken...

www.onlineclarity.co.uk

Aaaah ! Really??? This explains a few things!
Thank you for letting me know and for the link. I like this place even more now

 

[foxx777]

Your posts brought back some sanity in me, and made a very big difference in these last few days, Foxx.

* hugs you*