Qi Gong and the Yi Ching

[solun]

Recently I started doing some Qi Gong, which I hadn't done for a while. One of the exercises introduced was Taming the Tiger.
I thought of the hexagram 10 Conduct/Treading, which has been associated wiht this notion of taming a tiger, or strong force
As I practise this exercise, I will use this in meditation with it. It seems a good opportunity to perhaps help inform the practise some, or maybe shed light on the meaning og the gram.

Has anyone out there studied Qi Gong or Martilal arts as well, having insight into any connections with the imagery in the commentary on the hexagrams and the imagery invoked by the poses or exercises ....?
Or if you can direct me to any good sources...? I'd be beholden' to ya!

 

[jesed]

Very interesting!!
I can't be of any use for you; but I'd love to hear your future insights on it.

 

[pantherpanther]

Recently I started doing some Qi Gong, which I hadn't done for a while. One of the exercises introduced was Taming the Tiger.
I thought of the hexagram 10 Conduct/Treading, which has been associated wiht this notion of taming a tiger, or strong force
As I practise this exercise, I will use this in meditation with it. It seems a good opportunity to perhaps help inform the practise some, or maybe shed light on the meaning og the gram.

Has anyone out there studied Qi Gong or Martilal arts as well, having insight into any connections with the imagery in the commentary on the hexagrams and the imagery invoked by the poses or exercises ....?
Or if you can direct me to any good sources...? I'd be beholden' to ya!

The practice of ba gua is based on the hexagrams : http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?p=101444#post101444

 

[sergio]

Hello Solun;
Here 's the link to a paper I posted sometime ago on Internal Alchemy and the trigrams:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=8829
As Panther said Ba Gua Zhang uses the trigrams and the hexagrams as foundations of the art.Check the link he provided for some good discussion and links.
Sergio

 

[sergio]

...And here's another one:
http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/yijing.htm
This is the the Ba Gua Zhang system I practice.
Sergio

 

[sergio]

...And yet another one!This is a really great paper from Andreas Schoster .I think the link will direct you to his site then you will have to search or better click on "What's new".Once there the first entry is another great paper from him on the same subject (Tai chi chuan )called Conciousness in movement.Click on it and it will send you to the section with that paper and another one called "Great polar fist:and the Book of Changes.
http://www.yijing.co.uk/
Sergio

 

[solun]

And again, Thanks!
I will be looking at these links and posts. I thought I had seen something posted around here a while back - but just decided to cast the net. I tried Qi Gong years ago at an outdoor fair in the Northeast late one summer. I practse yoga, and thought this was amazing. I don't really jibe with Tai Chi, this approach seemed better for me somehow.

 

[solun]

Very interesting!!
I can't be of any use for you; but I'd love to hear your future insights on it.

you probably would! But I can't be of any use for you, you will ultimately have to derive your own, either instinctively or consciously.

 

[solun]

panther and sergio, or those who can be of any use in their knowledge of the subject:

Regarding the Ba Gua:
I have had this question about the use of it in terms of where it is situated - does it correlate directly to earth. If so, doesn't where we are on the earth affect it's use and or orientation? I have discovered that we have directions and numbers relating to our birth year. I am a West 2. The Ba Gua number specifies the Ba Gua configuration differently than representing general forces or energies in the general directions. So,,, what I am asking is, are there different applications of the orientation depending on who and/or where you are? Or, is it the same for everyone, no matter whether they are in China or in the Canary Islands?

 

[jesed]

you probably would! But I can't be of any use for you, you will ultimately have to derive your own, either instinctively or consciously.

You really take it personally, don't you?. Sorry.

 

[bradford]

Gua 10 isn't really about taming a tiger.
It's about training yourself to not be a screwup
so that you don't piss the tiger off and get bitten.

 

[solun]

The metaphor for the tiger refers to not treading on it's tail. It is about a weaker force trying to arouse a stronger, perhaps more malevolent one in your own personality, which needs to be disciplined so that it behaves and expresses itself more effectively and eloquently, and in a balanced way. Conduct, bradford.

 

[solun]

jesed, I am not sure why you continue in this, chasing me around the board, arguing. If you want to fight, or take things personally, own it for yourself, don't project it onto others or try to draw me into it. Go to the unmoderated area and fight with someone there. I have better things to do with my time and energy. I don't appreciate it or your insincerity and hostility. Yours or bradfords'. And I really think you two need to cool off and learn how to behave.

I posted this thread for people to learn about Qi Gong and Yi Ching and not for destructive characters to hang out at. If you won't contribute positively or constructively, stay off of this thread please.

 

[jesed]

The metaphor for the tiger refers... is about a weaker force trying to arouse a stronger, perhaps more malevolent one ...

The figure of the Tiger, in chinesse culture, is not of malevolent force. On the contrary, is a sign of nobility

Best

 

[solun]

sergio, the ninedragons site seems pretty on point! I am learning now that Tai Ji is a form of Qi Gong and reading at other sites, so thanks for the direction guys.

 

[solun]

jesed, then why don't you be noble and run off with your tail between your legs! because either way, you don't have a clue. And I think that's what's really bothering you.

 

[lloyd]

Maybe all of you are right, to some degree
To I Ching it is all the same ...

 

[bradford]

I have better things to do with my time and energy. I don't appreciate it or your insincerity and hostility. Yours or bradfords'. And I really think you two need to cool off and learn how to behave.

I'm only here to persecute you when you get the Yijing's metaphors wrong and start spreading it around. You don't need to insert "Taming the Tiger" into Gua 10, where it doesn't belong, when you can just as easily insert it into your

 

[waveCT]

Taiji is not a form of qigong. Taiji is taiji: it's a martial art, and rarely taught as such. Qigong is an element of taiji.

Qigong/taiji/bagua (the last associates a progression of movements with a progression of trigrams) are each disciplines first of the body, then of the qi, and then of the mind: unravelling the Yi's responses appears to be very much an exercise primarily of the intellect: maybe that is unfair, but the Yi does generate a lot of verbiage.

The Chinese are great pattern-makers and associative thinking is at the foundation of the world-view. The nature of the association of a pattern with an activity (eg, trigam—posture/movement) may be one of analogy, or of arbitrary symbolism, or simply magical: but at the beginning, it's useful to think of that relation as being similar to the visualisations propounded by the various schools of meditation, where an image is associated with a specific energy centre...

Now, these visualisations can take on a disproportionate importance in our heads—perhaps because they are easier to grasp than the activity with which they are associated—and this may not be useful in progressing the activity itself.

In my experience, cluttering one's head with possible connections has done nothing to refine my qigong, or my taiji. It's true that "yin" and "yang" are useful mental correlates with aspects of a taiji postures: but why not use taiji's own concepts, "substantial" and "insubstantial" ? Less abstract. And while I can mentally conjure an image of the trigrams, bagua is beyond me: it appears to be performed in a deep crouch, moving in a circle (or more precisely, octagonally).

 

[bradford]

The Chinese are great pattern-makers and associative thinking is at the foundation of the world-view. The nature of the association of a pattern with an activity (eg, trigam—posture/movement) may be one of analogy, or of arbitrary symbolism, or simply magical: but at the beginning, it's useful to think of that relation as being similar to the visualisations propounded by the various schools of meditation, where an image is associated with a specific energy centre...

You probably already know this, but for the benefit of others doing research, this "associative thinking" is also known as correlative thought or nested analogies.

 

[waveCT]

Thankyou... I'd forgotten the correct term.

 

[hilary]

 

[bradford]

Confused about what he said? It was in reference to the line above, saying that other names for associative thinking were correlative thought and nested analogies. These are also sometimes considered a subset of magical thinking. It's the idea that one part in one analogy resonates with its corresponding part in a similarly constructed analogy. For example, if Li and Fire are in the East (Xian Tian Bagua), then drawing Li in a reading may point eastward if your question is about direction.
I'm afraid it's not a very easy read, but I discuss correlative thought in Vol 2, pp 4-7 and Vol 1, pp 444-9. It also plays an important part in Needham's analysis of Chinese philosophy. There is also this great little monograph if your library can find it:
Graham, A.C. Yin-Yang and the Nature of Correlative Thinking. Singapore:
Institute of East Asian Philosophies (Occasional Paper and Monograph Series No. 6), 1986.

 

[sergio]

Greetings.CTOZ;
I agree.Tai ji and Qigong (and ba gua)are separate activities.Althought these two are martial arts they can also be done as Qigong exercises.Please refer to B.K.Frantzis books and DVDs or Bracy's book on bagua or Dr.John Painter's excellent two books"Combat Baguazhang".Dr.Painter's book are higly recommended if you say BaGuaZhang is beyond you.
On the subject of using the trigrams this is only a matter of identifying certain organs with a certain trigram or in the case of ba gua to invest a palm with an emotional attitude.Of course,nobody says I will use hexagram 23 to deal with an attacker or I will use the fire trigram.But if they are ingrained in your practice they will come up when you need them.
Sergio

 

[elvis]

You probably already know this, but for the benefit of others doing research, this "associative thinking" is also known as correlative thought or nested analogies.

It is also tied to symmetric or mythic thinking. The focus is on secondary harmonics within a whole - lots of associations etc but still within the 'ONE' - issues then emerge in that there is little differentiation of objects and so seeding the notion of 'all is connected' - discretisation is marginalised. This is brain dynamic tied to social developments where discretisation takes us into high precision, unique consciousness (and so fragmentation of family etc) and the more Western perspectives.

The realm of symmetric thinking is the realm of analogy/metaphor where all are interchangeable in interpreting reality - as such the post-modernist perspective of 'any metaphor will do'. It is also the realm of dreams and of a dumbed-down form of logic that is symmetric in form and so grounded in the bi-conditional (IF and ONLY IF) - whereas precise logic is asymmetric and grounded in the conditional (IF..THEN..)

Issues with symmetry is that it lacks direction and only with a focus on anti-symmetry and asymmetry can direction be established and the symmetric whole deal with true change (core changing and so transcending; surface change is into transforming, different patterns etc are used but the core remains constant)

Associative memory development is the easiest form of memory aquisition and covers the use of dichotomisation eliciting constructive/destructive wave interference patterns that enable the richness of such a memory. It is tied to 'holographic' perspectives but lacks the object differentiation skills and so all is seen to operate WITHIN the one 'object'.

 

[hilary]

Confused about what he said? ...

No, just bemused and depressed by the weirdly random and abrupt descent into personal attacks. But I've sent the usual pm, and the thread has moved on, so don't mind me. That was just intended as a 'moderator aware' sort of sign.

 

[waveCT]

@ bradford
Thankyou for the reference.

@ sergio
I should not have been prescriptive: it would be more helpful to say that qigong and taiji are intersecting or overlapping disciplines. Regarding bagua: two forms of taiji are more than enough at my age, and I'm hoping to get that down to one.

Interested to know whether you can say more about the process of "identifying", as in "identifying certain organs with a certain trigram"...

@ elvis
I'm still mulling the vistas you open up, and I understand you have been helpful to other here. I won't respond again until I've explored further. However, I remain wary of any overarching explanatory system or management plan: the Yi's saving grace is that it is incomplete an not entirely consistent. Vive la differance.

@ hilary
Was the frown because we're straying off-topic?

 

[hilary]

Crumbs, no - divination is being explored, after all. See my post to Brad, above.

 

[dryjoe]

Liu Yiming on hex. 10

Has anyone out there studied Qi Gong or Martilal arts as well, having insight into any connections with the imagery in the commentary on the hexagrams and the imagery invoked by the poses or exercises ....?
Or if you can direct me to any good sources...? I'd be beholden' to ya!

I have found your question just now, and recommend you to look at The Taoist I Ching with the commentaries of Liu Yiming (in translation of Thomas Cleary). He was a famous master of inner alchemy in the 18. c. AD. His commentaries are based on the teachings of the Complete Reality school of Taoism. 'Complete Reality Taoism is alive in the present... A number of its artifacts, such as the exercise system T'ai Chi Ch'uan and certain meditation technics have long since have passed into the public domain ...' (From the Foreword) - The Taoist I Ching (Shambhala Classics) by Lui I-Ming and Thomas Cleary (Paperback, 2005.)

Maybe you will get useful information from his commentary on hex 10. The book is available at the bookstores, and on the internet too. I know one site only where you can read it online and free of charge. http://www.docin.com/p-33560896.html

Best, Joe

 

[bradford]

I think I would suggest looking at Qigong as the great-grandchilld of the Yijing, and the great-great-grandchild of the Zhouyi, with nearer relatives being Yinyang Jia, Han Yiweishu, Daoist Xiangshu, Daojiao (religious Daoism), Neidan (Inner Alchemy), TCM and Taiji.
Being a post-Mao era practice it's a pretty recent descendant. Even when it borrows from Bagua it borrows from much more recent elaborations. One thing to remember about the great-great-grandchild - there is only an average of 1/16 of the great-great-grandparent's DNA remaining. For the most part you will be hard pressed to find any undiluted (or unpolluted) Zhouyi imagery at all.