Qns abt I-Ching,Wu Xing

[byzantine]

Hi all,

I'm quite new to e I-Ching and i was stumped over Master Jou Tsung Hwa's book the Tao of I-Ching. Thus far i have Alfred Huang's Complete I-Ching n Wilhelm's classic translation. But i came across Shao Yung and i couldn't help but be intrigued by his Plum Blossom method or the mei hua xin yi n so somehow that led me to e Tao of I-Ching in my quest to get a deeper understanding of things.

What i dun quite get with regards to wu xing is how e ti gua of e ben gua relates with e yung gua of e ben,hu and zhi gua. That's to say is there any specific guideline whereby e ti gua interacts with only e yung gua of e ben gua or e yung of e hu n zhi gua? Also how is e yung gua of e hu n zhi gua to interact with each other n e ti gua? I ask this cos he seems to make everything interact in some haphazard manner i can't seem to grasp, largely due to a lack of more examples to clear my doubts.

Also initially i used to follow Alfred Huang's formula of using only one changing line when there r many, to avoid confusion. But after reading Master Jou's book i felt tt using all e changing lines seemed to make more sense. Also i notice tt ppl in this forum use all e changing lines they get in a reading. I'm kind of confused as i clearly have not read enough abt this...shld we use only one changing line when we hv many? Or should we use them all? Or shld we use both, would that help us get a better assessment of e situation? What's e reason for this discrepancy? I would be most grateful if someone would be kind enough to shed some light on my questions.

With warm regards,
Irving

 

[byzantine]

Sorry got carried away, if whoever uses original, nuclear hexagram and trigram to explain my qn to me, i'm familiar with these terms as well. Thanx.

With warm regards,
Irving

 

[kevin]

Hi Byzantine

This should help... you will see there are a number of relevent hyperlinks on this page:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/practical_I_Ching/advanced.html

--Kevin

 

[byzantine]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks a lot for pointing out tt link to me, it was much appreciated.

With warm regards,
Irving

 

[byzantine]

Hi Kevin,

U seem to know more than me, i was wondering if u know anything abt using e i-ching with e 5 elements, wind, water, fire, earth, metal cos the first bit of my qn wasn't answered in e link you gave me.

As in splitting e hexagram up into its trigrams n then using e 5 elements to gain deeper insight. I'm not exactly sure how e 5 elements interact with each other as i mentioned in my first post.

With warm regards,
Irving

 

[peter]

Irving,

It will be better if you'll write in plain English, without abbreviations and simplifications.

Nevertheless I understood your question, and while I know something about Plum Blossom, I'll try to answer.

Read Jou Tsung-hwa's texts more carefully: he tells that Ti (Body) is always in the primary (ben, root) hexagram, and in the first moment only Yong (Instrument) of the primary hexagram affects it. Then on the next step two trigrams from the nuclear hexagram (hu) add, and you have to examine interactions between your Ti and 3 Yongs. On the third, final, step you add trigrams of the secondary (zhi, changed) hexagram.

It may confuse you at first, but it is important to remember about strengths of elements according to a season. I remind them:

Wood - strongest in spring (Wood is the element of spring), weakest in autumn, exhausts in summer and grows in winter (neutral in the end of every season);
Fire - strongest in summer (element of summer), weakest in winter, exhausts in the end of every season, grows in spring (neutral in autumn);
Earth - strongest in the end of every season, weakest in spring, exhausts in autumn, grows in summer (neutral in winter);
Metal - strongest in autumn, weakest in summer, exhausts in winter, grows in the end of every season (neutral in spring);
Water - strongest in winter, weakest in the end of every season, exhausts in spring, grows in autumn (neutral in summer).

"The end of every season" is 18 days before the next season. But Chinese seasons are not Western: spring begins in Feb 4th-5th, summer - in May 4th-5th, autumn - in Aug 5th-6th and winter - in Nov 5th-6th. (Yes, I know that Jou Tsung-hwa tried to translate the whole system for Westerners, but it depends on too many factors to make such translation well.)

These strengths are based on interactions of elements and their seasonal correspondences.

So after you wrote down all 3 hexagrams and divided them nto trigrams, find Ti and determine its strength. Then see how this strength is changed by Yong. Other Yongs may help Ti, or harm it, or even affect earlier Yongs (but this case is s derivative and has not so much power as Ti-Yong interaction).

Oh, doesn't Master Jou give the chart of elements interaction? Okay, here it is:

Birth sequence:

Wood -> Fire -> Earth -> Metal -> Water -> Wood...

Kill sequence:

Metal -> Wood -> Earth -> Water -> Fire -> Metal...

Under "exhaustion" I meant that the next element in birth sequence takes qi from the previous, like Fire exhausts Wood.

"Fear circle" is reverse to "Kill circle" - Wood fears Metal etc.

Chinese elements are not linear, so you have to try it by yourself and have some practice.

There are many variants of interactions of elements, when we add their strengths. EG, if we have a very weak Metal (in summer), then anything harmful can destroy it - even many Wood which can bury this Metal. So for such Metal some Earth will be good - it feeds Metal. But (another example) a strong Fire (in summer too) will be rather glad to have some killing (truly - controlling) Water nearby, otherwise Fire can become too strong and it is also bad (remember taoist principle of balance - too little is bad and too much is bad also).

Also, in "Mei hua yi shu" Shao Yong gives some classes of questions and their variants of results. EG if we divine on a trip, then variants are the following:

1) Ti and Yong are of the same element - the best case, your trip will be successfull with no doubt;
2) Yong gives birth to Ti - good, you'll have support in your trip, things will be easy;
3) Ti kills Yong - nothing particular, "neutral" case, maybe there will be some profits and losses, but balanced;
4) Ti gives birth to Yong - exhaustion, trip will be hard, you'll lose energy and gain little (but if you're tend to give energy, then you'll achieve your goal);
5) Yong kills Ti - very bad, lots of dangers and no profit (except experience, of course).

But always look on strengths of elements.

If you still find that it is hard to examine all 3 hexagrams, then press on the secondary (zhi) hexagram and examine its influence on Ti trigram.

Hope it helps.

With best regards,

Peter

 

[byzantine]

Peter,

Thanx for taking the time to reply, it's much appreciated and has cleared some of my doubts but maybe an example would be more enlightening for me.

For eg, i cast a hexagram to see if my friend would get a particular job at a company. I got 12.2.6 to 47.

So if i read you correctly, the Ti will be earth for the ben hexagram which gives birth to the Yong of Metal. This is not so good.

Moving on to the hu hexagram which is 53. The ti is stronger because there are 2 earths and how does that relate to the metal and wood of the ben and hu hexagrams respectively?

Then we have the zhi hexagram of 47 which is has a yong of metal and water. So relating the zhi hexagram to the ben hexagram, we have 2 metals which is quite bad for the ti of earth? We also relate this to the hu hexagram, but should the earth of the hu hexagram be taken by itself or should we bear in mind the ti thus strengthening the earth hexagram for the hu? Uhmm i hope you can understand where my confusion is stemming from?

Also you brought up the point about the strength of the elements according to the seasons. Does this mean that since i did this reading in mid april, the earth is weakest, metal is neutral, wood is strongest and water is exhausted? How do we apply this to the reading? Do we give wood added strength since it's strongest meaning that the Earth is in a vulnerable position even though there are two of it in the ben and hu hexagrams?

So overall the 5 elements point to the difficulties that lie ahead in his getting the job, but if we were to consider the meaning of the 3 hexagrams then basically it's saying he should perservere through the difficulties ahead?

I'm sorry for the trouble, but i just wanted to be sure i got this right.

With warm regards,
Irving

 

[peter]

Irving,

Thanks for this example, I try to interpret it.

I'd like to begin from determining strengths of elements. You told about mid April - well, it is near those 18 days before summer, can you tell the exact date of divination? It is also the 3rd month by Chinese calendar, and it belongs to Earth (Earth branch of Chen), so I assume that the Earth element is the strongest.

We meet here all elements except Fire:
Earth - strongest;
Metal - strong (supported by month);
Wood - neutral;
Water - weakest (killed by month).

So in the beginning - Pi hexagram, Kun-Earth is Ti, Qian-Metal is Yong - we see some difficulties, but it is rather good, because Earth is very strong, and it is helpful to draw some qi from it. Maybe your friend must give a bribe or something like it.

In the middle we see Gen-Earth and Xun-Wood. While Gen and Kun both belong to Earth, nevertheless they are different trigrams, so I risk to suggest that it represents a rival - somebody who pretends on this place along with your friend (while another Kun could represent a support to your friend). And Wood is possibly a boss which must decide whom he wants to take (killing, or oppressing, element represents somebody or something which has some control over you - policeman, robber, boss, lawyer etc.). Boss is not in a strong position and wavers.

Finally, we see Dui-Metal and Kan-Water trigrams. I believe that it points to a bribe too: an element which you control (and Earth controls Water) may represent money, and Metal again points on some investments. Or maybe it is not a bribe, but only some portfolio, which may help to incline a boss towards your friend.

About structure of interpretation: trigrams in one hexagram here are linked mechanically, so to say, but work separately. Trigrams in nuclear (hu) and secondary (zhi) hexagrams are all Yongs, I already wrote that their influence on Ti must be examined in a simple way (simplicity is another principle: all that fogs a clear answer must be thrown away).

Basically, "Plum Blossom" and text readings are totally different methods of divination, and I don't recommend to mix them. At least decide which method will be primary and which - secondary. If you want to use hexagrams' names, then think how "Depression" and "Exhaustion" relate to this particular case (sorry, I have no English translation and don't know how exactly these names were translated into English).

I recommend to study Chinese calendar, because it is important for "Plum Blossom", which works with elements.

With best regards,

Peter

 

[byzantine]

Peter,

Thanx a lot for you explanations, it has been a great help. I have a better understanding of things now and will look more deeply into your suggestions.

With warm regards,
Irving

 

[bradford]

Without meaning to attack anything being said here, it should be noted for the general reader that the original Yijing or Zhouyi had nothing whatsoever to do with the Wu Xing. This was added to the lore many centuries later in the Han Dynasty and is not fundamental to an understanding of the Yi. Back when the Yi was developed, the 5 Movements were still known as the Six Storehouses, the familiar five. plus Gu, Grain or Seed. These are mentioned n the Shujing or Book of History. The Five don't come along until the Spring and Autumn or the Warring States period.

 

[pocossin]

. . . the original Yijing or Zhouyi had nothing whatsoever to do with the Wu Xing.

Brad, I am sure you are mistaken about this, but I doubt I could present evidence you would find persuasive. The ten celestial stems were part of Shang culture and are incorporated in the design of the the yi jing. They are correlatives of hexagrams 9 - 18 and have the traditional five-element associations but in the order earth, wood, metal, fire, water:

earth 9, 10
wood 11, 12
metal 13, 14
fire 15, 16
water 17, 18

That is, hexagram 11 corresponds to yang wood; hexagram 18 to yin water, etc.

I came to this conclusion by examining hexagram pictures:

earth shoe
wood clump of grass
metal ax
fire cock
water wine vessel

These visual emblems follow the traditional element associations exactly.

And there is evidence outside the yi. As I pointed out elsewhere, the dao de jing is based on the yi, each chapter developed from a hexagram. Chapter 24 comes from hexagram 17 (yang water = wine) and begins

Those who stand on tiptoe do not stand (firmly)

What is the source of the idea of infirmness in standing? The person does not stand firmly because he is under the influence of yang water, that is, drunk.

 

[peter2610]

Those who stand on tiptoe do not stand (firmly)

What is the source of the idea of infirmness in standing? The person does not stand firmly because he is under the influence of yang water, that is, drunk.

I always took it to mean that those who over-reach or over-extend themselves through desire or ambition, invite instability. Just as those who rush ahead don't go far etc. Clinging to relative phenomena is like trying to catch the wind with your fingers. The basis of essence is non-being, the basis of non-being is non-identification with, and non-attachment to, constructed form - beyond duality.

 

[pocossin]

I always took it to mean that those who over-reach or over-extend themselves through desire or ambition, invite instability. Just as those who rush ahead don't go far etc. Clinging to relative phenomena is like trying to catch the wind with your fingers. The basis of essence is non-being, the basis of non-being is non-identification with, and non-attachment to, constructed form - beyond duality.

By "relative phenomena" do you mean non-environmental existence -- the illusion of existence independent of context?

 

[peter2610]

Yang Water

"Relative phenomena" is a pretty widely understood term in Eastern metaphysics Tom. I use it, not in any obscure sense, but in the normative manner consistent with texts such as the Dao De Jing and doctrine's such as Sunyata, Pratitya Samutpada, Anicca etc
My question was regarding the link between yang water/wine and the meaning of "Those who stand on tiptoe..." in Chapter 24 of the Dao De Jing. I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong on this, there might well be a level of meaning that I am not yet aware of but I would need to be convinced that it ran coherently throughout the text.

 

[bradford]

Brad, I am sure you are mistaken about this, but I doubt I could present evidence you would find persuasive.

Yeah, I doubt that you could too.
The Chinese are second only to the Jews in lying about the antiquity of their Truths.
It's a preference for 22 over 15, for glamour over honesty.

 

[pocossin]

. . . I would need to be convinced that it ran coherently throughout the text.

Yes, every chapter of the Tao Te Ching alludes to its corresponding hexagram in the I Ching. I observed the relationship in 2004. Some are quite obvious, but it took me months to work them all out.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=2723
Lao Tzu and the Hexagrams

Some of the easier allusions are given in message #20.