questions about the ideograms, old characters ....

[Freedda]

In a few versions of the Yijing, there are references to the ideograms, that I assume are the older characters which are the names of - or represent - the hexagrams. Among authors who reference these are LiSe 'Calling Crane' Heyboer, Stephen Karcher, Alfred Huang, and Hilary Barrett.

For example, for Hex. 21, called 'Bitiing Through' (among others names/titles), LiSe describes the old 'ideogram':

The character (biting) is composed of bamboo (1), shaman (3) and mouth (4). Shaman + bamboo is oracle-consulting with yarrow stalks. Shaman is work (2) + two people. (And ....)

KÈ, ... is composed of mouth (4) dish (6) and a lid or a 'closer' (10). So 7 is a dish with lid. The lid ... was originally a drawing of a man with a ball between his legs and might have meant castrate: remove, leave, depart, close.​

... to me these characters / ideograms don't really look like the Chinese characters/script which I usually see, but instead look like characters that are no longer used - perhaps from a pre-Yi time of oracle bone divination?

So, I'm wondering about the source(s) of these older characters, glyphs, writing ....? Where do they come from? Are these the sources for the names/titles of the hexagrams? How is it we have come to associate them with the Yi (we are now familiar with)? ....?

Thanks, David

 

[bradford]

Have some fun on this page, from our Uncle Hanzi

Chinese Etymology 字源

Chinese Etymology 字源, Chinese character history and ancient Chinaese character (Orachle characters, Bronze characters, Seal characters, Shuowen Jiezi, Liushutong) analysis and research 汉字历史和古汉字(甲骨文, 金文, 篆字, 说文解字, 六书通)研究与分析. Search 100K+ ancient Chinese characters and etymology. 查询10万+古汉字和字源.

hanziyuan.net

 

[Freedda]

Have some fun on this page, from our Uncle Hanzi

Damn, you're making me do the work myself!

.... Thanks, I have visited that website before and will again, but I'm still interested in how we get got the connections between these ideograms and the Yi? Maybe something about their history and origins (which feels a bit different than knowing what they mean).

 

[bradford]

Copy the hexagram names from here and paste them into Uncle Hanzi's search box.

Book of Changes - Chinese Text Project

Book of Changes (周易) - full text database, fully browsable and searchable on-line; discussion and list of publications related to Book of Changes. In English and simplified and traditional Chinese.

ctext.org

 

[Freedda]

Thanks again Bradford. I tried this for Hex. 1 Qian, and it brought up the historic/older characters for Qian, but I'm wondering where to go from here? I don't see a way where I can then input one of these Seal and Liushutong characters and see their meaning or defintion. It seems I can only get a picutre of them?

I'm also thinking that it's possible that the various modern Yi authors/interpreters 'worked backwards' in a similar way to what you showed here - that they started with the more 'modern' version of Hex. 1, Qian, and then looked up the older variant? And maybe from there they had a book or reference that tells what these older characters mean?

And while I'm at it, I tried to find the definition or meaning of 'Liushutong' (characters) but I didn't find what it's referring to? (Whereas I may have more of an understanding of what Oracle, Bronze, or Seal characters are - or so I think?)

Best, D.

 

[charly]

Hi, David:

In an old thread (1) I've posted some sources that may be of your interest, mainly:

A page on chinese history and culture where you can find articles about script nature and evolution in general and Liushutong in special:

Dr. Ulrich Theobald (Chinaknowledge.de): The Chinese Script

The Chinese Script (www.chinaknowledge.de)

An introduction into the Chinese script.

www.chinaknowledge.de

Many books are available for download in this russian page:

http://starling.rinet.ru/Texts/Students/

...like a modern approach to chinese script:
Qui Xigui: Chinese Writing.

http://starling.rinet.ru/Texts/Students/Qiu%20Xigui/Chinese%20Writing%20%282000%29.pdf

Boltz, William: Origin and Early Development od Chinese Writing System

http://starling.rinet.ru/Texts/Students/Boltz%2C%20William/The%20Origin%20And%20Early%20Development%20Of%20The%20Chinese%20Writing%20System%20%281994%29.pdf

I believe that also worths read more traditional although a little outdated books like Leon Wieger's Chinese Characters that are in public dominion avilable in Archive.org and other sites.

All the best,

Charly
_______________
(1) Ch.

 

[Freedda]

Thanks Charley. Interesting references, but perhaps I maybe need to seek out those authors whom used these older ideograms and ask them why they included them, how they came to make a connection between the Yi (which I don't think was written on oracle bone script?) and these older characters?

Perhaps:
@hilary
@heylise
?

 

[hilary]

It's contemporary with the Zhou bronzes, at least its compilation is, so the bronze script is probably nearest. But I feel fairly safe imagining that those who originally committed the oracle to bamboo would have had some sense of the roots and history of the characters they were writing, and used that in their work.

All the characters on the page at Uncle Hanzi's are the same word. You can read down his left-hand sidebar for his ideas of the original meaning of the earliest forms.

(Hexagram 1 is, funnily enough, a bad place to start, since he hasn't got any OBI or bronze versions of 乾 . Try LiSe - and, especially, Harmen. He has articles on the translation of the first few hexagrams. Send him encouragement and/or bribes to do the rest, please.

 

[Freedda]

It's contemporary with the Zhou bronzes, at least its compilation is, so the bronze script is probably nearest. But I feel fairly safe imagining that those who originally committed the oracle to bamboo would have had some sense of the roots and history of the characters they were writing, and used that in their work.

Thanks so much. Harmen has sent me some info as well.

My assumption is that some people - perhaps LiSe - found out what the bronze or oracle bone characters are that correspond to the gua's more 'modern' characters, and then did further reseach about the meanings/roots/etc of these earlier characters, which might be as much as I need to know at this point - along with knowing about Uncle Hanzi's web site as a resource!

In one of the articles from Harmen I just started reading about the different indeas/theories of written language - that it is primary used as a means of 'writing down' and conveying spoken language (which I think is the prevailing theory), versus characters that perhaps were meant to convey meaning on their own, and not necessarily represent speech (or something like that!). Sort of facinating really, and I'm curious what it might mean regarding my understanding and use of the Yi?

Best, D.

 

[tacrab]

I think it's not clear whether you are asking about script versus literature.
Study of old characters is a regular part of study of older Chinese, and has been going on for thousands of years already, and is an important part of calligraphic study as an art form, and is a hobby. No different than someone studying Biblical Hebrew or Greek to study the Bible in more depth: word roots, varient words, meaning, usage, scribal practices, etc. "Modern" characters in Chinese have been standardized for millennia, and updated in PRC era.
The literature has gone through its own copious changes.

 

[charly]

Thanks Charley. Interesting references, but perhaps I maybe need to seek out those authors whom used these older ideograms and ask them why they included them, how they came to make a connection between the Yi (which I don't think was written on oracle bone script?) and these older characters?

Perhaps:
@hilary
@heylise
?

Hi, David:

Not always is possibe to trace the evolution of a given character from bone script to bronze and to small seal. I believe that the scribes that wrote the Yi didn't know about bone script. Of course, much les than modern scholars that ignore much more than they know on it.

Of course that LiSe and Harmen are musts, but sooner or later you will need to read some books about the script and its evolution at least as an amateur. I encourage you to read some traditional, no matters if outdated and some modern no matters if mainstream or not. Add to the list of the modern Cooper's «Other Greek» (Brill 2018) (1) available in Googe Books with parcial preview:

The Other Greek

"In The Other Greek, Arthur Cooper offers a captivating and unorthodox introduction to the world of the Chinese script through the medium of poetry, explaining the structure, meaning and cultural significance of each character. Written nearly half a century ago, and now published posthumously...

books.google.com.ar

Look al editor's presentation here...

The Other Greek

"The Other Greek" published on 26 Oct 2018 by Brill.

brill.com

For seeing old characters, ask Svenrus how to acquire:
Park, Haeree: The Writing System of Scribe Zhou
Evidence from Late Pre-imperial Chinese Manuscripts and Inscriptions (5th-3rd Centuries BCE)

The Writing System of Scribe Zhou

www.degruyter.com

​

All the best,

Charly
____________________
(1) Arthur Cooper, Imre Galambos: The Other Greek: An Introduction to Chinese and Japanese Characters, Their History and Influence. Brill 2018
Ch.