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Quick question about a paid membership

If there were an added paid membership on offer at Clarity, I would...

  • prefer it to be a small one, for maybe $5-$10/month

    Votes: 17 65.4%
  • prefer it to be a bigger service, for maybe $20-$40/month

    Votes: 1 3.8%
  • not be interested

    Votes: 8 30.8%

  • Total voters
    26

hilary

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To be clear... I don't want to convert this forum, as is, into something just for paying members. It wouldn't feel right. But I'd like to create an upgraded membership, with some extras, that does cost a monthly fee.

It seems to me there are two ways I could go with this: big or small.

A 'small' version would mostly be about providing more and better ways for people to communicate. A bigger private message box (I think it'd make sense to shrink the one that comes with the free membership), private forums, live meetings by phone or whatever technology works best without getting in the way. Maybe a wiki so people's best contributions can be collected together and accessed more easily. This could be maybe $5-$10/month. (Depending on whether the extra technology costs much - hopefully it wouldn't - and whether I made a significant time commitment.)

A 'big' version would include everything from the 'small' version, but would also come with lots of my personal time for readings, or calls/ classes, and could also come with lots of extra information. (I'm thinking of information/ interpretive suggestions on each hexagram, for instance, supplied in various different media so you could take your reading with you to listen to during the commute...) And depending on how much time I contributed, it might cost between $20-$40/month.

Both versions could include discounts of proportionate size on my other offerings. (Eg they could come with a coupon each month to the same value as the membership.)

Before we get into the details of what would be valuable to include, I'd like to hear which size to aim at. Hence the poll question.
 

rosada

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I voted for the small fee, but I'd like to see what just asking for donations would do. Maybe you could take a poll asking "If I posted a donation button do you feel you would donate?"
 

hilary

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I don't think I need to take a poll about that - actions speak louder! I actually made the 'donate' link smaller in this layout because the larger version we had before wasn't earning its screen space - but it shouldn't be too hard to tweak the template and make it more prominent. One thing at a time, though. Thank you for being the first to vote :)
 

toganm

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Hi Hilary

To be clear... I don't want to convert this forum, as is, into something just for paying members. It wouldn't feel right. But I'd like to create an upgraded membership, with some extras, that does cost a monthly fee.

It seems to me there are two ways I could go with this: big or small.

......

In my understanding your poll is to provide a choice for a solution. However, in order to provide a solution one should first of all understand the need of the customer. So my question is for what specific need of your customers (in this very specif poll the members of the forum) you are providing the fee based membership product.

My suggestion would be ask questions to gather information what people are needing. In order to do that you need to follow your heart and make it your true teacher and forget the monkey mind.

Hope this helps
Togan
 
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meng

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I can't comment on whether I'd pay for something until I know what I'd be paying for.
 

hilary

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Let me see if I can answer both. (There will be more questions about what people need - or rather what they want - later. One thing at a time, though, or everyone'll suffer survey fatigue.) I want to get an idea of which holds more attraction for people before getting into the minutiae of what each would contain.

Small paid membership

Meeting a desire for more and better communication and co-operation with other members.

Could include - according to demand -

  • private forum/s only visible to members
  • live phone/ webinar events
  • a wiki (to gather our interpretations, methods etc in a more useful, accessible way)
  • more private messaging and email-to-member privileges
Higher price if I make a commitment to show up for the events and in the forum, less if I don't.

I'd probably withdraw some privileges from the free membership to make the difference more worthwhile. Not sure what. Access to the complete archives, maybe? The right to include a link in your signature? To send direct email to members?

Bigger paid membership

Meeting a desire - if there is one - for support in a deep, ongoing relationship with Yi.

Could include - according to demand - any or all of these (or anything else that members suggested would help):

  • All the above (because improved communication with other members would be a big part of that suppport)
  • Materials to help interpret and apply each hexagram. For instance, a sequence to help explore each hexagram as a weekly reading. Daily email, or daily audio (listen to your hexagram while you commute); images, questions, maybe video, as well as just 'what it means' type text. (There would be some delay while I created all this...)
  • 'Reading groups' - support/ technology/ materials to create them online or locally
  • Interviews with experts from related fields who can give us new perspectives on staying connected. (Members suggest experts, I do my best to bring them in.)
  • Single calls/ 'workshops'/?? on specifics - like 'interpreting with trigrams' or 'relationship readings'.
  • A regular slot when I'm available to help briefly with members' readings - maybe a time when I hold the phone / Skype free for them, or regular conference call.
  • Either whacking discounts on or free access to whatever I write next (and, of course, the biggest say in what that is)
  • Reduced-price readings or mentoring.
For instance.

Personally I get very excited about the possibilities of the bigger version. I love the idea of developing something like this in company with a group of people who are as enthusiastic as I am about divination as a kind of regular practice of connection. I think it could become immensely valuable. I'd pay for it.

Right now, from the modest sample we have, it doesn't look as though anyone else would. Maybe later, with a better economic climate... maybe in a 'modular' way, with optional add-ons to the basic membership...
 

heylise

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There are actually not 3 bars in the poll, but 4: the number of voters. So far 12 people did vote, that too is a sign of what people are interested in. Most of all how many.
This looks as if you might make 45 to 90 $ a month with it. And to me it looks like a huge amount of work...

And yet - I too have a feeling something should work, as if the potential is there. Trying to create an image in my mind of WHAT I want to go to when I go to the internet. Clarity is about the only place which interests me. I have a lack of time, but with more time I'd come more often. What would make me come anyway? "No time" has a habit of moving to the place which does not have your first interest.

Have to think more about it, create a little paradise in my mind and then transform it to 'something internet'.

LiSe
 

ben_s

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Hilary, is there a way you can offer a range of packages?

Check this out from the music business: http://ghosts.nin.com/.

A rock star wanted to make an instrumental album, which is very hard to sell these days with a standard record company and radio airplay.

He made the album in his home studio, inviting over some guest musicians for a couple of months. They made two hours of music. Then the musician made a great web site.

The first hour is free and streaming on the web site. The whole two hour set, plus a 40 page pdf, is downloadable from the site for $10. For those who like to handle CD's, adding a pair of CD's brings the total to $20. For those who like the art, adding an art book in a big box, along with two high-resolution discs (all the original files, plus a high-definition mix with slide show), brings the total to $75. For hard-core collectors, there's a signed, limited edition set of 2,500 copies - one per customer - including vinyl LP's and standalone art prints - at $300 - all sold out. All orders include immediate download from the web site. Preorders started two months before delivery. In other words, he doesn't have to send money to the manufacturing plant until after he knows how many have already sold.

Whether or not you like the music, the marketing here is brilliant!

Is there something you can learn from NIN?
 

toganm

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Let me see if I can answer both.
Not an answer to my question

So my question is for what specific need of your customers (in this very specif poll the members of the forum) you are providing the fee based membership product.

What you have provided is a product/service and now you are trying to create a need for it. So you need to work more to convince people that is what they need, want and desire. Therefore my question still stays the same how did you come to the conclusion of the details you gave regarding your paid membership details which makes you think addresses the needs of your customers.

On the other hand if you understand the needs, wants and desires first and then provide a product/service you do not have to work too hard to convince people since it will address the needs.

Togan
 

hilary

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On the other hand if you understand the needs, wants and desires first and then provide a product/service you do not have to work too hard to convince people since it will address the needs.
Exactly. Absolutely. Very well put.
What you have provided is a product/service and now you are trying to create a need for it.
No. I've done that a lot before, and it hasn't worked. (Surprise!) What I'm doing here is trying to find out whether there is a need for a suggested service.
So you need to work more to convince people that is what they need, want and desire.
No - I need to find out what they, in fact, need, want and desire. As you implied, working to convince people they want something is a struggle. It can be done, but it requires some very specialised and high-paid skills I don't have.
how did you come to the conclusion of the details you gave regarding your paid membership details which makes you think addresses the needs of your customers.
I haven't reached any conclusions. I've looked at what people use here and say they appreciate and consider worth paying for (although it's free); I've also looked at what I perceive to be a) desirable (a reliable, fluent relationship with Yi) and b) needed to make that possible, and dreamt up ways that such desires and needs could be met. But if the desire doesn't exist - or not focussed in on Yi, anyway - then I need to go back to the drawing board. Hence, no conclusions.

Ben - yes. That 'stepped' model makes a lot of sense. Another is a more modular one, ie different packages that are less obviously an incremental series of upgrades. That might fit better here, as it's less obvious what is more valuable: eg more content vv more contact, different people would value that different ways.

LiSe, what you say about 'no time' is absolutely true: it means 'other ways of spending it are more important to me.' (Same with 'no money', sometimes.) And about the 4 bars... yes, but it's not obvious how to interpret the 4th bar. Eg
  • 'I already gave you my opinion at length, I don't have time for this.'
  • 'I wouldn't buy anything from you, and I don't want to mess up your results.'
  • 'I wouldn't buy this and I don't want to hurt your feelings by saying so.'
  • 'It's morally wrong for you to try to make a living from the Yi at all.'
  • 'I can't vote - don't know why.' [not logged in]
  • 'It doesn't say what the offers would include.'
  • 'I don't want you to know what I said and start bugging me to buy things.'
  • 'I can't decide until it's on sale.'
  • 'I can't say for sure if I'd buy, so it's not fair to vote and maybe give you a false impression.'
  • 'You're asking me to do your job - the cheek of it!'
As well as of course
  • this particular suggestion isn't interesting to me, though something else might be
This kind of moment is one reason why intuition, divination, soul-searching and some hasty revision of what I know about surveying all come into this as well as quick polls... :rolleyes:
 

hilary

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Actually, when it comes to continuing membership, there's a whole other issue. Quoting my I Ching Class sales letter:
This is why I'll be offering an ongoing membership later this year, where I'll progressively add more materials to help with individual readings, more ways for members to collaborate and build up a body of knowledge, and more ways for members to connect with one another beyond the online forum. After the class comes to an end, class members will be invited to stay on for this new service (free until 2009), and help steer its development.
I have 7 class members who read this before signing up. I'd forgotten exactly how much I'd committed myself to. Eek.

(*Interlude for complete panic*)

Hm... thinks... what I've promised sounds like the smaller version, apart from the 'progressively adding more materials' part. I can set up the small version (that won't be too hard), and talk just to those 7 people about exactly what they'd like by way of extra materials/ calls/ support for the rest of the year. Perhaps I haven't actually committed myself to spending the next 6 months creating a 'big' version that I already know isn't wanted.

(*Breathing again*)

Anyway... just to explain that when I look at this poll and go ahead and start setting these things up anyway, it's not because I'm ignoring you. It's because the basic level, at least, is already promised. The poll still helps me decide how much to include in that, and how much effort to put into promoting it.
 

Trojina

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Puzzled by the focus on members being able to connect up more outside the forum -whenever thats been tried before its kind of flopped hasn't it ? I recall a chatroom that remained unoccupied - live chats/meetings that didn't seem to work too well so weren't repeated. Still if thats what people say they want.....:confused:
 

hilary

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Indeed. And if it isn't, then no need to set it up.
 
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maremaria

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Small paid membership

Meeting a desire for more and better communication and co-operation with other members.

Could include - according to demand -

  • private forum/s only visible to members
  • live phone/ webinar events
  • a wiki (to gather our interpretations, methods etc in a more useful, accessible way)
  • more private messaging and email-to-member privileges
Higher price if I make a commitment to show up for the events and in the forum, less if I don't.

...

1. I’m not sure how I could be benefit from it.
2. a. With all this free softwares (msn, skype) which is the additional value of
t he live phone product ?
b. Webinar sounds interesting as an idea but who, when, how what might make me say yes or no
3. a wiki : might be useful.
4. Till now I found my pm box’s capacity satisfying, so no need for extra.


For all the above I haven’t vote because there is not an option that fits to my answer. (Any second best answer I believe that wouldn’t be useful to you as an valid information.) That means that I wouldn’t mind in a way to contribute but this offer as you describe it is something that I’m not interest in it.

Maria
 

hilary

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1. Some people are upset by the possibility of Google finding their posts. Others aren't. :)
2. No especial value to phone calls, maybe some to webinars (if - if! - technology allows us to communicate more as if we were in the same room), but perhaps some value to having some help making these things happen. Or perhaps not. As Trojan says, there hasn't been a big demand for such things before. (And there's a whole other flop you don't even know about, Trojan.)
3. I think so, too.
4. Ah, but read above... I'm thinking of reducing the pm capacity for free members. (Insert evil capitalist laughter here.)

I'll keep thinking up suggestions to offer you, and better questions to ask...
 
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maremaria

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Thanks for clarifying :)

I liked Rosadas idea. It says something about "voluntary" and "incentives"
Maybe the "donate" idea is not wrong just for some reasons t doesn't work .

If i think of something else , I'll come back.

something else. I think there is another "poll " that worth noticing. Its all the threads you post and the contribution of the member. This shows that people care about this place.
 
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meng

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Another and simpler model looks this way:

The Buy Pie is cut into 3 slices
  1. Those who will buy
  2. Those who won't buy
  3. Those who would buy if given the right reason

Now the job becomes determining, even approximately, the % which best fits your current Buy Pie, and defining that ever important right reason. From there you can establish goals accordingly.

There's only two ways to increase: 1) increase market share 2) increase market. Whoever said you can sell the need is correct. As are you, when you say your goal is to fill the need that is already there. Those are two ways to increase.
 

Trojina

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A 'big' version would include everything from the 'small' version, but would also come with lots of my personal time for readings, or calls/ classes, and could also come with lots of extra information. (I'm thinking of information/ interpretive suggestions on each hexagram, for instance, supplied in various different media so you could take your reading with you to listen to during the commute...) And depending on how much time I contributed, it might cost between $20-$40/month.
.

(I don't even know what a 'wiki' is - something to do with wikepedia i presume)

Hmm re the other flop i don't know about :mischief: I thought last time you tried audio material it flopped big time and you wasted lots of your time - so is there any reason to think it will work now ? The way is see it I wouldn't want to buy something i listen to once and never again - its not like music, once or twice is enough. But like before if people say they want it....but what if they say they want it now but don't buy it when it happens.

Sorry to be the voice of pessimism
 

hilary

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There's only two ways to increase: 1) increase market share 2) increase market. Whoever said you can sell the need
progress.gif
is correct. As are you, when you say your goal is to fill the need that is already there. Those are two ways to increase.
I'm thinking there are two ways I could go: concentrate on people here, or concentrate on reaching out beyond the site. Not mutually exclusive, of course, but it's important to know which is the best use of time in terms of selling more things.

I think selling the need (or manufacturing the need) is infinitely harder than meeting one people already know they have. Wouldn't you agree?

Trojan - the live meetings were OK, the recordings of them are more or less a flop, and an attempt to bring people together to discuss readings every week (all free, with assorted gifts along the way) was a really impressive flop. But the I Ching course with audio does better than it did without, and I do hear from people who are using the audio - burning it to mp3 players, listening repeatedly in the car, etc. Nightingale Conant do OK out of audio, too. ;)
 
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meng

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I'm thinking there are two ways I could go: concentrate on people here, or concentrate on reaching out beyond the site. Not mutually exclusive, of course, but it's important to know which is the best use of time in terms of selling more things.

I think selling the need (or manufacturing the need) is infinitely harder than meeting one people already know they have. Wouldn't you agree?

I agree that creating a market is much harder than gaining share of the existing market, of course. However, to ignore the opportunity for increasing the market is really sad, especially if you happen to be the best at what you do. Think of what ole Tom Edison did for light bulb shares!

Inside and outside is too narrow, too confined to the box.

The categories are not mutually exclusive, true, in that they are in constant flux. For that reason, a marketing plan which breaks down goals according to the Buy Pie, do so on a monthly/quarterly goal basis. It pulls together individual goals, and sparks ways to address each, rather than just "trying to do the best we can" approach.
 
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maremaria

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I think selling the need (or manufacturing the need) is infinitely harder than meeting one people already know they have. Wouldn't you agree?

Exceed customer's expactation is something that people appreciate. think before the customer for the customer. Discover hidden needs or Create new its not easy but it works to make a difference.Some companies focus on innovation, some others follow. Both can be succesful or not. Its a matter of decision. Focusing on what they are good are is vital
 

Trojina

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I'm thinking there are two ways I could go: concentrate on people here, or concentrate on reaching out beyond the site. Not mutually exclusive, of course, but it's important to know which is the best use of time in terms of selling more things.

;)


You must have asked the Yi for guidance on this ? Afterall you are in this together aren't you.
 
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maremaria

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something more about needs.
Discovering a need is not always about something genius. Let me share a example. A company here is producing bread for making toast. A people in the company noticed something very common. That many people don’t like the outside hard part of the slice and little children cannot eat it. So they start selling bread slices without the outside part ( sorry don’t remember the word). Their market share was increased tremendously. They didn’t discover the wheel. They just noticed their consumers’ habits.

Post it notes. A product that was made by a mistake. They were trying to produce clue. Wrong proportions , the clue was a disaster. It didn’t stick.
 

hilary

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Ah - and that really is the best thing since sliced bread! And probably not something any consumers would have thought to suggest. Encouraging example, thank you.

Yes - inside and outside, and ideally finding things to do that benefit both. And yes, I've talked with Yi. I would say 'of course' I have, but in fact in the past I've had this stupid tendency to get ideas in my head that limited the scope of my questioning, so I left whole swathes of my decision-making unexamined. Twerp. But all I'm doing here is Yi-driven, from the very idea that I need to start this intensive drive for feedback, through the decision to focus here, the way I'm going about it - everything. Of course I'm also doing the 'learning from readings with hindsight' thing pretty consistently.

Readings that led me 'in house'... first, in slightly frantic need of reassurance: if I do all I can, follow advice and work well, what are my chances? 9.2.3.5 to 27. Looking at line 5 I guessed my 'neighbours' would be found mostly outside the ICC, but asked a pair of questions to test the assumption.
'What contribution from "cultivating" the membership?'
Answer: 9.5. (You ever get the impression Yi has put you in remedial class?)
'And what benefit or effect can I expect from cultivating relationships outside the ICC, both marketing and seeking alliances?'
29.2.

So here I am.
 

ben_s

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Trojan, Wiki means a web page that anyone can edit, or that any registered user can edit. The page includes an "edit this page" button that loads an edit box, similar to the place where we type in our forum posts, but with the page loaded in. The editor typically includes tools to make it easy to insert links and add basic formatting. It can be a good tool for people who respect each other to build a shared document.
 

hilary

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Thanks, Ben. Exactly. It can also be used to create something interlinked, clearly structured and easy to navigate. The forums are full of gems of insight, but even with Ewald's search, it takes a lot of 'trawling' to find them.
 

Trojina

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Trojan, Wiki means a web page that anyone can edit, or that any registered user can edit. The page includes an "edit this page" button that loads an edit box, similar to the place where we type in our forum posts, but with the page loaded in. The editor typically includes tools to make it easy to insert links and add basic formatting. It can be a good tool for people who respect each other to build a shared document.

Its very kind of people to explain things to me like the value of the dollar and what 'wiki' means - i feel like an elderly aunt who can't quite keep up with modern world :rofl:
Hmm and like an elderly person i never felt the need for such a facility like wiki before so i see no need for it now - a hopeless customer
- maybe Yi products for the older diviner - very large coins or something - and I'm not even that old

But thanks Ben, much appreciated
 
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maremaria

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....Wiki means a web page that anyone can edit, or that any registered user can edit. The page includes an "edit this page" button that loads an edit box, similar to the place where we type in our forum posts, but with the page loaded in. The editor typically includes tools to make it easy to insert links and add basic formatting. It can be a good tool for people who respect each other to build a shared document.


this is something worth paying just to see it happen. ;)

time 10:10: 01 : the arrow is lost
time 10:10:50 : the arrow is not lost.
time 10:11: 15 : the arrow is lost
time 10:11:35 : the arrow is not lost.

:duh:

Sorry but couldn't resist to the tempation.:D
 

KarenS

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I agree and disagree with some of the comments. Let me see if I can sort them out:

- I disagree that one wants to find the need, then create a service/product. While this may be a sure bet for having people Buy, it can sap the passion and energy out of the provider. I have a business that provides a service no one particularly thinks they need, but when I explain via my marketing (done like any other independent marketer) how it can indeed feel the larger needs they have, people come. And my business is healthy.

So I think it's more about creating something you feel energized and impassioned about and showing how that meets the needs of people interested in divination/the Yi/transformation. A bit of each approach as it were, without losing what I could feel in your description of the bigger package. Many "transformational" businesses go this direction and do just fine. ;-)

I wonder if this is the right crowd to ask? Many folks here are used to the free version and seem quite "expert" in the Yi. Are the folks in the current classes mostly drawn from folks currently actively participating in the forums or are they "fresh blood"? (What a horrible metaphor -- sorry...)

My initial thoughts/reactions to this discussion anyway.

I did vote ;-)
 

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