Random thoughts on randomness - or just random rambling

[jillc]

Hello Yet Again, Everyone

Sometimes I can be like a dog with a big, meaty soup bone, and I've been gnawing at the incredible relevance of the hexagram resulting from a mistake I made, reading 22 as 36. (Thanks again to Lindsay, Hilary, LiSe, and Candid for your invaluable insights).

So anyway, last night I got to thinking, perhaps every hexagram relates to every question, and that's why the "mistake" was so spot-on. As a test, I thought, I'll just open the book anywhere and see what turns up. Well, in its infinite wisdom, Yi sent me to 33, which restated, re-emphasized, and reinforced its earlier counsel. Wow. Sping-tingling. Awesome.

That was undoubtedly relevant, but were they all? So then I thought, why not just read the synopses from 1 through 64 and see if at least superficially they all apply to this problem. To my relief (but not surprise, really), they didn't! Some did, of course, to varying degrees, especially those I've received before, but most didn't. And there are many hexagrams I've NEVER received -- and I can see why: they really do not apply to any question I've ever asked. Receiving any of them would have baffled me utterly.

This little exercise was both enlightening and reassuring to me. (And my apologies to Yi if I seemed untrusting.)

I'd like to comment, too, on a discussion recently in which some of you said you've become so familiar with the hexagrams that you recognize them as they unfold. I hope that doesn't happen to me -- I hope I will always have to look up each one (even at the risk of an occasional "mistake") because I wouldn't want to possibly prejudice the result in any way. For me, I think a fair amount of ignorance is bliss.

So many of you here, the "elders" (not oldsters!), are so intelligent, wise, evolved, enlightened -- perhaps what's called "spiritual" (though I really dislike that word). By contrast, I feel raw and superficial and businesslike -- I just seek answers and guidance for my own petty concerns, not necessarily spiritual development. But despite my callowness, you all are so welcoming and generous and patient, treating me and all others who come here with respect and kindness, and I just want to say Thank You.

Hugs to all,
Jill

 

[hitchhiker]

Hi Jill

You know I had the same thought recently. About whether each hexagram may be applicable to my questions and thought of reading them all just to see. I haven't found the time for that yet, and am glad you found they didn't!

What I'm wondering is whether you (or anyone else) finds that the same hexagram keeps coming up with the questions you ask. I keep getting #8 in various occasions, so I'm just wondering if the Yi is trying to tell me something beyond the questions I'm asking....

hh

 

[jillc]

Hi Hitchhiker

I do find repeated instances of the same hexagram, or permutations or elaborations through different hexagrams. My inquiries, though, generally concern the same topic (a particular relationship), so it's not surprising that the same themes emerge repeatedly. It's that remarkable consistency that has fascinated, amazed, and convinced me that there's a Profound Source behind this.

I do think often you are given answers extending beyond the question you think you are asking -- or haven't asked yet. There have been lively discussions on that very topic here recently. The tricky part is figuring out what the unspoken question is!

Jill

 

[candid]

Hi Jill and Hitchhiker,

Every hexagram and change line contains a bit of relevant wisdom. You've already lived through years of cycles in these changes. Its no wonder they all seem familiar and can be applied somehow to any human circumstance. One can see a sunrise or sunset and derive value and personal meaning from it, if one is seeking. But you know when a sunset is as though it were served up especially for you. That moment in time, you have answers. To me, its like that with the Ching. I can read randomly and enjoy the value, but when I ask a specific question, it addresses with a very specific answer.

Jill, I agree that Yi will also address specifics which come up unexpectedly, or if I really need to see something more important than the question I'm asking.

Candid

 

[lindsay]

Dear Jill,

I am very glad your experiments with the Yi were successful. Perhaps you know that from Roman times on up through the Middle Ages (for more than 1000 years), there was a practice of divination in Europe called the sortes virgiliana, in which the querent opened Virgil's long epic poem the Aeneid at random, stabbed a finger on the page, and found the answer to her question in the passage thus selected. Today we call this technique bibliomancy, and it is still much practiced, especially with the Torah or Bible.

But why are you fooling around like this with the Yi? The Yi cannot be tested empirically. Sooner or later, if you persist, it will fail you. Embrace it. Trust it. Believe it. Use it. For all your experimentation, the Yi cannot be proved. It will never become less of a mystery for you or any of us. It is what it is.

Lindsay

 

[jillc]

Hi Candid and Lindsay

Candid, I have sometimes been overwhelmed with the specificity of the answers I receive, and grateful -- although I sometimes wish the answer had been different.

Lindsay, I am aware of the practice of bibliomancy but did not realize something similar had been practiced by the Romans as well. Ah, the value of a classical education!

I must take exception to your challenge that I am "fooling around." I believe my experiment was justifiable and born of a genuine desire to learn, not to debunk or disrespect the Yi.

Having grown up in an agnostic family, I am perhaps less inclined than those with deeper spiritual roots to accept on faith. Forgive my ignorance on biblical matters, but Jesus was patient with Thomas, wasn't he? And Thomas, his doubts allayed, became a stronger believer for it. Did Jesus love him any less because of his initial doubts?

As I've said here many times, I am constantly in awe of the rightness and appropriateness of the answers I am given. I do trust the answers; what I doubt is my own ability to interpret them.

That's why I come here.

Jill

 

[louise]

Hi Jill, earlier you said the tricky part was figuring out what the unspoken question was - never a truer word spoken. I'm currently in a cycle where the Yi gives me the same hexagrams often with same lines over and over and over again, and I STILL don't get it. It appears quite amazing how I'll throw the same hexagram 2 or 3 times in one sitting, so I know SOMETHING REAL is happening, but I still don't really get the meaning of the answer. Its like a code i just can't crack sometimes - even weirder when you get the same answer for lots of different questions - it must be as you say an elusive unspoken question we need to discover. I wonder if there is a way of meditating on the lines to penetrate the meaning - thinking isn't working too well..

 

[lindsay]

Dear Jill,

Well, ?fooling around? does sound a bit harsh, doesn?t it? And I?m sure it looks much harsher in print than was intended. I?m sorry, Jill, if I offended you. Perhaps I can explain myself in politer terms.

I do not think the Yi can be verified by experiment.

Yes, you say, but I have just done it! Perhaps, but other explanations are possible. Coincidence (not synchronicity), for example. The probability of certain events happening is often much greater than we imagine. For example, I was astonished to learn a short while ago there is a 50% chance that at least two individuals in any random group of 23 people will have the same birthday (month, day). Moreover, our methods are often non-random in nature. For example, I imagine most people who use bibliomancy tend to open the book somewhere in the middle. Opening at either end seems to limit the possibilities too much. But in fact opening a book in the middle has the same effect. Should I be surprised when you receive hexagram 33 by opening the Yi ?somewhere? in the middle? Truly, using your method, I would be astounded if you had selected, say, hexagram 2 or 64.

A long time ago, in the 1970?s and early 1980?s, I Ching divination was even more popular than it is today. In 1982 a popular economics journalist named Adam Smith published a book called ?Power of Mind,? in which he included a chapter describing a remarkable experiment with the Yi at a major US business graduate school. Somehow a graduate student was permitted to write his MBA thesis on the ability of the I Ching to predict fluctuations in the stock market. His results were incredible. For several months the Yi predicted the market with so much accuracy that an investor following its advice could become seriously rich. Professors at the business school suddenly became very excited. A secret group was formed to conduct further studies along scientific principles. At first, the results were consistent with those of the student. The Yi continued to predict the market with precision. The academic and practical implications of this ?discovery? were staggering. But suddenly, without warning, the Yi went cold. None of the predictions came true. The scholars kept at it for awhile, but the Yi continued to return dismally inaccurate predictions. The project was abandoned. People accustomed to being respected as economic authorities felt like fools. Everyone hoped news of what they had done would not leak out to the public. Then Adam Smith came along. . . .

I bring up all this, not to suggest the Yi does not work (I believe it does work), but to suggest that it cannot be tested and proven. I think the Yi can only be validated by individual experience. Jill uses the Yi, and it works for her. Louise uses the Yi, and it works for her. Candid uses the Yi, and it works for him. Good enough, no? Is this enough to prove objectively that the Yi works? Nope.

So it all comes down to a matter of belief. Faith. Scary, isn?t it? You either believe (most of the time) that the Yi works or you don?t. What is at play here is the same kind of irrational faith and trust many people put in their religion. Does anyone try to prove that Christianity or Judaism or Islam or Buddhism ?works?? Would you believe them if they did? In a sense, though, faith itself ?works.? You?re probably better off with it than without it.

I apologize again for being difficult,
Lindsay

 

[jillc]

Hi Louise and Lindsay

Thanks, Louise. It's comforting to know I'm not the only one who puzzles over the answers, especially repeated ones. Meditating might indeed be a good idea -- I'd be interested to know how that works for you, if you try it, and whether it results in any Aha! revelations.

Thanks for the explanation and examples, Lindsay -- what a fascinating story. Science suspends disbelief readily enough when big bucks may be inovlved, it seems.

Jill

 

[anita]

How beautifully put, Lindsay!

I wouldn't dream of putting the Yi to materialistic questions such as the stock market. I know instinctively that the Yi would not encourage that sort of questioning, being what it is.

As far as testing goes -- like many diviners, I tend to ask the same question many times -- maybe not the same day, because the passage of time may alter the possible outcome, and I have also received the same hexagrams at different times and through different methods. Sometimes I test because I wonder whether I have focussed deeply enough on the question, whether, some other questionI have in my mind is not being answered. To avoid this sort of confusion, I first ask the question which is paramount in my mind and then go on to the others.

I have learned to respect the Yi more and more over the years and now after joining this lovely group and getting involved with my spiritual path (Lao Tzu and Confucius were both masters of this path) I have ceased to plague the Yi with the same questions too often.

 

[lindsay]

Dear Jill and Anita,

Jill, I still feel bad about snapping at you and Django a couple of days ago. I should know better than to write postings when I?m feeling grumpy. And of course I?ve done my share of experimenting with the Yi in the past. Now I?m not wiser, just less open to exploring the range of possibilities.

I?m especially sorry because you said something in your original post I found intriguing. You said:

?Some of you said you've become so familiar with the hexagrams that you recognize them as they unfold. I hope that doesn't happen to me -- I hope I will always have to look up each one (even at the risk of an occasional "mistake") because I wouldn't want to possibly prejudice the result in any way.?

What interests me about this is the idea that imagining the emerging hexagram somehow produces it. By the time we cast the fourth or fifth line, the number of possible primary hexagrams is really quite limited. So if we see a hexagram begin to develop that seems especially appropriate to our situation (good or bad), do you think focusing on that hexagram influences the divination to create it? Do our expectations influence the actual act of divination?

Of course, this is a big problem with interpretation. At times I?ve twisted the elements of a divination every which way, broken every formal rule about the relationship between hexagrams, lines, and trigrams, to produce what I considered a plausible interpretation. Basically I tried to find what I expected to see. Who knows what the Yi was really trying to tell me?

But even before we get to that point, the point of interpreting and explaining, I think Jill is suggesting we may actually be influencing the outcome of the divination by our own expectations. If this is true, then the problem seems to be we cannot expect the unexpected ? and therefore it is difficult to learn anything new through divination.

Somewhat related to this fascinating observation is Anita?s remark: ?Sometimes I test because I wonder whether I have focused deeply enough on the question, whether, some other question I have in my mind is not being answered. To avoid this sort of confusion, I first ask the question which is paramount in my mind and then go on to the others.?

Haven?t we all had this feeling, that the Yi is really answering a question we didn?t ask, but care about deeply? Jill touched on this above, and it?s come up before. But Anita brings up an interesting variation. Suppose we sit down and ask two questions and perform two divinations. However, the answer to question A seems more appropriate to question B, and vice versa. Have we influenced the Yi to answer our questions in a different order than we asked them? Or has the Yi anticipated our real needs and desires?

In Jill?s case, we may be influencing the Yi to give us the answer we expect. In Anita?s case, the Yi may be disregarding our expectations by giving us the answer to the question we most want or need to ask. How can this be?

Maybe I?ll just flip a coin (heads = yes, tails = no) from now on.

Lindsay

 

[bfireman]

Lindsay-

I have been enjoying your posts, grumpy or not, and now you have raised even more interesting things to ponder. You touched on the idea of yi answering a question that is not really asked. This has always interested me, as sometimes it is so obvious what the divination is saying yet it has no relevence to the question. I don't denie this, just try and accept it, yet sometimes it really really confuses me. There are times I consult the yi with a very general question, so I am more willing to accept and be open to an interpreation that could pertain to any number of things. However, when I try to be as specific as possible about a question, event, person, situation, etc., and then the divination seems to relate to something totally different, whoaaaa. It really screws with my head. Usually I have to just sit on it and come back later to look again. Just last week I received a primary hex with two changing lines, 1 and 6, and it left me speechless how directly the yi commented on two completely separate things within the same hex. Of course, this is all my prejudiced interpreation... Anyway, in regards to your point about one influencing the outcome of a divination, that is really interesting, I have never thought about that. My whole philosophy was to just let it all go and simply accept and trust, so the notion of being able to influence the divination kind of throws a wrench in those assumptions. Probably, as one gets more in touch with that intangible creative force permeating their inner life, it becomes easier to predict what hex one may receive. Just thoughts... for now I will continue to simply trust. I don't see this as blind faith either, but more a faith based on a gradual unfolding of personal truths seen through the filter of experience.

namaste - Brian

 

[bfireman]

by the way-

I have been enjoying everyone's posts, not just Lindsay's...

namaste - Brian

 

[hitchhiker]

Hi everyone,

I second Brian's sentiments about enjoying everyone's posts. This discussion has addressed some questions I've been thinking about as well, esp wrt whether the Yi answers questions that haven't been asked.

Has anyone asked a specific question and the result seemed to contradict the outcome? Hypothetical example: if I ask "Will I get a raise?", and the answer seems to say yes, but then I don't, does it mean the Yi is drawing my attention to something else?

I don't mean to be a doubting thomas or anything, but am just curious about when we accept the answers as specific and when we do not, and when we may be adjusting the interpretation arbitrarily. Any thoughts?

Thanks

hh

 

[louise]

Hi, just wanted to share my experience of Yi this morning. I think I said elsewhere that I am so familiar with the hexagrams, that by the time I've thrown the 4th or 5th line I tend to anticipate the result, because as Lindsay pointed out by that time the possible outcome is quite limited. Hilary responded by saying she found this also but she did not think that it affected the results because the truth has a way of getting to you one way or another. If it is true that one is affecting the outcome, it surely doesn't matter that much, especially if you think the answers come from your higher self anyway. Its an amazing idea anyway - if I can determine how these coins fall, what else can I influence !!
The world could be my oyster... Anyway I digress, I just wanted to share my experience this morning..

In another thread here I am discussing receiving hex 14 with no moving lines - in a question relating to money. This morning I cast the coins again with the question asked from a slightly different angle and got 14 again, no moving lines.
That impressed me, being the 2nd time I'd recently received it. I immediatley asked another money related question, again from a slightly different angle (I thought)and as the hexagram unfolded before me as I threw the coins, my heart started to beat faster because it looked like I was going to throw it again, 14 no moving lines. And yes it did come up again - and I was quite stunned. Within the space of 10 minutes I'd thrown 14 with no moving lines twice ! Whilst i was doing the 2nd casting my heart was beating faster because I was a little over awed - it felt a little spooky - Yi really talking to me,
- not just a book and some coins...

In response to your question hh, about when the outcome is opposite to what the casting said - I think this just happens sometimes. For me there seems to be times when I'm in tune with the energy of the Yi and times when I am not. Almost like a phone line when sometimes the connection's not good, other times its crystal clear.

I personally feel its not intended that the Yi be consulted as some sort of ultimate authority in your life. This would detract from your autonomy - it is there to help. No teacher who really wanted to guide you and help you in your life would insist on your obedience - because the ultimate goal is that you grow into your fullest sense of SELF. I only say this because I sense that you quite rightly have reservations about the notion of handing over decision making to a source seemingly outside of your self. I guess the point I'm making is really YOU are always your ultimate authority, Yi just very kindly assists you if you would like.

I don't think you're a doubting Thomas - because there's no need to have any faith or belief - you don't have to surrender your autonomy to engage with the Yi - thank goodness !

Right, well, I'll get off my soap box now then

 

[anita]

This is to Brian's post--

I don't think we can influence the way the hexagrams build up by our wishes and desires. Last night I was casting again about him and when I saw the pattern off 44 building up -- yes I have drawn this again and again recently in the context of my relationship with him -- and instead of 44 it turned to 28!

And I'd caught myself thinking -- ah here's 44 again, but it didn't happen. If it our Higher Self
or Fu Hsi himself answering our questions, I don't think the outcome could be determined by whar we want to see.

My two bit

Best for your Quest

Anita