Reading the Hexagram on its own, without the text

[charly]

They all look happily stoned.

Am I wrong or it looks a little misogynist comment?
Something distateful, I believe.
Ch.

 

[charly]

... Yes I actually only know the Richard Wilhelm version so it might can be that different translators seeing things different. But forget this all because it is my opinion too so we don`t need books for to talk about the theme
...

Touché!

But I'm not polemizing with you,

I believe that's only a misunderstanding.

I've read the quote of Khalil Gibran with which you sign your posts and I like it.

(To be continued)


All the best,

Charly

 

[pocossin]

For the following 20 I referred to it mentally, constantly finding parallels with Biblical texts; a topic which I've found to be less than popular or appreciated when mentioned on this forum.

I have been reproved for numerous biblical allusions only once, which reproof I ignored.

 

[meng]

Am I wrong or it looks a little misogynist comment?
Something distateful, I believe.
Ch.

Yes, you're wrong. I wasn't even considering if they were female. Their puffy eyes and zoned out appearance is what I commented on, lightly. Geeze, Charly, lighten up. It's like you're on a crusade and feel women need defending. I think they're more than capable to make their own case, if a case even needs to be made about the principle of yang, without being interpreted as being misogynist.

 

[meng]

I have been reproved for numerous biblical allusions only once, which reproof I ignored.

What's your point?

 

[charly]

Yes, you're wrong. I wasn't even considering if they were female. Their puffy eyes and zoned out appearance is what I commented on, lightly. Geeze, Charly, lighten up. It's like you're on a crusade and feel women need defending. I think they're more than capable to make their own case, if a case even needs to be made about the principle of yang, without being interpreted as being misogynist.

Hi Bruce:

I apologize. Fortunately I was wrong. thanks for the explanation.

About women I'm not in a crusade only that I have opinions, or better, I got some alternative opinions and about the Changes I believe that a version partially deconfucianized should be more healthy.

And I got such ideas reading Wilhelm, of course, between lines.

All the best,


Charly

 

[forty two]

Wow you have been busy here,haha. I´m still at work and busy too, but I have got a moment off.

@meng: That`s interesting what you said about the bible. Richard Wilhelm also used content from the bible for to explain lines or hexagrams of the I Ching and I also see a lot of analogies.

I don`t know this Baynes translation but I`ve read this name often here at the forum so probably this version of the I Ching is the most popular? If "yes" I guess I should read it after I have read the english version of the Wilhelm version.

So you are a Christ Me too

I`m a christ, I`m a taoist, a buddhist, a yogi, a confucianist.....ahm forget something? Lol. No that`s all I guess. I think there is something like a main line going through all religions, something they have all in common, some basic thoughts and principle and I just follow this. If I follow this I have absolutly no problem to agree to different religions or philosophy. In basic it is all the same. That`s why I absolutely don`t understand how it is possible to have something like a holy war, really strange.

Yes, you're wrong. I wasn't even considering if they were female. Their puffy eyes and zoned out appearance is what I commented on, lightly. Geeze, Charly, lighten up. It's like you're on a crusade and feel women need defending. I think they're more than capable to make their own case, if a case even needs to be made about the principle of yang, without being interpreted as being misogynist.

Thanks again. You understand woman I never felt weak because of being a woman, never. I`m a kickboxer (really), I do technical repairs (machines, car, bycicle) mostly all by myself, I`m a philosoph and I can argue very male/tough (if necessary). I need no protection by a man. I am strong enough to protect myself and I guess this is the reason why I am not a womans libber: I simply don`t need it, because I don`t feel myself weak!!!

The only thing disturbing me a lot is that men earn more money than wymen that is fairly unfair and wrong. But apart from that I don`t feel myself in an unfavorable position at all.


@Charly: If you feel the need to protect the female principle you judging it as weak, you know? If it wouldn`t be weak there would be no reason for to protect it. If there is a need to protect it, it must be weak, you know? There is no need to protect something which is strong and able to help itself.

You are not the only one who thinks that the Richard Wilhelm translation is very ......old fashioned in the way that it seems the woman plays the second role or the weak role. But you also have given us a lot of examples where the Yin is VERY strong and so there is no reason for to feel uncapable for woman. Sometimes the Yin is at the top, sometimes the Yang. Also at the Richard Wilhelm I Ching

When I say the Yang rules so I mean the order of happening. The impuls, the first action is always Yang, never Yin and so it is the leading principle, it must be.

If you think in Yang as noble and in Yin as mean it is also better the mean get ruled by the noble, because what should happen if it would be other way round??? Hm? Haha. Unfortunatly it IS often other way round and so we see what sh.. happen then.

Everything is already perfect like it is, because nature is perfect. It is only the human who thinks everything must be improved. The I Ching is a mirror image of this perfection and I haven`t found anything misogynist into it. It depends all to our understanding, how we tend to understand something.

But I guess I understand what you mean concerning the I Ching. Actually in the beginning I also had the feeling: "Hm seems that woman had nothing much to say in old China", but that is only the first glance. If you dive in deeper, some informations like what Georg Zimmermann said about the woman, that the woman is the boss into the house, relativize things a bit again and also in the I Ching are a lot of examples when the Yin is at major position (5th line). So I think it is kind of balanced, if you look at the whole thing.

Lise`s Site: Yeah I took a look, but only a fast glance because I`m really in stress at the moment and if I read something at the internet it is the english version of the Richard Wilhelm translation because this is most important at the moment. Her site looks interesting, different from other I Ching sites and I will check it out from time to time, but can`t read all at the moment. Too much information at the moment *syntax, error, tilt* Lol.

Best wishes Yvonne

 

[Trojina]

I wonder how you can look at the familar yin/yang symbol, you know the circle where each side has within the seed of the other and still entertain the idea Yang has supremacy ? Doesn't that miss the whole point, the very basis of the Yi ?

Edited to add I'm seeing in particular here the word supremacy which has the following meaning from online dictionary

Edited to add I'm seeing in particular here the word supremacy which has the following meaning from online dictionary


Quote:
su·preme (s-prm)
adj.
1. Greatest in power, authority, or rank; paramount or dominant.
2. Greatest in importance, degree, significance, character, or achievement.
3. Ultimate; final: the supreme sacrifice.




Now I don't think Yang can be said to be more important than Yin or better.or vice versa..and I presume you don't (?).so I just wondered at the use of that word

Yvonne if you see my original post I'm not referring to men and women I'm referring to the use of the word 'supremacy' as applied to yang,,,,not men. No doubt its from Wilhelm yes, and elsewhere but it just struck me as an odd word to use when we consider that yin/yang symbol as neither is supreme. I mean I used the dictionary quote becasue supreme doesn't just mean different it actually means more important, better doesn't it ?

So how we got onto kickboxing and the weakness/strength of women I don't know....but my point remains neither yin nor yang can be said to be supreme, as I think fundamentally you agree elsewhere. So overall I think any difference in our POV here is likley to be mainly that you are using the language of Wilhelm or at least that you have been very heavily influenced by Wilhelms take on Yi.....thats all. Other than that I don't think we are disagreeing or talking about men and women here although it has been assumed by some that yang=men.

 

[meng]

@meng: That`s interesting what you said about the bible. Richard Wilhelm also used content from the bible for to explain lines or hexagrams of the I Ching and I also see a lot of analogies.

I'm a Joseph Campbell fan and I love his comment which almost summarizes his life's work: In the end, there is only one story of man, told in every culture, in every time period, with a different face.

I don`t know this Baynes translation but I`ve read this name often here at the forum so probably this version of the I Ching is the most popular? If "yes" I guess I should read it after I have read the english version of the Wilhelm version.

Wilhelm translated to German. Baynes translated the Wilhelm to English. I think this fellow deserves more credit than he typically receives, since the English version is written so elegantly.

As mentioned, I've mentally edited certain points of view, and take into consideration that Wilhelm's parents were Christian missionaries, and that his teacher/master practiced the Confucian philosophies and view of the IC. Those two influences are terribly outdated, and also came after the Yijing had been around a long time, pre-Confucius, and of course further from the time that Wilhelm showed up on the scene. So there's a lot in there that wasn't originally. Still, if one is capable of making these sort of adjustments to his philosophy regarding superior, supreme/inferior, etc, there is truth and poetic beauty through his version. But I consider it a pretty far cry from the original meanings, particularly when he didn't make a clear differentiation between metaphor and the literal, as he applied to the mores of his time.

So you are a Christ Me too

A kickboxing Christ; I love it!

 

[meng]

Hi Bruce:

I apologize. Fortunately I was wrong. thanks for the explanation.

About women I'm not in a crusade only that I have opinions, or better, I got some alternative opinions and about the Changes I believe that a version partially deconfucianized should be more healthy.

And I got such ideas reading Wilhelm, of course, between lines.

All the best,


Charly

We cool, my friend.

I find myself defending likewise sometimes. Not women so much but against the chauvinist point of view and interpretation of certain translations in cases such as 44. Yet, neither can I agree with the opposite, feminist point of view about it. It's symbols we're talking about, designed to explain our inner condition mostly. At least that how I read it.

:bows:

 

[meng]

Charly, I forgot to mention that a big part of the stoned impression is that they were musicians grooving. If they played to the gods, received their inspiration from the gods, then that alone would qualify them as stoned 16. But it was their puffy eyes that made me chuckle. It was a "I'll have what they're having!" moment.

 

[charly]

I... Wilhelm translated to German. Baynes translated the Wilhelm to English. I think this fellow deserves more credit than he typically receives, since the English version is written so elegantly.
...

Hi, Bruce:

Cary Baynes was the wife of the anthropoligist Jaime de Angulo, I believe friend of Ezra Pound. I don't remember how was she born. When she divorced, married with Baynes, known as Peter Baynes, a friend of Carl Jung and used to sign Cary F. Baynes.

Wilhelm gives to her (or maybe to Bollingen, I don't remember) the translation rights for almost nothing. The translation became a mine of revenues for Bollingen and later for Princeton, but that's another story.

Yours,


Charly

P.D.:

She was a Vassar Girl, born Cary Fink.
When her translation was published she was already divorced of Peter Baynes.

Ch.

 

[forty two]

@Charly: Especially for you I changed my avatar into an image of the MOON Hope you like it Lol. Sorry I`m just kidding In fact I like your gentlemen style, I appreciate it, because that are good manners for a man (woman like that ;-)), but really don`t worry too much about Yin, it will make it`s way same way like Yang. None of the two principles need help or support.

@All:Talk to you later, because I`m still busy.

 

[charly]

@Charly: Especially for you I changed my avatar into an image of the MOON Hope you like it Lol. Sorry I`m just kidding In fact I like your gentlemen style, I appreciate it, because that are good manners for a man (woman like that ;-)), but really don`t worry too much about Yin, it will make it`s way same way like Yang. None of the two principles need help or support.

@All:Talk to you later, because I`m still busy.

Hi, Yvonne:

I'm also busy, but I have write something for you, please, don't get upset!

The only thing disturbing me a lot is that men earn more money than wymen that is fairly unfair and wrong. But apart from that I don`t feel myself in an unfavorable position at all.

Don't worry, things are well as they are, you've said.

Christine Legarde earns much money than all the men of this forum together. Isn't balance it?

Of course, I don't believe in such SPECIALISTS and the Changes neither.

I remember a sequence, which I will look for assap, where the Changes says something like:

«... USING SPECIALIST THERE WILL BE A GREAT DEFEAT.
AND TEN YEARS UNABLE FOR LEVYING TAXES. HORRIBLE!»​

I believe that the hanges was speaking of the IMF and the submissive governments.

Yours,


Charly

 

[forty two]

@charly:

Hi, Yvonne:

I'm also busy, but I have write something for you, please, don't get upset!

Lol, no, I don`t get upset, I swear *miss an angel smilie*.

Don't worry, things are well as they are, you've said.

Christine Legarde earns much money than all the men of this forum together. Isn't balance it?

Of course, I don't believe in such SPECIALISTS and the Changes neither.

I remember a sequence, which I will look for assap, where the Changes says something like:

«... USING SPECIALIST THERE WILL BE A GREAT DEFEAT.
AND TEN YEARS UNABLE FOR LEVYING TAXES. HORRIBLE!»​

I believe that the hanges was speaking of the IMF and the submissive governments.

Yours,


Charly

Because everything has to keep to the eternal law, everything is already perfect. From the point of view of normal human being it is not, because we are normally not able to see ALL the WHOLE thing same time.

We tend to only pick out some fragments of the whole and tend to valuate the pieces and compare them to each other and so we see the world in separated pieces although in truth everything is connected to each other and in relation to each other and all this happens according to the eternal law. God`s ways are above our ways. It is more trust than knowing to stay calm into this mess called live. So: I agree Charly but neverthless I don`t become too much nervous about it. There is might be a sense in all, we just can`t see by watching the surface and the pieces.
:bows:

@trojan:

Yvonne if you see my original post I'm not referring to men and women I'm referring to the use of the word 'supremacy' as applied to yang,,,,not men. No doubt its from Wilhelm yes, and elsewhere but it just struck me as an odd word to use when we consider that yin/yang symbol as neither is supreme. I mean I used the dictionary quote becasue supreme doesn't just mean different it actually means more important, better doesn't it ?

Hi trojan, concerning the Yin/Yang Symbol you are absolutely right, because the Yin/Yang symbol shows the balanced condition of Yin and Yang. What I talk about is the dynamic process. The changes. The book of changes is about the dynamic interaction of Yin and Yang, about Yin/Yang in action, in motion.

For motion there is a difference needed. I`m just talking about simple physical laws. Meng explained it very well with the example of electricity. But the Yin/Yang in motion is also Yin/Yang theory.

So how we got onto kickboxing and the weakness/strength of women I don't know....

Just for having a bit smalltalk with meng and charly, you can call it offtopic, if you like. Hope this is allowed, because if not I would start to feel myself like being in NEW (present) China.

but my point remains neither yin nor yang can be said to be supreme, as I think fundamentally you agree elsewhere.

Yep.

So overall I think any difference in our POV

What means POV?

here is likley to be mainly that you are using the language of Wilhelm or at least that you have been very heavily influenced by Wilhelms take on Yi.....thats all.

As I already said: I haven`t got another source until now. But I have a question: You all talked about different versions of the I Ching and different translations and so on. There shall be some which are not so "negative" with Yin as charly said.... my question: At all these other I Chings is there hexagram 1. Ch`ien also at the first site of the book? Is it in each other I Ching also the first hexagram? Because if "Yes" I really wonder what we are talking about.

Other than that I don't think we are disagreeing or talking about men and women here although it has been assumed by some that yang=men.

We do both same time. We talk about men and woman and we talk about the pure principles. I like this discussion or better said: Talk. It`s intresting, I have no problem with it.

@meng:

I'm a Joseph Campbell fan and I love his comment which almost summarizes his life's work: In the end, there is only one story of man, told in every culture, in every time period, with a different face.

I must confess I don`t know Joseph Campbell, but I will look it up at the internet. Thanks.

Wilhelm translated to German. Baynes translated the Wilhelm to English. I think this fellow deserves more credit than he typically receives, since the English version is written so elegantly.

Thanks for the information.

As mentioned, I've mentally edited certain points of view, and take into consideration that Wilhelm's parents were Christian missionaries, and that his teacher/master practiced the Confucian philosophies and view of the IC. Those two influences are terribly outdated, and also came after the Yijing had been around a long time, pre-Confucius, and of course further from the time that Wilhelm showed up on the scene. So there's a lot in there that wasn't originally. Still, if one is capable of making these sort of adjustments to his philosophy regarding superior, supreme/inferior, etc, there is truth and poetic beauty through his version. But I consider it a pretty far cry from the original meanings, particularly when he didn't make a clear differentiation between metaphor and the literal, as he applied to the mores of his time.

And again: Thanks for the information. But where can I find an originally version in english or even in german? So that I could get an idea of it, of the original I Ching?

A kickboxing Christ; I love it!

Lol, and I love the picture. Great I will download it and take it as my next avatar,haha. Damned, this would have been a great nickname for me too: Kickboxing Jesus,lol. To be honest: I`m not active as a kickboxer now, because I became too old for this "fun". I have to care about my wonderful, beautiful face (at least the rest of it ;-)) and so I can`t affort doing kickboxing in an active way at my age But I have a pretty nice Sandbag and I recommend it highly to all who have stress, sandbags are sooooooooooo great

Having great fun with you here, nice to meet you......... brother

Best wishes Yvonne

 

[meng]

A pleasure to meet you too, Yvonne.

As I'd mentioned earlier, I don't know if there is a one official Yijing available to us. I think not, or else why would so many versions be floating about, no two identical? Then there are the various commentaries, which, as wonderful as the author's thoughts on a given hexagram or line may be, are nonetheless not part of the actual text, this includes Wilhelm's editions.

I suspect one of the more scholarly and informed,though not an easy breezing lightweight to skim through, would be Bradford Hatcher's, available as a free online download, I believe planned to be a book is in the works. His commentary require an investment of concentration as fine points are sometimes subtle. LiSe's is another very worthwhile translation and commentary with a unique and early historical reference to oracle bone inscriptions. Talking some primitive stuff here, but essential. Though I don't have her book yet, Hilary, the owner of this site, has her own translation with commentary, which from what little I've read is a reflection of Hilary's practical and sensible approach to understanding each hexagram and their interactions. She also offers courses for the more studious among us.

There are plenty of references, some better than others. But I don't know if there is a one single absolutely original Yijing still in existence.

Best wishes on your journey. :bows:

 

[forty two]

Hi meng,
thank you very much. I downloaded the free pdf from Bradford and will check it out by time. Yes, I guess if one wishes to read the original I Ching he/she has to speak chinese.

Another way for all who don`t like to learn chinese language is probably to read as many translations and interpretations as possible for to see the whole picture. Georg Zimmermann is sinologist and he also not agree to each word Richard Wilhelm translated. So there are differences. Probably because a chinese "word" has different meanings and so there is some space for interpretation.

A while ago I had been in a Taoist forum and they actually had a very tough argument about different translations of the Tao Te King. That has been no fun, because I also had only the translation of Richard Wilhelm and they don`t liked him much, so I have had hard times there, lol.

They prefered a translation by Hans Georg Möller and in fact the meaning of both translations Möller/Wilhelm is different, or better said: Can be understood different, so there actually was a good basis for an argument. What a pity.

I think it is better to try to understand the SENSE then to thump on the directly word meaning. If one starts to thump on the word meaning, the argument is born because in each language one and the same word often has different meanings.

Do I understand you right that the content on Lise`s site is also a translation and not only an interpretation?

I will buy the book of Hilary, but I won`t pay for courses. I`m not a millionaire and apart from that I prefer real paper, means real books. So I also would rather tend to buy the book of Bradford then to read hundred pdf files, lol. I don`t like reading at the pc screen much. In fact I hate it. I love PAPER So: I will check out the pdf file from Bradford a little bit and if I like it, I would tend to order the book.

I actually considered about to buy an e-book reader but.... I guess I`m old fashioned, lol. As long as real books are available I tend to read real books.

I wish you also the best on your journey :bows:

Yvonne

 

[meng]

Hi Yvonne,

Modern Chinese is of only limited use to understanding the language the Yijing's authors used, so learning modern Chinese may prove helpful, but it can also be misleading, as meanings of words change, especially colloquialisms and idioms of that period. Just imagine how some of our contemporary words and phrases in English might be interpreted 2,500+ years from now, especially if we didn't leave a gazillion reference dictionaries behind to make it easier to translate. I'll use a little street slang to illustrate.

"That gig rocked, it was sooo bad. Did you dig the chick wearing stilettos onstage? I'd hit that in a heartbeat!"

Ok, imagine the word-nerds trying to figure out what the heck that all meant. Granted, the Yi authors probably weren't street hip hop rappers, but I'm sure meanings of words and expressions, even within the same language, would be extremely hard to sort out, and they could never be absolutely sure in every case. That's why there are so many Yijing translations with varied commentaries. That's why I think we each have to learn not only from available reading material and discussions but from from closely following our reading after we've received our answer, repeatedly contemplating how Yi's answer addressed the question. It's not a simple thing though, as each hexagram can have a wide variety of implications. That's where our more subtle but sharpened cognitive skills and intuition come to play. But it's also where meanings can get lost or twisted if relied on exclusively.

 

[cjgait]

Totally agree that ancient and modern languages differ greatly. In fact there are several layers between the time when the Zhouyi was created and today. For instance all the language about sacrifices, including human sacrifice, that were in the ancient text and totally 'reimaged' in later layers. Due to the overloaded nature of Chinese characters the same word in the same text can mean something else entirely in a later age. Many revelations have come from the Oracle Bones of the Shang and Zhou, expanding our view of early China greatly.

But modern Chinese is a wonderful thing to learn both for the study of the Yi and the great sea of Chinese literature and history. For one thing, most of the thousands of books published on the Yi in China since the end of the Cultural Revolution are in modern Chinese, simplified orthography.

Learning Chinese is, at least for me, a lifetime work; since I started late and have no teacher. But with the wonderful computer tools available, particularly Pleco on mobiles and tablets, learning is greatly amplified and accelerated.

 

[forty two]

@meng:

Hi Yvonne,

Modern Chinese is of only limited use to understanding the language the Yijing's authors used, so learning modern Chinese may prove helpful, but it can also be misleading, as meanings of words change, especially colloquialisms and idioms of that period. Just imagine how some of our contemporary words and phrases in English might be interpreted 2,500+ years from now, especially if we didn't leave a gazillion reference dictionaries behind to make it easier to translate. I'll use a little street slang to illustrate.

"That gig rocked, it was sooo bad. Did you dig the chick wearing stilettos onstage? I'd hit that in a heartbeat!"

Ok, imagine the word-nerds trying to figure out what the heck that all meant. Granted, the Yi authors probably weren't street hip hop rappers, but I'm sure meanings of words and expressions, even within the same language, would be extremely hard to sort out, and they could never be absolutely sure in every case. That's why there are so many Yijing translations with varied commentaries.

I agree

That's why I think we each have to learn not only from available reading material and discussions but from from closely following our reading after we've received our answer, repeatedly contemplating how Yi's answer addressed the question. It's not a simple thing though, as each hexagram can have a wide variety of implications. That's where our more subtle but sharpened cognitive skills and intuition come to play. But it's also where meanings can get lost or twisted if relied on exclusively.

Couldn`t have say it better, that is exactly my own conclusion too :bows:

@cjgait:

Totally agree that ancient and modern languages differ greatly. In fact there are several layers between the time when the Zhouyi was created and today. For instance all the language about sacrifices, including human sacrifice, that were in the ancient text and totally 'reimaged' in later layers. Due to the overloaded nature of Chinese characters the same word in the same text can mean something else entirely in a later age. Many revelations have come from the Oracle Bones of the Shang and Zhou, expanding our view of early China greatly.

Thanks for this information

But modern Chinese is a wonderful thing to learn both for the study of the Yi and the great sea of Chinese literature and history. For one thing, most of the thousands of books published on the Yi in China since the end of the Cultural Revolution are in modern Chinese, simplified orthography.

Learning Chinese is, at least for me, a lifetime work; since I started late and have no teacher. But with the wonderful computer tools available, particularly Pleco on mobiles and tablets, learning is greatly amplified and accelerated.

You learn chinese by yourself, without teacher???? Wow, respect :bows: I find it intresting too, but I absolutly don`t have the time for such a challenge. Maybe when I`m retired

Best wishes Yvonne

 

[charly]

Charly, I forgot to mention that a big part of the stoned impression is that they were musicians grooving. If they played to the gods, received their inspiration from the gods, then that alone would qualify them as stoned 16. But it was their puffy eyes that made me chuckle. It was a "I'll have what they're having!" moment.

Hi, Buce:

They look STONED because they aren't but ICONS, but the original models were of FLESH AND BONE, and maybe they looked even ENJOYABLE.

『18-4』 齊人歸女樂、季桓子受之、三日不朝、孔子行。

​

Confucius' Analects.

[18:4] The people of Qi sent Lu a present of girl musicians. Ji Huan (ruler of Lu) received them, and for three days did not hold court. Confucius left.

Charles Müller translation.
http://www.acmuller.net/con-dao/analects.html

Chinese characters and common meanings:

齊 Qi : [surname / name of a state]
人 ren2 : man / men / people /
歸 gui1 : to return / to give back /
女 nü3 : female / woman / young woman / daughter /
樂 le4 // yue4: happy / glad / enjoyable // music /

季桓 Ji4Huan2 : [surname]
子 Zi3 : Count / Viscount / earl /
受 shou4 : to receive / to accept /
之 zhi1 : ...'s / it / his / her / their // to go /

三 san1 : three /
日 ri4 : sun / day / date /
不 bu4 : no / not /
朝 chao2 : court or assembly held by a ruler / audience /

孔子 kong3zi3 : KongZi = Confucius
行 xing2 / xing4 : to move / to walk/ to go // behavior / conduct /
​

QI PEOPLE RETURNED FEMALE MUSICIANS
The State os Qi sent a gift of enjoyable ladies,

JI-HUAN RULER ACCEPTED THEM
... the ruler Ji Huan accepted it.

THREE DAYS NO COURT [AUDIENCES]
[As a consequence for] three days there were no audience at the court.

KONZI MOVED.
Confucius went with his music elsewhere.

​

See that the original said to return / to give back instead of to gift, the idea might be that Qi people were returning in part the blessings received fom the Count Ji-Huan, maybe for the so called «protection».

See also that the same words can mean FEMALE MUSICIANS or ENJOYABLE LADIES, instead of making a gift of music records [still not invented] the people of Qi sent MUSICIANS OF FLESH AND BONE, which, of course, had inclinations not only for music. The same happened to the ruler.

Why did KongZi move? Maybe the music was LASCIVE or the girls were not PRETTY enough for him. He lost the feast. Maybe he was waiting for audience or was not willing of waiting for the musicians.

Nobody's perfect.


Yours,


Charly

 

[cjgait]

Why did KongZi move? Maybe the music was LASCIVE or the girls were not PRETTY enough for him. He lost the feast. Maybe he was waiting for audience or was not willing of waiting for the musicians.

Nobody's perfect.


Yours,


Charly

I hope this summation is humorous or it is quite offensive in what it infers. Kongzi left because the ruler counted carnal pleasures of greater importance than court affairs. The duke turned his duties inside out, giving himself over entirely to the 'inner' doings of the palace and ignoring the 'outer' duties without which the country rapidly declines into chaos and weakness. To turn this around and assert that Kongzi was somehow involved with the entertainers is vulgar. I'm not saying he wasn't human. We have the verse in which he exclaims: "I have yet to meet a man who is as fond of virtue as he is of beautiful women" (Analects 9:18). But this is a matter of balance. The duke let his natural urges as a man outweigh his duty to govern the state. In the Confucian world model that is sufficient to lose the advise of the Master. Thus Kongzi left to find a more worthy ruler to advise.

 

[charly]

Hi, Bruce:

I apologize. I was not willing to offend people and you less than anybody. Only that sometimes I don't resist to exhibit some evidence of the human weakeness.

You call it knowledge exhibition, but it's actually ignorance exhibition for I can't have the time for exploring deeper the things about which I speak. (1)

I believe that I was not disrespectful with Confucius but with the imperial power that deitized him and whose last incarnation are the actual chinese political ruling classes, the last dynasty.

I apologize if I've hurted you.

Charly

_________________
(1) Time that, of course, never will be enough because life is short and the Changes is f_cking large.
Ch.

 

[charly]

I hope this summation is humorous or it is quite offensive in what it infers. Kongzi left because the ruler counted carnal pleasures of greater importance than court affairs. The duke turned his duties inside out, giving himself over entirely to the 'inner' doings of the palace and ignoring the 'outer' duties without which the country rapidly declines into chaos and weakness. To turn this around and assert that Kongzi was somehow involved with the entertainers is vulgar. I'm not saying he wasn't human. We have the verse in which he exclaims: "I have yet to meet a man who is as fond of virtue as he is of beautiful women" (Analects 9:18). But this is a matter of balance. The duke let his natural urges as a man outweigh his duty to govern the state. In the Confucian world model that is sufficient to lose the advise of the Master. Thus Kongzi left to find a more worthy ruler to advise.

Hi, Crist:

Maybe what I've said sounds humorous, but it was not, of course, a joke.

I've nothing against Confucius but against his pretended perfection, invoked by people that doesn't follow his teachings.

Consider the lack of humaneness (the confucian virtue of ren) implied in the fact of feeling offended by allusions to the Master's lack of perfection while saying nothing about a culture that treats women like things or commodities, fating them to be violated in their human / sexual rights which, maybe, is seen as natural.

And that happens even in our times, when women traffic industry moves so many million dollars, comparable with war or drugs traffic.

Maybe I will be said that if things are so, they are well so. But, did Confucius teach it? I believe not.

He was always trying to better the practices os his time, even when he was unable for getting results.

About analects 9.18, it was translated so:

The Master said: I have yet to see a man who loved virtue as much as sex.​

Robert Eno,
Indiana Universsity

It was the rendering of Professor Eno who also said: «... there are, and always have been, competing interpretations of many of the most engaging passages in the text, starting from passage 1.1».

I apologize with you, but I expect you may understand that I was not disrespectful with some images more than reality is disrespectful with actual human beings.

All the best,


Charly

P.D.:
I have the hypothesis that when the Changes was written, half a milennium before Confucius was born, people was more concerned with sexual metaphors than wit ethical considerations. I always thinked of Analects 9.18 as an evidence. And I have the feeling that so passed even in the ruling classes.

What, of course, doesn't impede that the Changes have his own moral sense although sometimes conflictive with later imperial morality.

Ch.

 

[cjgait]

I do not say that Kongzi was perfect, neither did he. I can't see how someone can read the Analects and other sources on Kongzi such as the Li Ji and conclude that Kongzi considered himself perfect. The text is peppered with Kongzi's evaluations of his own failings and achievements.

But this statement of yours goes beyond imperfection and into insulting innuendo:

"Why did KongZi move? Maybe the music was LASCIVE or the girls were not PRETTY enough for him. He lost the feast. Maybe he was waiting for audience or was not willing of waiting for the musicians."

His motivations in the Lunyu passage are indeed established by 2,500 years of commentary and thought about Kongzi ranging from the sycophantic to the skeptical. So if you want to strike off on your own with an insulting view to denigrate the Master, fine. You most certainly aren't the first and shan't be the last. But to infer that Kongzi had an interest in the entertainment, rather than concern that the duke was falling for the old 'dancing girl trick' which was a common gambit used on clueless rulers in ancient China, is to simply misread the passage. To misread the passage shows a lack of understanding of the context of the situation.

Eno's translation of Analects 9:18 is fine, IMO. Sex is exactly what the passage infers. The other translations just soften the tone of it in the interest of decorum, perhaps excessive decorum.

 

[bluprplsage]

I mainly work with the trigrams and lines of the hexagrams, I hardly look at the text. Especially when I do consultations for others the trigrams often describe the most important elements of the situations pretty well.

During the lecture I gave last Thursday in Brugge, Belgium, there was a lady who asked with to do about her 'leg problem'. She did not specify the nature of this problem, but the Yi replied with hexagram 37, which consists of Wind over Fire. She had the 1st, 5th and 6th line moving. I told her that Fire referred to an inflammation, and that Wind prevented the healing - progress would be very slow, and the first line suggested that she should seek another form of treatment. The moving top lines urged her not to wait too long as the situation had reached his climax. Waiting would result in irreversible damage. The lady told me that she had an open wound which she tried to heal with alternative methods but for several weeks there wasn't any change. She was hesitant to use Western medicines, but I urged her to go to the doctor asap.

A mother asked why she couldn't get along well with her son. She received hexagram 10, Heaven over Lake. I often see the lower trigram as a representation of the questioner, and the upper trigram as the other party (if there is one), or the outside world etc. I told her that the lower trigram could indicate a desire to keep the relation as enjoyable as possible, but that this was difficult because the son put himself in the position of the father (the upper trigram), making the mother-son relationship imbalanced. This was acknowledged by the lady, who said that her husband, the father of her son, had passed away some time ago.

The father figure was also apparent in the answer for another woman, who asked how she could move on in the mourning process she had been struggling with the last three years. She didn't say which person the mourning was about, but she received a hexagram with Heaven as lower trigram (I can't recall the upper trigram). I told her that the hexagram indicated that she was very much occupied by the relationship with her father, and she confirmed that it was her father who had died three years ago.

The trigrams often give the connection with the situation, which can be the starting point for the change that most people desire when they use the Yi.

Thanks for this! very interesting way to read it. Did you use the plum blossom method to derive these hexagrams?

 

[bluprplsage]

I look at the lines like yes and no's, positive's and negatives, yang and yin's. to me more yang lines means a more positive answer but it all depends on the position of the lines.... Here's what I look at:

1.Are they in their correct positions? (Yang lines in Yang places, Yin lines in Yin places, aka Yang lines in 1st,3rd,5th. Yin Lines in 2nd,4th,6th.)
2.Do they respond auspiciously to their corresponding lines? (1st&4th line, 2nd&5th line, 3rd&6th line. They respond auspiciously if they're a pair of yin&yang yao. 2 yin/2 yang lines do not correspond)
3.Is your moving line in a auspicious location? (2nd&5th lines, middle of trigram)
4.How does the moving line/s relate to the primary hexagram?(Is it in a correct position? Do they respond auspiciously to their corresponding lines?)
5.How does the lower moving line relate with the upper moving lines? (correct position? do they correspond?)
6.How does each yao relates to each positions overall nature? Yang lines mean go, Yin means stop. If looked at from top to bottom it's spiritual to physical. But generally for divination we read it bottom to top to understand what the situation will become.Each Line also represents a body part which helps for visualization.

line6. Outermost situation/Spiritual/brains
line5. Ideals/Structure/Face, upper back, neck
line4. Decisions/Direction/Spine, arms
line3.Emotions/Stomach,Heart
line2.Reactions/Interactions with others/legs
Line1.Physical world/feet

5.Do the trigram's elements help or hinder one another?(upper trigram/outer situation/other party helps or hinders lower trigram/inner situation/personal and vice versa)
6.What is each moving lines new hexagram? Are they in the correct position in the new hexagram? does it correspond with it's corresponding lines in the new hexagram?
7.Each new hexagram from the bottom moving line to the top is seen as each segment of the evolving situation, from past to present. The primary hexagram represents the current situation, the moving lines new hexagrams represent how the situation will change from the bottom moving lines new hexagram to the tops.
8.add up all the correct positions for the primary and new hexagrams you've formed, corresponding lines vs not correct positions, not corresponding lines to calculate the fortune/misfortune of the overall reading. Also look at the elemental interaction of the trigrams to calculate which will bring misfortune and for who? outer trigram hurts inner trigram? means someone/thing hurts person divining/divining for, perhaps?Inner trigram hurts outer trigram vice versa? Look at the overall interaction of elements from the primary and new hexagram. Weigh this alongside the correct positions/corresponding lines/moving lines in 2nd&5th place(the central place for a moving line) to get a stronger reading of misfortune/fortune of situation.
9. Look at each hexagrams(primary&new) lines correct positions, corresponding lines, moving lines in central places along with elemental interactions, separately to determine a step by step detailed reading of present situation to completed situation of the divination.

 

[hmesker]

Thanks for this! very interesting way to read it. Did you use the plum blossom method to derive these hexagrams?

Oh no, that would be way too complicated for the audience. I let them throw the coins, they found that hard enough already

HM

 

[weiwuwei]

Does anyone else here read the hexagrams on their own? I feel kind of alone here reading through the (nonetheless insightful) comments...

I often go by visualizing the trigrams based on their description in the Shuo Kua and how the "above" trigram and "below" trigram interact. Sometimes it's a lot better and more accurate than the written Wen/Zhou written material.

One time I got a #17 "Following" for a protest-type event at DC I attended - the thunder at the bottom seemed to show our shouts and applause during a terrible rainy day outside, and the lake above seemed to imply that "the above" was happy with our work while remaining calm.

 

[charly]

I do not say that Kongzi was perfect, neither did he. I can't see how someone can read the Analects and other sources on Kongzi such as the Li Ji and conclude that Kongzi considered himself perfect. The text is peppered with Kongzi's evaluations of his own failings and achievements.

But this statement of yours goes beyond imperfection and into insulting innuendo:

"Why did KongZi move? Maybe the music was LASCIVE or the girls were not PRETTY enough for him. He lost the feast. Maybe he was waiting for audience or was not willing of waiting for the musicians."

His motivations in the Lunyu passage are indeed established by 2,500 years of commentary and thought about Kongzi ranging from the sycophantic to the skeptical. So if you want to strike off on your own with an insulting view to denigrate the Master, fine. You most certainly aren't the first and shan't be the last. But to infer that Kongzi had an interest in the entertainment, rather than concern that the duke was falling for the old 'dancing girl trick' which was a common gambit used on clueless rulers in ancient China, is to simply misread the passage. To misread the passage shows a lack of understanding of the context of the situation.

Eno's translation of Analects 9:18 is fine, IMO. Sex is exactly what the passage infers. The other translations just soften the tone of it in the interest of decorum, perhaps excessive decorum.

Try to read betwenn lines:

In a highly ritualized society like that of the Zhou, characterizaed by a diffused religiosity, a MEAT DIET was not only the mark of status, it had a religious significance.

It must be understood in the context of blood sacrifice. According to his biographer, Sima Qian, Confucius resigned from his position as minister of justice not when the sovereign, occupied by the beauties sent him by the kingdom of Qi in order to separate him from the sage, neglected to attend the council of ministers, but when he forgot to give the dignataries their share of MEAT after the great suburban sacrifice to Heaven.

Jean Levi: The rite, the Norm and the Dao.
HdO Early Chinese Religion ed. John Lagerwey & Marc Kalinowsli, p 645.

... their share of MEAT!

CH.