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Recommendations for the Book of Odes - Shi Jing, or Shih-Ching

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Freedda

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I'm wondering if anyone has any recommended English translations of the Book of Odes, or Shih-Ching, (also, the Classic of Poetry, Book of Songs) .... I have found two bi-lingual (Chinese/English) online versions:

https://ctext.org/book-of-poetry

http://chinesenotes.com/shijing.html

... and also a Kindle versions (for $3US). The English translations I believe are all from James Legge.

Are there any other translations / versions anyone would recommend?

Thanks, all the best ....
 
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michuco

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Hi Freedda,

My favourite translation of the Book of Odes would be Stephen Owen's but he only translated a few. I go back and forth between Pound and Waley (with inclination to Pound) and these are my main go-tos. The old translation by Jenning is hit and miss for me and I don't really like the new bilingual version by Ha Poong Kim that much. May be he follows the original closer, but many didn't hit me. Besides, or a bilingual literal translation you could get Karlgren's version from wiki. I haven't read Legge's version.

Cheers,

Michuco
=======

Poem 76:
Waley:
======

I beg of you, Chung Tzu,
Do not climb into our homestead,
Do not break the willows we have planted.
Not that I mind about the willows,
But I am afraid of my father and mother.
Chung Tzu I dearly love;
But of what my father and mother say
Indeed I am afraid.

I beg of you, Chung Tzu,
Do not climb over our wall,
Do not break the mulberry-trees we have planted.
Not that I mind about the mulberry-trees,
But I am afraid of my brothers.
Chung Tzu I dearly love;
But of what my brothers say
Indeed I am afraid.

I beg of you, Chung Tzu,
Do not climb into our garden,
Do not break the hard-wood we have planted.
Not that I mind about the hard-wood,
But I am afraid of what people will say.
Chung Tzu I dearly love;
But of all that people will say
Indeed I am afraid.
Pound:
======

Hep-Cat Chung, 'ware my town,
don't break my willows down.
The trees don't matter
but father's tongue, mother's tongue
Have a heart, Chung,
it's awful.
Hep-Cat Chung, don't jump my wall
nor strip my mulberry boughs.
The boughs don't matter
But my brother's clatter!
Have a heart, Chung,
it's awful.

Hep-Cat Chung, that is _my_ garden wall
Don't break my sandalwood tree.
The trees don't matter
But subsequent chatter!
Have a heart, Chung,
it's awful.
Kim:
===
Please, Zhongzi,
Don't climb over the village wall
Don't break the willow-trees we have planted.
Not that I am concerned with them,
I am afraid of my parents.
I love you Zhongzi,
But I am afraid
Of what my parents will say.
Please, Zhongzi,
Don't climb over our fence
Don't break the mulberry-trees we have planted.
Not that I am concerned with them,
I am afraid of my brothers.
I love you Zhongzi,
But I am afraid
Of what my borthers will say.
Please, Zhongzi,
Don't climb into our garden,
Don't break the spindle-trees we have planted.
Not that I am concerned with them,
I am afraid of what peole say.
I love you Zhongzi,
But I am afraid
Of what peole will say.
 

charly

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I'm wondering if anyone has any recommended English translations of the Book of Odes, or Shih-Ching, (also, the Classic of Poetry, Book of Songs) .... I have found two bi-lingual (Chinese/English) online versions:
https://ctext.org/book-of-poetry
http://chinesenotes.com/shijing.html
... and also a Kindle versions (for $3US). The English translations I believe are all from James Legge.
Are there any other translations / versions anyone would recommend?
Thanks, all the best ....
Hi David:

The english translation I use to recommend is "The Book of Songs" by Arthur Waley that is available in Google Books as parcial preview. There are also many sites offering the pdf complee book under different conditions.

Among online chinese texts with english translations I believe that the more reliable and useful is that of "Chinese Text Poject" where can switch from traditional chinese to simplified and brings Legge translation and many functionalities for those interested in translation.

Another reliable source, also traditional chinese and Legge is that of "Virginia University".
The english translations given there are:
  1. Arthur Waley. The Book of Songs: Translated by Arthur Waley, Edited with Additional Translations by Joseph R. Allen, New York: Grove Press, 1996
  2. ShiJing: Translated by YunZhong Xu, Edited by ShengZhang Jiang, Hunan, China: Hu Nan Chu Ban She, 1993
  3. William Jennings. The Shi King: The Old "Poetry Classic" of the Chinese, New York: Paragon Book, 1969
  4. Ezra Pound. The Classic Anthology Defined by Confucius, Cambridge: Harvard U Press, 1954
  5. Bernhard Karlgren. The Book of Odes, Stockholm: The Museum of Far Eastern Antiquities, 1950
Source: Virginia Univerity

Jennings and Karlgren are both available in Archive Org.

Pound has a parcial revue in Google Books and maybe in the web.

All the best,

Charly
 
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F

Freedda

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My favourite translation of the Book of Odes would be Stephen Owen's .... I go back and forth between Pound and Waley ... these are my main go-tos. The old translation by Jenning is hit and miss ... and I don't really like the new bilingual version by Ha Poong Kim
Thank you so much. I'll check these out. I may be able to see samples on Amazon or get them through inter-library loan, whenever my library starts doing that again.

As to the ones you mention, do you have a sense of which might lean more towards translation, versus interpretation? A pretty broad and perhaps non-specific destinction I realize. But by way of example, I assume that Pound's version would be more poetic and perhaps less a 'pure' translation?

Again, thanks. All the best ....

PS - I found a PDF version of Karlgren's so I have a good place to start I think.
 
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charly

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HI David:

Another source for translations of the Shijing is the english version of Marcel Granet available also in Archive.Org: "Festivals And Songs Of Ancient China".

As a sample, the first poem of the Shijing where the Granet's "mouettes" are translated with the usual "ospreys":
Source:
Marcel Granet; Festivals ansd Songs of Ancient China,
translated from the french by E.D.Edwards.
Link: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.38421

There is another online source that brings by default the chinese text, the english translation by Legge and the french by Marcel Granet: the Wen Gu, here.

All the best,

Charly
 

michuco

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Thank you so much. I'll check these out. I may be able to see samples on Amazon or get them through inter-library loan, whenever my library starts doing that again.

As to the ones you mention, do you have a sense of which might lean more towards translation, versus interpretation? A pretty broad and perhaps non-specific destinction I realize. But by way of example, I assume that Pound's version would be more poetic and perhaps less a 'pure' translation?

Again, thanks. All the best ....

PS - I found a PDF version of Karlgren's so I have a good place to start I think.

Hi,

I would like to think so as well. Pound's is more interpretative. In cases like the Book of Odes, where there aren't that many idiomatic expressions or literature references such as in Tang poems, I tend to go for "poetic" rather than "faithful" translations.

Cheers,

Michuco
 
F

Freedda

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Again, thanks all. I have a PDF of the Karlgren version and I have looked at the UofV online version based on Legge's translation.

However, I'm still wondering ....

Looking at an example from Rutt's Zhouyi (p300) we have
(in almost the last lines of Ode 168):
'we have brought prisioners for questioning,
caugth the chieftans'

From the UofV website we have (Legge):
'With our prisoners for the question and our captive crowd,
We return.'

And from Karlgren:
'we have seized prisioners for the question and caught a crowd.
And now we return home.'

So, I'm wondering if the translation in Rutt is familiar to anyone, and if so which translation is it from? (or maybe it's his own translation from the Chinese original)

***
As an aside, in the translation in Rutt, I could interpret these lines to mean that enemy prisoners and their chieftan's were brought in for interrogation - i.e. to find out what they know about the enemy's troop strenght, movements, plans ....

And looking at the other two translations I could interpret these to mean: as part of the divination ritual surrounding a 'question' (singular) that's been asked, enemy prisoners were captured - perhaps to be part of a ritual sacrifice (mass murder), but they were not brought in to find out what they know.

However, since Rutt refers to this line in his notes about Hex. 7 - troops, but at the same time the Odes do not (as far as I know) mention which particular types of divination are being used - it sseems that both meanings might work: either as war-time interrogation, or as a ritual sacrifice to ensure success, perhaps done as part of oracle bone, or Zhouyi, or another type of divination.

all the best ...
 
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michuco

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Again, thanks all. I have a PDF of the Karlgren version and I have looked at the UofV online version based on Legge's translation.

However, I'm still wondering ....

Looking at an example from Rutt's Zhouyi (p300) we have
(in almost the last lines of Ode 168):
'we have brought prisioners for questioning,
caugth the chieftans'


From the UofV website we have (Legge):
'With our prisoners for the question and our captive crowd,
We return.'


And from Karlgren:
'we have seized prisioners for the question and caught a crowd.
And now we return home.'


So, I'm wondering if the translation in Rutt is familiar to anyone, and if so which translation is it from?

***
As an aside, in the translation in Rutt, I could interpret this to mean that enemy prisoners and their chieftan's were brought in for interogation - e.g. to find out what they know about the enemy's troop strenght, movements, plans ....

And looking at the other two translations I could also interpret these to mean: as part of the divination ritual surrounding a 'question' (singular) that's been asked, enemy prisoners were captured - perhaps to be part of a ritual sacrifice (mass murder), but they were not being brought in to find out what they know.

However, since Rutt refers to this line in his notes about Hex. 7 - troops, but at the same time the Odes do not (as far as I know) mention which particular types of divination are being used - it sseems that both meanings might work: either as war-time interogation, or as a ritual sacrifice to ensure success, perhaps done as part of oracle bone, or Zhouyi, or another type of divination.

all the best ...

Hi,

I think you mean the expression: "執訊獲醜".

"執訊" means "interrogate" and "獲醜" means "the uglies that we've caught".
On this expession from Shijing, Gao Heng comments that Zhou people considered foreign enemies as "these not so-fined-looking gentlemen" "醜".

So I think the expression could simply means that "Enemies were caught and
interrogated". I don't read classical chinese so I rely on modern
translations.

The expressions "執訊獲醜", "執訊" and "獲醜" can be found on various online dictionaries. From these definitions, I would speculate that Rutt's "chieftains" could have come from Zuozhuan reference where "執訊" also means interrogating officer.

On the other hand, I also have a version of Shijing with Zhuxi's commentaries and the translation is similar to that of Rutt: "We've caught the enemy's chieftain and (many) enemies."

Again, this is really above my head.

Cheers,

Michuco
 
F

Freedda

Guest
I think you mean the expression: "執訊獲醜".
No, I don't mean this expression, or any particular expression. (But perhaps I misled people by my 'as an aside' comments, which were not the main point of what I was asking about). So, I'll try again:

I shared a line from the Odes that Rutt uses in his Zhouyi. I then shared two other translations of the same line from Legge and Karlgrean - but they are different (if even slightly).

And so I am wondering if anyone knows which translation of the 'Odes' Rutt used (based on the example I shared)?

But I wasn't asking for a translation, or about the particular meanings of any of the lines, except as an afterthought. But you shared that this is 'above your head' so maybe the odes Rutt uses are just not familiar to you. Thanks for trying.

all the best ....
 
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