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Retreat Line 2 and 3

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So retreat seems to be a unfavorable situation. Where one must withdraw without putting up any fight to a hostile force. But what is interesting is the idea that one is not surrendering. I like how Chris Lofting uses the metaphor "trickery" to describe this situation - one is not surrendering but yielding - in order to await a better situation.

But then there is line 2 Which says:


Six in the second place means:
he holds him fast with yellow oxhide.
No one can tear him loose.

Yellow is the color of the middle. It indicates that which is correct and in line
with duty. Oxhide is strong and not to be torn.

While the superior men retreat and the inferior press after them, the
inferior man represented here holds on so firmly and tightly to the superior
man that the latter cannot shake him off. And because he is in quest of what
is right an so strong in purpose, he reaches his goal. Thus the line confirms
what is said in the Judgment: "In what is small" —here equivalent to "in the
inferior man" — "perseverance furthers."


So this seems to be showing that the stinky monkey is still on your back - you try to run but it holds on. But what does Wilhelm mean when he says: "And because he is in quest of what is right an so strong in purpose, he reaches his goal." Is he talking about the inferior man (aka stinky monkey)? Usually inferior people don't seek what is right. But the line seems to favor the hostile forces rather than those on retreat.

Then there is line 3:

Nine in the third place means:
A halted retreat
Is nerve-wracking and dangerous.
To retain people as men- and maidservants
Brings good fortune.

When it is time to retreat it is both unpleasant and dangerous to be held back,
because then one no longer has freedom of action. In such a case the only
expedient is to take into one's service, so to speak, those who refuse to let one
go, so that one may at least keep one's initiative and not fall helplessly under
their domination. But even with this expedient the situation is far from
satisfactory—for what can one hope to accomplish with such servants?



I don't know if this is worse or not than line 2... So this guy seems like he can't run away either, so the advice here is to give in for the moment to at least maintain the freedom of that initiative of the situation - thereby those who you caught you then "join you" or you "join" them (in effect the situation forces a meeting or power grab) - And so you play to their needs and they begin to trust you as a good leader / helper to them - but you can't really trust them and are still trapped.


So how do you escape? Is the superior man enslaved to the inferior - is there NO escape? Neither one of the relating hexagrams look like escape: Line 3 changes hexagram 12 results... Line 2 changes 44 results. Both are pretty sticky and unfavorable situations.

I guess then it would depend on the following circumstances after - weather you could get a chance to shake them loose again and return to your camp.

Why does wilhelm say for line 2: "In what is small" —here equivalent to "in the
inferior man" — "perseverance furthers."


Why would a line be counseling the inferior man? The Yijing was "written only for the superior man" Wilhelm says.

Also doesn't line 1 successfully escape? Why then would line 2 and 3 get caught if they are farther from the advancing hostile forces?

OK on page 550 it says the lower three lines are "hampered" by the retreat while the top trigram escapes. So hampered doesn't mean stuck forever...
 
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bradford

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It might be noted that superior and inferior are not used in these texts.
This is only Wilhelm's understanding, or lack thereof.
Xiao ren is used in 33.4, but even here, "common people" is a better translation, just "young noble" is a better translation for Junzi than the ridiculous "superior man".
 
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I agree with Wilhelm's translation of inferior superior. It has seemed correct with my experience.
 
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That you would like to see bombast in the Yijing is not surprising.

Nah, dude it's just I have probably a different experience than you - I didn't write the book. And if you think part of it is ridiculous and other parts bombast, that's your prerogative. But does everyone have to agree with your view? And if not you unleash your scorn and condecending tone upon them? Maybe the idea of inferior and superior ways would benefit you? To my mind the Yijing is full degrees of merit, fortune and misfortune. It just seems to fit in and make allot of sense. But then i'm probably being bombastic...:duh:
 

bradford

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Your Majesty,
Actually bombast does occur in the Yijing, but this is primarily in the first six Wings. And yet, ironically, this is not so in the Da Xiang, where Junzi is most often mistranslated as the Superior Man. But this is six to eight centuries after the Zhouyi, which had a different agenda than encouraging inflated human self-importance. By the time Kongzi's followers came onto the scene, Junzi was indeed a more haughty title and a thing for flattery and self-flattery.
 

Sparhawk

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Amen. Indeed, it is actually quite surprising and refreshing to learn how utilitarian those ancient Chinese were in their terminology. A lot of interpretive varnish was applied over the centuries to certain keywords, like xiaoren, daren and junzi. Wilhelm, and mainly his Chinese mentor, fell head-on into quite a few semantic traps along the way.
 

bradford

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I have no particular problem with the idea that both things and people can be superior or inferior to one another. And I enjoy both Nietzsche and Aleister Crowley too much to not be much amused by bombast as a literary device. And I don't hesitate much to be judgmental in a negative way in calling something like Superior Man an inferior translation of Junzi.
But in the Zhouyi, the exalted is dependent upon the subordinate, and nobility is, perhaps more than anything else, an obligation to the common man (xiao ren) who holds him up there. Royalty is, perhaps more than anything else, an obligation to serve both the people and the Mandate of Heaven. Thinking of oneself as superior is counterproductive in both of these. To violate this relationship by setting oneself high above is to invite such scenarios as are described in Gua 23, and this is not the only place this caution is given. Of course in Gua 12 the noble is advised to walk away from the inferior influence, and in Gua 36, sometimes even to hide from it, for the sake of higher or superior purposes. Smallness or pettiness is indeed described as inferior to and beneath the worth of the noble, but the superiority is relative to each ethical action. It is not conferred upon the entire person for performing an ethical act, and certainly not for being born into a privileged position. The young noble is called young because he still has a lot learning and growing to do. He has not arrived yet. And to continue to learn at the pace that is required of someone with the distant horizons of a true noble requires humility and true modesty. Without this he cannot truly occupy a place of learning.
 

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HI, Brad:

I wonder what did mean those titles in preconfucian times. Much simplifying I see at least tree types of men (1):

  • The NOBLE SON,
  • The GREAT MAN,
  • The LITTLE MAN.

Maybe that sort of trinity, which might be associated wit "EGO", "SUPEREGO" and "IT" did sound too freudian for jungian ears.

Fron the point of view of language I believe that the oppositions are between:

  • The NOBLE SON and the EVIL MEN
  • The GREAT MAN and the LITTLE MEN

Fitting with an aristocratic ideology the GOOD is SINGLE and the BAD are MULTIPLE or massive.

There is also an undercultural possibility opposing GREAT MAN and LITTLE MAN, being the first the idealized moral self, the public personality or his political models and the second the LOW DRIVES of the individual, of course, not always bad although sometimes disreputable.

Yours,


Charly

P.D.
(1) Of course, there are also women, but that's another story.
I will edit assap the chinese characters.
Ch.
 
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bradford

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Hi Charly
Your theory also might want to account for the Fei Ren, the wrong, bad or inferior person, the persona non grata, even though it's only used in the Zhouyi at 8.3 and 12.0.
I'm also tempted to count the Kou, the criminal assailant or sociopath.
 

charly

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Hi Charly
Your theory also might want to account for the Fei Ren, the wrong, bad or inferior person, the persona non grata, even though it's only used in the Zhouyi at 8.3 and 12.0.
I'm also tempted to count the Kou, the criminal assailant or sociopath.
Hi, Brad:

I let the FEI REN appart because I'm not sure if they are true BAD PEOPLE, or maybe only REBELS.

Usually they are confounded with men looking for wifes maybe without following the proper manners.

Say, NO BANDITS but MEN IN LOVE.

I believe that there is a story of censorship behind some words meaning NOT.

Yours,


Charly
 
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Your Majesty,
Actually bombast does occur in the Yijing, but this is primarily in the first six Wings. And yet, ironically, this is not so in the Da Xiang, where Junzi is most often mistranslated as the Superior Man. But this is six to eight centuries after the Zhouyi, which had a different agenda than encouraging inflated human self-importance. By the time Kongzi's followers came onto the scene, Junzi was indeed a more haughty title and a thing for flattery and self-flattery.

I've often gotten tidbit with my name... I find that interesting that it seems to ruffle people so much. :rofl:

No worries...

Junzi I think is just a translation of Gentlemen.

I have no particular problem with the idea that both things and people can be superior or inferior to one another. And I enjoy both Nietzsche and Aleister Crowley too much to not be much amused by bombast as a literary device. And I don't hesitate much to be judgmental in a negative way in calling something like Superior Man an inferior translation of Junzi.
But in the Zhouyi, the exalted is dependent upon the subordinate, and nobility is, perhaps more than anything else, an obligation to the common man (xiao ren) who holds him up there. Royalty is, perhaps more than anything else, an obligation to serve both the people and the Mandate of Heaven. Thinking of oneself as superior is counterproductive in both of these. To violate this relationship by setting oneself high above is to invite such scenarios as are described in Gua 23, and this is not the only place this caution is given. Of course in Gua 12 the noble is advised to walk away from the inferior influence, and in Gua 36, sometimes even to hide from it, for the sake of higher or superior purposes. Smallness or pettiness is indeed described as inferior to and beneath the worth of the noble, but the superiority is relative to each ethical action. It is not conferred upon the entire person for performing an ethical act, and certainly not for being born into a privileged position. The young noble is called young because he still has a lot learning and growing to do. He has not arrived yet. And to continue to learn at the pace that is required of someone with the distant horizons of a true noble requires humility and true modesty. Without this he cannot truly occupy a place of learning.


I pretty much agree with you here. Humility is the most esteemed virtue in the Book. But humility as defined in hexagram 15 is more well defined than the typical view of humility in many social structures which is more synonymous with humiliation. True superiority doesn't use bombastic screen names like my own... :bag:
 

bradford

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I let the FEI REN appart because I'm not sure if they are true BAD PEOPLE, or maybe only REBELS.

The ones in this image aren't because that's what it says.
But by implication these people exist, as in 12.0.
But there is also some word play here with Fei Kou, something like a double negative.
 
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sooo

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So this seems to be showing that the stinky monkey is still on your back - you try to run but it holds on. But what does Wilhelm mean when he says: "And because he is in quest of what is right an so strong in purpose, he reaches his goal." Is he talking about the inferior man (aka stinky monkey)? Usually inferior people don't seek what is right. But the line seems to favor the hostile forces rather than those on retreat.

Then there is line 3:

Nine in the third place means:
A halted retreat
Is nerve-wracking and dangerous.
To retain people as men- and maidservants
Brings good fortune.

When it is time to retreat it is both unpleasant and dangerous to be held back,
because then one no longer has freedom of action. In such a case the only
expedient is to take into one's service, so to speak, those who refuse to let one
go, so that one may at least keep one's initiative and not fall helplessly under
their domination. But even with this expedient the situation is far from
satisfactory—for what can one hope to accomplish with such servants?



I don't know if this is worse or not than line 2... So this guy seems like he can't run away either, so the advice here is to give in for the moment to at least maintain the freedom of that initiative of the situation - thereby those who you caught you then "join you" or you "join" them (in effect the situation forces a meeting or power grab) - And so you play to their needs and they begin to trust you as a good leader / helper to them - but you can't really trust them and are still trapped.


So how do you escape? Is the superior man enslaved to the inferior - is there NO escape? Neither one of the relating hexagrams look like escape: Line 3 changes hexagram 12 results... Line 2 changes 44 results. Both are pretty sticky and unfavorable situations.

I guess then it would depend on the following circumstances after - weather you could get a chance to shake them loose again and return to your camp.

Why does wilhelm say for line 2: "In what is small" —here equivalent to "in the
inferior man" — "perseverance furthers."


Why would a line be counseling the inferior man? The Yijing was "written only for the superior man" Wilhelm says.

Also doesn't line 1 successfully escape? Why then would line 2 and 3 get caught if they are farther from the advancing hostile forces?

OK on page 550 it says the lower three lines are "hampered" by the retreat while the top trigram escapes. So hampered doesn't mean stuck forever...

Love the term "stinky monkey still on your back" for inferior or lower man. Thought provoking post, I thought. Yes, I think Yi does council the one who is open and wants to know, not the stinky monkey. chuckles

r.e. line 2 - going into retreat is one thing, but it's still good to have means of dealing with practical every day things. At what point does retreating to our own highest standard become detrimental to our well being? We still have to live with ourselves, including the stinky monkey. But it is pointed out that these are our limited servants, not our masters. In these senses, I don't think your use of inferior or superior are inappropriate.

Stuck forever? No, not necessarily. I was delighted to see you mention Chris Lofting's "trickery" concept. Ultimately, timely retreat is a means to gather forces for a successful advance.
 

charly

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Folk stories often prefer the LITTLE instead of the BIG. Wilhelm knew it...

THE CHINESE FAIRYBOOK

I
WOMEN'S WORDS PART FLESH AND BLOOD

ONCE upon a time there were two brothers, who lived in the same house. And the big brother listened to his wife 's words, and because of them fell out with the little one. Summer had begun, and the time for sowing the high-growing millet had come. The little brother had no grain, and asked the big one to loan him some and the big one ordered his wife to give it to him. But she took the grain, put it in a large pot and cooked it until it was done. Then she gave it to the little fellow. He knew nothing about it, and went and sowed his field with it. Yet, since the grain had been cooked, it did not sprout.

Only a single grain of seed had not been cooked so only single sprout shot up. The little brother was hard-working and industrious by nature, and hence he watered and hoed the sprout all day long. And the sprout grew mightily, like a tree, and an ear of millet sprang up out of it like a canopy, large enough to shade half an acre of ground. In the fall the ear was ripe. Then the little brother took his ax and chopped it down. But no sooner had the ear fallen to the ground, than an enormous Roc came rushing down, took the ear in his beak and flew away. The little brother ran after him as far as the shore of the sea.

Then the bird turned and spoke to him like a human being as follows: ''You should not seek to harm me! What is this one ear worth to you? East of the sea is the isle of gold and silver. I will carry you across. There you may take whatever you want, and become very rich.'

The little brother was satisfied, and climbed on the bird's back, and the latter told him to close his eyes. So he only heard the air whistling past his ears, as though he were driving through a strong wind, and beneath him the roar and surge of flood and waves. Sudenly the bird settled on a rock: "Here we are!' he said.

Then the little brother opened his eyes and looked about him: and on all sides he saw nothing but the radiance and shimmer of all sorts of white and yellow objects. He took about a dozen of the little things and hid them in his breast.

"Have you enough?" asked the Roc.

"Yes, I have enough," he replied.

"That is well," answered the bird. "Moderation protects one from harm."

Then he once more took him and carried him up, back again.

When the little brother reached home, he bought himself a good piece of ground in the course of time, and became quite well to do.

But his brother was jealous of him, and said to him, harshly: "Where did you manage to steal the money?"

So the little one told him the whole truth of the matter. Then the big brother went home and took counsel with his wife.

"Nothing easier," said his wife. "I will just cook grain again and keep back one seedling so that it is not done. Then you shall sow it and we will see what happens."

No sooner said than done. And sure enough, a single sprout shot up, and sure enough, the sprout bore a single ear of millet, and when harvest time came around, the Roc again appeared and carried it off in his beak. The big brother was pleased, and ran after him, and the Roc said the same thing he had said before, and carried the big brother to the island. There the big brother saw the and silver heaped up everywhere. The largest pieces were like hills, the small ones were like bricks, and the real tiny ones were like grains of sand. They blinded his eyes. He only regretted that he knew of no way by which he could move mountains. So he bent down and picked up as many pieces as possible.

The Roc said: "Now you have enough! You will overtax your strength.'

"Have patience but a little while longer," said the big brother. "Do not be in such a hurry! I must get a few more pieces!"

And thus time passed.

The Roc again urged him to make haste : "The sun will appear in a moment," said he, "and the sun is so hot it burns human beings up."

"Wait just a little while longer," said the big brother. But that very moment a red disk broke through the clouds with tremendous power. The Roc flew into the sea, stretched out both his wings, and beat the water with them in order to the escape the heat. But the big brother was shrivelled up by the sun.


Note: This fairy-tale is traditionally narrated. The Roc is called pong in Chinese, and the treasures on the island are spoken of as "all sorts of yellow and white objects" because the little fellow does not know that they are gold and
silver.

From
The Chinese Fairy Book
Edited by R. Wilhelm.
Available digitalizaed by Microsoft at...
http://manybooks.net/titles/wilhelmr2993929939-8.html

Charly
 

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