...life can be translucent

Menu

returning "part" of the security deposit

elizabeth

visitor
Joined
Jan 10, 1971
Messages
691
Reaction score
10
Hi,
I swear to God. The ongoing saga. I moved apartments and somehow remained alive in the middle of the 72-hour no-sleep marathon. I met with my old landlady to give over the keys yesterday, and an apartment that was much cleaner than when I moved in after my cleaning blitz. She walked through it "does this work still? does this work?" sort of perfunctorily and then said 'well, since you only gave us 20 days' worth of rent this month, we're only giving you back 20 days' worth of the security deposit.'

Thereafter ensued a 1.5 hr discussion as to what the heck is going on. The original lease document (and every other basic lease agreement) says that the full amt of security deposit is to be returned to the renter upon his/her departure. When I gave one month's notice, the landlady knew I was 1) moving out before the end of November 2) not paying for the full month. She said yesterday that she was "shocked" when her daughter (the apt owner) came home last month with only 20 days' worth of rent. I said its common practice. She then said "it's common knowledge that this is a monthly agreement, so you can stay til the end of the month. If this was a daily agreement, you would pay by the night and that would be way more expensive." Uhm, duh.

They're deceiving me, they know it, they dont care. I trusted this woman for the past 2.5 yrs and had extended our contract verbally (LONG story). I had a good rel'ship w/her but once her daughter returned, everything reversed itself.

I"m already paying for the new apt ...so effectively i'm paying rent in two places right now. The old landlady said i could pay the difference, 10 day's worth and get back the whole deposit but in any case, even if i did that, they're only giving back the 20 days' worth (if you do the math).

I asked the Yi if i would end up getting all of it back.

It told me Hex. 61.5 to hex 41. I read that "In hexagram 61 apparent firmness hides a forgiving heart.". Does this mean forgive their debt to me and forget about the cash and mvoe on?

Also, I understand that hex 41 leads to hex 61 somehow (so I guess they're backwards) and the line 5 means no blame. (or no money!?) I know I will meet them tonight to get the "20 days' worth" back and after that I dont know... my friend suggested she would call my landlady and explain that we're going to the police and then the police will learn that they haven't been paying taxes on the rental income (against the law). And that threat might scare her into giving me back the whole amount.

Is this reading a "yes"? Any input?
 

dobro p

visitor
Joined
May 19, 1972
Messages
3,223
Reaction score
205
"I asked the Yi if i would end up getting all of it back.

It told me Hex. 61.5 to hex 41. I read that "In hexagram 61 apparent firmness hides a forgiving heart.". Does this mean forgive their debt to me and forget about the cash and mvoe on?"

I've always read this line as meaning 'capturing truth, connecting without fault'. But the application of that meaning to your situation has different possibilities:

* You've captured truth, connected with the real person your landlady is at last. That's fine. (But don't expect to get the money back.)

* You'll capture the money by connecting with her the way you did. No fault attached to that, either.

I prefer the second one, don't you? :)
 

elizabeth

visitor
Joined
Jan 10, 1971
Messages
691
Reaction score
10
Dobro, thanks for the reply to this post. Yes, I do prefer the last option -- I'm just not sure it will work. I will try phoning her tonight after her daughter brings me the 20 days' worth of the deposit...and try to reason with her. And I guess if that doesn't work, then we go to the police. (?) I really don't know how else to avoid it, except I"ve done nothing wrong here (aside from not having every step of this documented on paper, but as I said, I trusted her and she me...) It occurred to me that had they said "well you left the fridge dirty (or whatever) and so we're knocking 200 off the deposit and you get the rest back." THAT makes more sense than what they're doing.

I too gathered the capturing truth theme from the brief research i did on this reading...and thus I really worry that option 2 above isn't possible since the Yi tends to be pretty specific in my experience.

Again, thanks Dobro. (ps. in Russian, "dobrii" means 'good or dear to someone' :)).
 

hilary

Administrator
Joined
Apr 8, 1970
Messages
19,149
Reaction score
3,418
Is it really worth getting yourself bogged down in all that bad feeling for this? Especially your friend's suggestion of issuing what sounds like a blackmail threat - wouldn't you hate every moment of it?

61, in my experience, tends to connect extra-strongly with the second hexagram and intensify the experience. So here you're experiencing the Inner Truth of Diminishing/Offering. It might be easier - more fluent, smoother - for you to let it go.

The line also suggests that your good, trusting relationship with your old landlady can still be recaptured, even though it doesn't seem that way.
 

nicky_p

visitor
Joined
Jan 14, 1971
Messages
368
Reaction score
1
Hi Elizabeth,

I wonder, with 41 being in your answer, whether the yi is advising you to cut your losses so to speak?

elizabeth said:
I swear to God. The ongoing saga.

I get the impression you're pretty sick and tired of all this. I personally would ask myself whether it was worth continuing the saga: taking it to the police, adding more emotional strain and practical annoyance. Is the prospect of a financial loss rated higher or lower on your comfort scale compared with carrying this through to the letter of the law? I'd also be worried - I don't know how it works in Russia but where do they stand with verbal agreements? Does a verbal agreement then negate the written agreement - as in the contract has already been broken, although favourably on your side, with the rental extention?

I think 61 is advising you to sit down and take a good look at what is important to you and the reading as a whole suggesting that you may have to make some kind of sacrifice in order to bring about an optimal outcome - whether that be in time and continued saga or financial.

Whatever you decide I wish you good luck with it.
Love
Nicky
 

nicky_p

visitor
Joined
Jan 14, 1971
Messages
368
Reaction score
1
Hi Hilary,
Crossed posts :D

Elizabeth,

I noticed something else: funny how Wilhelm has for the image of 61:

Thus the superior man discusses criminal cases
In order to delay executions

Maybe you could bring up tonight the question of where you stand legally with your landlady? That way it's not formalised and things set in motion that will get you bogged down?
 

willowfox

Inactive
Joined
Jun 18, 2006
Messages
5,530
Reaction score
261
Hi elizabeth,

"I asked the Yi if i would end up getting all of it back.

It told me Hex. 61.5 to hex 41."

Hex 61.5 says that you should indeed you the threat of the police to bring this old biddy around, it will certainly make her think twice about trying to cheat you.

Hex 41 is about how the shift of wealth can take place without causing major problems to the lower classes ( the apartment renters ) in the nation. It is your landlady that will be on shaky ground unless she returns the full deposit, she is the one that has too make the small sacrifice here.

If I were you I would use the threat tonight when you go for your partial refund, why wait? I would imagine that you will experience some colourful language, shock, fake upset etc to start with but stand your ground and you may get the full refund tonight or tomorrow.
Do it.
 

nicky_p

visitor
Joined
Jan 14, 1971
Messages
368
Reaction score
1
willowfox said:
Hex 61.5 says that you should indeed you the threat of the police to bring this old biddy around, it will certainly make her think twice about trying to cheat you....
....Do it.

Remind me NEVER to cross Willowfox!! She scares me! :eek: LOL!
 

hilary

Administrator
Joined
Apr 8, 1970
Messages
19,149
Reaction score
3,418
Hi Nicky! :D

I don't agree with WF on this one - it'd be very convenient to stick the landlady with the duty of 41, but I don't think that's how the reading structure works. Anyway, it's good to have alternative points of view, right?

'Above the lake is the wind. Inner truth.
The noble one deliberates over legal proceedings and delays executions.'

The wind can always move the lake; the lake doesn't decide on her position and set there like concrete. I think this is about allowing yourself to be moved by the whole truth of the situation, weighing pros and cons, not being in a big hurry to do something irrevocable. Maybe a good relationship with the old landlady is still worth something to you (in addition to just peace of mind).
 

willowfox

Inactive
Joined
Jun 18, 2006
Messages
5,530
Reaction score
261
"Is it really worth getting yourself bogged down in all that bad feeling for this? Especially your friend's suggestion of issuing what sounds like a blackmail threat - wouldn't you hate every moment of it?"

The answer here is a very firm YES. The bad feeling is already there, so nothing more to get bogged down with. It is not blackmail, it is a matter of getting what is owed, many people in Far East countries think that western people are fair game to be hassled and cheated, so when you make a stand they soon give you your money back. And the police are the number one threat to use.

If you have lived in foreign countries like I have, it becomes very tedious when every Tom, Dick and biddy tries to rip one off, all the time.
 

willowfox

Inactive
Joined
Jun 18, 2006
Messages
5,530
Reaction score
261
Peace of mind comes when you know that you have not been ripped off yet again.
 

luz

visitor
Joined
Jan 31, 1970
Messages
778
Reaction score
8
Peace of mind comes when you know that you have not been ripped off yet again
.
It depends. For some people, peace of mind is knowing they didn't have to resort to such things as blackmail to get their way. Or to know that you are not potentially getting yourself in trouble with people who perhaps know how to 'navigate the system' better than you and who now hate you and might try to get back at you.




 

toganm

visitor
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
139
Reaction score
2
Hi Elizabeth

elizabeth said:
I asked the Yi if i would end up getting all of it back.

It told me Hex. 61.5 to hex 41. I read that "In hexagram 61 apparent firmness hides a forgiving heart.". Does this mean forgive their debt to me and forget about the cash and mvoe on?

Judment of 61 says:
Inner Truth.Pigs and fishes
Good fortune
It furthers one to cross the great water
Perseverance furthers

The commentary by Wilhem to the judgement of 61 says:
"In dealing with persons as intractable and as difficult to influence as a pig or a fish, the whole secret of success depends on finding the right way of approach"

Hexagram 61 is marsh below wind above (metal below wood above). Metal is restricting wood the season is water overall things for wood is not good.

Speaking gently ( not driven by the anger is the way to influence) or gentle (sincere) words may help you to find the right approach.

Hexagram 41 is marsh (metal) below mountain (earth)above. As the season is water the inluence of the season is affected by the earth (mountain) hence words come to a stop they do not influnce the other person.

So overall you may lose the money the approach should be gentle, sincere in alignment with your integrity

Hope it helps
Togan
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,921
Reaction score
4,426
Here one cannot normally decide just to pay a portion of a months rent even if one is leaving. The understanding is always a full month. There is always a cross over period when one is paying two rents. I know cos i once tried a similar negotiation with a landlady who refused and I checked it out. She was within her rights, she would have been doing me a favour by allowing me to pay only a portion of the month.

In other words I don't think they are deceiving you. You can't give 20 days notice unless as she said you are paying by the night as it is a monthly agreement. In order to recoup her loss she is taking it off your deposit. Don't forget she has the trouble of finding a new tenant etc etc.

As for calling the police, lol er well do police deal with this kind of thing where you are ?
It most certainly would not be their province here, it is a civil case where you would have to get a lawyer etc which would probably be an utter waste of time and money.

Oh btw i think your reading indicates you'd best forget it and move on.
 
Last edited:

elizabeth

visitor
Joined
Jan 10, 1971
Messages
691
Reaction score
10
Gosh, thanks everyone for the replies but I dont know what to do. On the one hand, I agree with willowfox -- I'm sick of being cheated, taken advantage of. On the other hand, my landlady, and her conniving daughter (who btw I believe is responsible for all of this -- before the daughter, there were Zero Problems between the landlady and me) -- they know how to navigate the system better. Without a written agreement, they *could* deny ever renting to me. Then it becomes a game of he said/she said. I know that the threat of paying taxes would scare them, but I dont know if it would work to get the money back and I dont know if going to the police will help me in the end either.

Ultimately, this is a "principle" that I have a hard time letting go. I'm right, they're wrong. I want them to admit or know that *I KNOW* that they're deceiving me. And, I want my cash back. Again, if I had damaged something in their apartment, fine,, please, be my guest, take it out of the security deposit, that's what it's for. But this baloney about "yeah i was surprised when my mom (the landlady) told me she had not raised your rent" and allt hese implications that they've "lost money" while renting to me. That's their problem, but they're trying to make me pay for it. Had they raised rent, I might have paid it, I might have left and found antoher place sooner -- but they didnt ask, they didnt try.

A side note: is the merc retrograde fully over I wonder?

Anyway, I'll try calling the landlady on her cellphone as soon as her daughter leaves my place. That way I know they wont be together in the same room when I speak to the landlady. And I'll start gentle and say I'm hurt, i thought we had a good relationship, and everyone I talked to agrees that this isnt done, and point XYZ in our initial agreement states tthat she's obliged to return the full amount to me...etc etc.

I really do not know what is best. This whole scenario makes me want to get on a plane and not look back, seriously. That, or buy the other apartment and never have to deal with renting again in my entire life.

Thanks for the help. If anyone has additional input pls do share it.

-e.
 

elizabeth

visitor
Joined
Jan 10, 1971
Messages
691
Reaction score
10
Oops, trojan, our posts crossed, I only just saw yours. My rental agreement says that the full amount of the security deposit is returned to the renter regardless of the date that he/she leaves. It doesnt address the issue of how many days I pay for in the event I leave early> Obviously, had I thought I would lose all this money, I would have done things differently. and to me, it doesnt seem fair that the landlady did not tell me it was not okay to prorate the rent for the last month> I pro-rated, paid them. Silence. Then a month later they say "no can do" about the initial sec deposit.

"In other words I don't think they are deceiving you. You can't give 20 days notice unless as she said you are paying by the night as it is a monthly agreement. In order to recoup her loss she is taking it off your deposit. Whats unfair about that ? "

She gave me notice in late September that I'd have to move out by December sometime. So as I see it, she was the one cancelling the initial agreement.
I then told her i'll be out by Dec. 1 but will let you know if it is earlier. On Oct. 18 I told her I'd move out on Nov. 19th. one month notice. I paid for those19 days.

As I see it, she can now sublet by the night, by the month, not sublet at all, move back in earlier..but why am I obliged to pay thru the 30th of the month if I'm not living there?

"As for calling the police, lol er well do police deal with this kind of thing where you are ?
It most certainly would not be their province here, it is a civil case where you would have to get a lawyer etc which would probably be an utter waste of time and money."

This is a good point. My friend suggested that the 'threat' of 'tax inspectors' would be enough to get my money back. However its a big question mark (wont know until I try it I suppose).

"Oh btw i think your reading indicates you'd best forget it and move on."

Thanks...i'll keep it in mind.
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
As an aside (but it may promote peace of mind :)), I'm not sure that the landlady is indeed deceiving you here, Elizabeth.
If I remember correctly (I didn't move recently) such agreements are monthly here too. This means that if you say - for example - on the 10th of october that you will leave you still have to pay the full rent for november.
I think the rule that one has to give notice 'a month in advance' means that one has to give notice BEFORE the month for which one pays the last rent (or maybe at its latest on the first of that month).

So perhaps your landlady is right and has misunderstood you when she seemed to agree with another arrangement?
 

willowfox

Inactive
Joined
Jun 18, 2006
Messages
5,530
Reaction score
261
Martin,

"My rental agreement says that the full amount of the security deposit is returned to the renter regardless of the date that he/she leaves."
 

autumn

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
430
Reaction score
4
"He possesses truth, which links together"

There is an archived post in this forum where someone asks, "what will happen if I kill myself?". His answer was 61.5 (41). Ever since reading that, I have paid close attention to the phrase, "which links together". Your inner truth attracts to you experiences which mirror that inner reality. 41 here as emptying oneself of social conventions and rules. So, for his answer, it was something like, "you lose your socially constructed identity and join with those who closely mirror your essence, so beware of what you are and where you are, because you join with what you after you leave here"

For you, here's Bradford's translation of the line:

"We make rules and laws, and standards and forms of social behaviors, which often weigh more than they’re worth. Is there not a better way? We humans can sometimes see higher truths, and will sometimes trust those who share them.Yet it might be thought to be lower truths which connect us, the natural laws and original natures we share. These are the ties that bind us most firmly... Being true is not to be told what the truth is: it is to learn who we are and stay true to our natures. This is who honors our contracts."

I paid $1000 a month for 3 years for a large townhome before moving out of it last year, and my rent was never late. When I moved out, I spent 3-4 days scrubbing the place from top to bottom. It was very clean. My landlady refused to give me back my security deposit for normal wear and tear that occurred during the 3 years. That's just how a lot of land people are. It sucks, but in the long run, you have to pick your battles to get through life with any peace.

As an answer to your question though, "will I get the money back", maybe if you try connecting with her out of a sense of what's really right and fair- in a way that's not defensive.
 

willowfox

Inactive
Joined
Jun 18, 2006
Messages
5,530
Reaction score
261
Hi elizabeth,

"This is a good point. My friend suggested that the 'threat' of 'tax inspectors' would be enough to get my money back. However its a big question mark (wont know until I try it I suppose)."

In most of Asia the police will indeed help a foreigner who has a problem with a *robber*


"A side note: is the merc retrograde fully over I wonder?

Yes it is now back to normal, since the 18th.

"Anyway, I'll try calling the landlady on her cellphone as soon as her daughter leaves my place."
If you don't get heavy then you will always wonder what if, so best try.

I have lived in various Asian countries for years now, and in the beginning I was cheated eveywhere I went but now I know the rules of the game, no more problems. I have in fact had to resort to going down to the local police station, on more than one occassion to get the problem sorted out. What you are describing with this landlady is a blatant con job.
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
Hi Willowfox,

Yes, but the landlady offered to return the full deposit if Elizabeth was willing to pay for the whole month ...
If she is right (and I suspect she is) about the rent being a monthly agreement she is allowed to deduct the money that she doesn't receive from the deposit, I think.
But I'm not a lawyer. :)
 

elizabeth

visitor
Joined
Jan 10, 1971
Messages
691
Reaction score
10
Hi Autumn :)

Thanks for the reply.

I'm realizing it's just a losing battle -- losing money in renting, losing ties with people I trusted, losing cash in being shuttlecocked from one end of the Net of Life to the other. I am so exhausted, I honestly don't even know how to connect w/my landlady verbally now in a non-defensive way. (although that's a great suggestion and i want to try it)

I realize you're right, so many people dont get back security deposits but I feel I was screwed in leaving the old place AND in moving into the new one, with no wiggle room...which is partly why I want this full sec deposit back. *sigh*. I dont know how to proceed.
 

elizabeth

visitor
Joined
Jan 10, 1971
Messages
691
Reaction score
10
martin - i'm confused. why would u deduct the non-deposit money? I see the two fees as separate. One I paid in May 2004, one I paid in late October (a lower amount for fewer days there). Why would anyone return the rental amt to me, and not the deposit? Thats what I dont get...
 

willowfox

Inactive
Joined
Jun 18, 2006
Messages
5,530
Reaction score
261
"Or to know that you are not potentially getting yourself in trouble with people who perhaps know how to 'navigate the system' better than you and who now hate you and might try to get back at you."

These people are not navigating the system, they are on the outside of it, they have a lot too lose if the authorities look into their case. As for reprisals, they would be the first suspects the police would pick if something happened. As for the hate, well hasn't the landlady already shown that by trying to con a good customer, on the last day.
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
Hi Elizabeth,

I hope I didn't misunderstand something, but if your landlady is right and you don't pay the full rent you owe her money.
I think she is allowed to substract that sum from the deposit in that case.
I know, it sucks ...
 

autumn

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
430
Reaction score
4
bruce_g said:
Wow, Autumn, a perfectly brilliant answer, imo. :bows:
:blush: thank you

elizabeth said:
I am so exhausted, I honestly don't even know how to connect w/my landlady verbally now in a non-defensive way. (although that's a great suggestion and i want to try it)

61 suggests being very genuine. Maybe say, "I'm very stressed out, and I have been for several months, and I'm sorry this has become so difficult for both of us. I really have enjoyed renting from you, and I hate to leave here with bad feelings. I would like to be able to count on you as a reference in the future. Can we come to an agreement we can both live with? Here was my understanding; here is yours. How about a compromise?"

I would be very careful about getting involved with any kind of threat, especially in Russia, with the quasi-legitimate, mafia-like authorities roaming around, accepting bribes.
 

luz

visitor
Joined
Jan 31, 1970
Messages
778
Reaction score
8
What you are describing with this landlady is a blatant con job.
WF, I think you are perhaps tinting things with your personal experience a bit too much? Like Autumn pointed out, getting your security deposit in full even when there are no issues with leaving in the middle of the month is really difficult. And that happens everywhere and not just to foreigners in Asian countries. I really don't see how this landlady is doing a 'con' job... she never raised the rent and she is in fact giving her a full refund of her security deposit, she just asks to be paid for the full month.

In your original reading you said:
Hex 41 is about how the shift of wealth can take place without causing major problems to the lower classes ( the apartment renters ) in the nation.
How do you know that the 'lower classes' are the renters in this case? As somebody pointed out, the landlady might have trouble finding a new tenant, specially one willing to move in in the middle of the month. She probably counts on the rent money to make a living.
 

elizabeth

visitor
Joined
Jan 10, 1971
Messages
691
Reaction score
10
Martin, hi -- Ok no, i see what you mean now. (Math is my lifelong nemesis , hence part of the confusion). From your point of view (or rather, her point of view), that makes sense. Based on the initial written agreement however, I'm not sure which of us is right. The clause I keep referring to (in the albeit expired agreement) states that "the renter has the right to end this agreement by informing the landlord in writing of his/her intent to vacate one month before the intended departure date. In this case the rent amount must be paid ONLY UNTIL THE ACTUAL DATE OF vacation of the premises."

Keeping in mind that the landlady cancelled this agreement first...and then I gave her the exact date I would leave (which was earlier than the last possible date).. it makes sense that I would pay pro rated rent.

The lease also states that the full amt of security deposit will be returned in that case. ANd only in the event that I had been the first to cancel the agreement , would i have forfeited 100% of the deposit. (But i wasnt the first to cancel).

Now granted, this agreement expired over a year ago and we've continued it verbally since then on the same terms. I therefore think that I'm right, and being conned, and she's wrong, and conning me...
 

elizabeth

visitor
Joined
Jan 10, 1971
Messages
691
Reaction score
10
Hi Autumn,
Duly noted about the authorities and involvement. However, having not done anything illegal myself, I have nothing (except time and sanity) to lose.
(pause)
I just got the 19 day's back, cash, in my hands. Now the question is what to say to the landlady on the phone...
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top