Reverential Use of the Oracle

[my_key]

There was a comment made in one of the other threads about the nature of our approach to Yi. I've been thinking on this and would be interested to hear others' perspectives.

Using it as a fortune telling machine or as a problem fixing device does fall within the remit of what Yi can offer. However, in these circumstances we more than likely approach the divination process cloaked in stress, fear, grasping, or some similar form of agitation. This agitation can easily be mirrored in the cast or in the way we unfold the message being relayed.

When approached playfully, peacefully, with curiosity and with due respect the oracle becomes a mirror of these qualities; a living spontaneous reflection of our embodied pattern in that moment that mirrors how we are manifesting Tao.

Any divination and the ensuing responses from the Oracle are co-created. When we approach Yi with inferior qualities on display then the flow will be embroiled in the web of those inferior qualities. When we approach Yi manifesting the qualities of the noble one, our inner power and virtue (De), we will be opening a different doorway for Yi to step through with regards to the nature of its response.

 

[Trojina]

If one reads the psalms it is striking how no human emotion however 'inferior' is out of bounds when talking to God...and boy does David talk to/shout at/wail at God and the other psalmists too of course. It's raw and passionate stuff, I don't think I've come across one yet where the speaker is in a state of being that would be approved by the schools of thought referred to above.

I've come across very joyful psalms, thankful psalms, angry psalms, terribly shockingly vengeful psalms which are called 'imprecatory' psalms, peaceful psalms, sad mournful psalms, pleading psalms. I've not come across any psalmist trying to hold back on who he is in that moment, not come across any psalmist stifling emotion, monitoring himself for signs of wrong feeling or waiting till he is in some sort of state of 'alignment'. No. He can come as he is, warts and all. And why would he imagine he is there to present some kind of ideal state ? God knows his soul through and through and he can fully share how he is in all his agony and mess and there's a lot of mess.

I think one can absolutely come to Yi as one is , no need to be in any particular mood of 'balance' or perfection or calm or any ideas of how one is meant to be if one were in 'alignment with Tao' or somesuch. I mean it can be said Yi brings you to alignment with Tao but I don't think being already there, demonstrably so, is a prerequisite. If one were already there one would hardly be asking would one.

Also remember no one holds data on how emotions impact readings, no one has gone around measuring or recording how well Yi works when one is upset as compared to playful. Interestingly I don't think there are any playful psalms exactly. Possibly because the psalmist is generally in some life/death situation and would be interested in a playful chat with God.

So there can be obviously no empirical date on how state of mind impacts on readings, whether that be the actual response or one's interpretation of it. Therefore we can only hold opinions.

Personally I have found deep trouble can bring the sharpest clearest answers. There is no mood Yi cannot talk to you through. I do think one can stumble in interpretation through anxieties and fears and so on though. In that case it is a good idea to take a break rather than keep asking.

Any divination and the ensuing responses from the Oracle are co-created. When we approach Yi with inferior qualities on display then the flow will be embroiled in the web of those inferior qualities. When we approach Yi manifesting the qualities of the noble one, our inner power and virtue (De), we will be opening a different doorway for Yi to step through with regards to the nature of its response.

Well that's a matter of opinion whether you believe any divination is co-created. I don't personally think that is the case. I don't think if I approach Yi with frustration I get frustration back, it's not a mirror it's a consciousness. What that consciousness is again a matter of opinion but mv view is no of course displaying 'inferior qualities' doesn't close down flow with Yi any more than David's raving closed down his communion with God.

Now many think Yi is a manifestation of the Divine. I cannot say only that it appears to reply in ways that are kind and wise and true. But as a manifestation of the Divine, bought to us by the ancient chinese people and Wilhelm and many others, then as in prayer we really need not bring anything other than exactly who we are at that moment. We do not control how the Oracle replies by our self presentation to it. Self presentation is one thing we do not have to consider...'hmm I'm really mad right now but I better look (to myself) super calm and enlightened and aligned and then it might work better'...No, don't do that. Do what the psalmists did and keep on talking through all your mud and pain and reckless frustration, anger and joy and know you are not talking to yourself, what point would there be in that. No you are talking as if you would talk to God, as if you were talking to a good friend, as if you are talking to someone who can hear you and who accepts you in your current state right now and who will reply to you from a place of wisdom that is beyond you. True you won't always be able to reach the cup (27) you might not be able to hear but that won't be because you were displaying 'inferior qualities'.

 

[Trojina]

I should add of course the one thing the psalmists did display through all the rollercoaster of human experience was reverence because however they feel they are prepared to hear from God. They were prepared to listen. And sometimes it's quite strange when there's a whole catalogue of complaint, indignation at circumstances and yet they are still very ready to listen and indeed just knowing God Is is often enough to soothe them as with Job. I guess as long as we are really prepared to listen we are being reverential. Disregarding an answer can be sometimes like disregarding good advice when we sort of refuse it but carry it around anyway and one day will secretly look at it. But arguably worse than disregarding, because we are of course free to disregard, is twisting an answer to make it fit what we want it to say, not listening. But at least answers stay where they are, even if we did twist them we can go back and hear them again, the door isn't closed because we couldn't/wouldn't hear the first time.

 

[gene27]

There was a comment made in one of the other threads about the nature of our approach to Yi. I've been thinking on this and would be interested to hear others' perspectives.

Using it as a fortune telling machine or as a problem fixing device does fall within the remit of what Yi can offer. However, in these circumstances we more than likely approach the divination process cloaked in stress, fear, grasping, or some similar form of agitation. This agitation can easily be mirrored in the cast or in the way we unfold the message being relayed.

When approached playfully, peacefully, with curiosity and with due respect the oracle becomes a mirror of these qualities; a living spontaneous reflection of our embodied pattern in that moment that mirrors how we are manifesting Tao.

Any divination and the ensuing responses from the Oracle are co-created. When we approach Yi with inferior qualities on display then the flow will be embroiled in the web of those inferior qualities. When we approach Yi manifesting the qualities of the noble one, our inner power and virtue (De), we will be opening a different doorway for Yi to step through with regards to the nature of its response.

I agree, whole heartedly. And I would like to add, our problems come from within ourselves, not outer, there is no outer. When we take that into consideration we get a new perspective on how and when to use the I Ching. We must reflect within ourselves as to how the answer relates to something within us, and it is not a mere fate. We change ourselves and we change the answer. It is not a toy to be played with. I remember a story, and I think it comes from a W/B book about a Chinese general who asked the I Ching if he should attack an army. He got hexagram 62 line 2. So he left his base expecting an easy victory and his men were slaughtered. W/B said that he hadn’t paid attention to the nuclear hexagram. Maybe, but I would say his motives weren’t right. The door and courtyard refer to our own inner mentality. He needed a change of mind and heart. The I Ching is not something to play around with.

 

[gene27]

If one reads the psalms it is striking how no human emotion however 'inferior' is out of bounds when talking to God...and boy does David talk to/shout at/wail at God and the other psalmists too of course. It's raw and passionate stuff, I don't think I've come across one yet where the speaker is in a state of being that would be approved by the schools of thought referred to above.

I've come across very joyful psalms, thankful psalms, angry psalms, terribly shockingly vengeful psalms which are called 'imprecatory' psalms, peaceful psalms, sad mournful psalms, pleading psalms. I've not come across any psalmist trying to hold back on who he is in that moment, not come across any psalmist stifling emotion, monitoring himself for signs of wrong feeling or waiting till he is in some sort of state of 'alignment'. No. He can come as he is, warts and all. And why would he imagine he is there to present some kind of ideal state ? God knows his soul through and through and he can fully share how he is in all his agony and mess and there's a lot of mess.

I think one can absolutely come to Yi as one is , no need to be in any particular mood of 'balance' or perfection or calm or any ideas of how one is meant to be if one were in 'alignment with Tao' or somesuch. I mean it can be said Yi brings you to alignment with Tao but I don't think being already there, demonstrably so, is a prerequisite. If one were already there one would hardly be asking would one.

Also remember no one holds data on how emotions impact readings, no one has gone around measuring or recording how well Yi works when one is upset as compared to playful. Interestingly I don't think there are any playful psalms exactly. Possibly because the psalmist is generally in some life/death situation and would be interested in a playful chat with God.

So there can be obviously no empirical date on how state of mind impacts on readings, whether that be the actual response or one's interpretation of it. Therefore we can only hold opinions.

Personally I have found deep trouble can bring the sharpest clearest answers. There is no mood Yi cannot talk to you through. I do think one can stumble in interpretation through anxieties and fears and so on though. In that case it is a good idea to take a break rather than keep asking.



Well that's a matter of opinion whether you believe any divination is co-created. I don't personally think that is the case. I don't think if I approach Yi with frustration I get frustration back, it's not a mirror it's a consciousness. What that consciousness is again a matter of opinion but mv view is no of course displaying 'inferior qualities' doesn't close down flow with Yi any more than David's raving closed down his communion with God.

Now many think Yi is a manifestation of the Divine. I cannot say only that it appears to reply in ways that are kind and wise and true. But as a manifestation of the Divine, bought to us by the ancient chinese people and Wilhelm and many others, then as in prayer we really need not bring anything other than exactly who we are at that moment. We do not control how the Oracle replies by our self presentation to it. Self presentation is one thing we do not have to consider...'hmm I'm really mad right now but I better look (to myself) super calm and enlightened and aligned and then it might work better'...No, don't do that. Do what the psalmists did and keep on talking through all your mud and pain and reckless frustration, anger and joy and know you are not talking to yourself, what point would there be in that. No you are talking as if you would talk to God, as if you were talking to a good friend, as if you are talking to someone who can hear you and who accepts you in your current state right now and who will reply to you from a place of wisdom that is beyond you. True you won't always be able to reach the cup (27) you might not be able to hear but that won't be because you were displaying 'inferior qualities'.

Yes, I would say, if emotions are true and come from the heart. The Psalmist said, “why art thou cast down within me, oh my soul, hope thou in God.” I believe these were David’s words, but not sure, if they are it shows that even a man after the heart of God… But that is the key, after the heart of God.

The Tanach, Old Testament, was written in Hebrew and is a very different language, with codes and keys unimaginable to modern man. The same is true to a certain extent of the language the I Ching was written in. As westerners we only get part of the program. One of the curses placed on the northern ten tribes was that they would lose their language, and would be forced to read the Torah in a new language, and not understand it. To a certain extent the same has happened in Chinese.

 

[my_key]

Hi Trojina

First I'd like to say that there are things that you say that I can align with. However, some of what you say seems misdirected as you base your opinion in 'God' rather than 'Tao'. There are, of course, notable similarities: the Ultimate Source; ineffability; eternal presence and their guiding principle. While the important differences range from God, being worshipped; setting codes of goodness and morality (10 commandments); and displaying human qualities and characteristics and Tao, in contrast, being a cosmic force that is not worshipped but with which self alignment with its natural flow is sought. Equally, it exists beyond any conventional human concepts of good and bad.

So rather than conflate the two, God and Tao, I'm going to remain aligned with my original post which came from a Taoist related perspective. Mixing concepts of Tao and God can at times be misleading when speaking of things Chinese.

The Tao acts as a spontaneous and dynamic process from which all things emerge and in that sense it does not 'create' which is why I see divination as a co-creation. Man's role as the go-between of Heaven and Earth is to live in perfect harmony with the Tao and with his own nature. So, I agree, there is nothing 'wrong' with approaching a divination in any manner desired to ask any type of question that you like as that is living in harmony with your own nature at that point in time.

I have had many moments in life where through living in harmony with my nature of the time opportunities for change or a different vibration / resonance of harmony have slipped through my fingers. I can think of a time when I was so incensed and enraged that I missed seeing / ignored spitefully olive branches that were offered and stubbornly isolated myself. This nature and the subsequent life experiences were of my creation and took me down a path of powerful learning over the next 20 years. However Tao had no opinion on this. Similarly, at a time when I was filled by loss and sadness my nature again found harmonious relationship with grief and depression.

Any wisdom that may have been offered by Yi at each of these times just fell on stony ground. Unseen, unheard; effortlessly accomplished in total harmony with my then nature. Your example of David talking and then shouting or wailing at God, at different times, demonstrates perfectly him being in harmony with his nature:'raw and passionate stuff', in deed.

Having experienced this 'harmony with my own nature' in non-divination life situations I can only conclude that there is a strong likelihood that 'my own nature' that I bring to the divination (agitated, peaceful, raw, passionate etc.) will hold similar sway in the divination process. It is a key factor - neither good nor bad; a contribution to the field of the divination. As I see it, as well as tossing the coins, picking the marbles, reading the texts, and joining the dots of interpretation my very own nature is unavoidably a contributing part that I, and I alone, bring to any of my divination creations.

In Taoism, especially related to energy cultivation practices like Qigong and Tai Chi, there is a strong belief that intention or mind (Yi) directs the flow of vital energy (Qi). The phrase "energy follows thought" can I believe be interpreted as being a key Taoist tenet when engaging with Tao in divination practices.

 

[gene27]

Hi Trojina

First I'd like to say that there are things that you say that I can align with. However, some of what you say seems misdirected as you base your opinion in 'God' rather than 'Tao'. There are, of course, notable similarities: the Ultimate Source; ineffability; eternal presence and their guiding principle. While the important differences range from God, being worshipped; setting codes of goodness and morality (10 commandments); and displaying human qualities and characteristics and Tao, in contrast, being a cosmic force that is not worshipped but with which self alignment with its natural flow is sought. Equally, it exists beyond any conventional human concepts of good and bad.

So rather than conflate the two, God and Tao, I'm going to remain aligned with my original post which came from a Taoist related perspective. Mixing concepts of Tao and God can at times be misleading when speaking of things Chinese.

The Tao acts as a spontaneous and dynamic process from which all things emerge and in that sense it does not 'create' which is why I see divination as a co-creation. Man's role as the go-between of Heaven and Earth is to live in perfect harmony with the Tao and with his own nature. So, I agree, there is nothing 'wrong' with approaching a divination in any manner desired to ask any type of question that you like as that is living in harmony with your own nature at that point in time.

I have had many moments in life where through living in harmony with my nature of the time opportunities for change or a different vibration / resonance of harmony have slipped through my fingers. I can think of a time when I was so incensed and enraged that I missed seeing / ignored spitefully olive branches that were offered and stubbornly isolated myself. This nature and the subsequent life experiences were of my creation and took me down a path of powerful learning over the next 20 years. However Tao had no opinion on this. Similarly, at a time when I was filled by loss and sadness my nature again found harmonious relationship with grief and depression.

Any wisdom that may have been offered by Yi at each of these times just fell on stony ground. Unseen, unheard; effortlessly accomplished in total harmony with my then nature. Your example of David talking and then shouting or wailing at God, at different times, demonstrates perfectly him being in harmony with his nature:'raw and passionate stuff', in deed.

Having experienced this 'harmony with my own nature' in non-divination life situations I can only conclude that there is a strong likelihood that 'my own nature' that I bring to the divination (agitated, peaceful, raw, passionate etc.) will hold similar sway in the divination process. It is a key factor - neither good nor bad; a contribution to the field of the divination. As I see it, as well as tossing the coins, picking the marbles, reading the texts, and joining the dots of interpretation my very own nature is unavoidably a contributing part that I, and I alone, bring to any of my divination creations.

In Taoism, especially related to energy cultivation practices like Qigong and Tai Chi, there is a strong belief that intention or mind (Yi) directs the flow of vital energy (Qi). The phrase "energy follows thought" can I believe be interpreted as being a key Taoist tenet when engaging with Tao in divination practices.

Not to agree or disagree with either one of you or anybody, it must be recognized that the western view of the Torah and Tanach are based on teachings devised by the Roman Catholic Church, and, I don’t mean to be disparaging to any group, but their teachings, as is much of Christianity is based on a literal interpretation and superficial understanding of Hebrew. In essence, the Torah is much more like Tao than most people suspect, and so are the teachings of Jesus. In order not to get myself embroiled in controversy, I will say no more about that here.

 

[gene27]

There was a comment made in one of the other threads about the nature of our approach to Yi. I've been thinking on this and would be interested to hear others' perspectives.

Using it as a fortune telling machine or as a problem fixing device does fall within the remit of what Yi can offer. However, in these circumstances we more than likely approach the divination process cloaked in stress, fear, grasping, or some similar form of agitation. This agitation can easily be mirrored in the cast or in the way we unfold the message being relayed.

When approached playfully, peacefully, with curiosity and with due respect the oracle becomes a mirror of these qualities; a living spontaneous reflection of our embodied pattern in that moment that mirrors how we are manifesting Tao.

Any divination and the ensuing responses from the Oracle are co-created. When we approach Yi with inferior qualities on display then the flow will be embroiled in the web of those inferior qualities. When we approach Yi manifesting the qualities of the noble one, our inner power and virtue (De), we will be opening a different doorway for Yi to step through with regards to the nature of its response.

I agree. I am afraid too many people think of the I Ching as some kind of automatic machine that spews out correct answers based on some kind of unthinking synchronism.

Scientists continually argue over the meaning of quantum physics, and physicists who say consciousness creates reality are often kicked out of the club. This is real, it is not some conspiracy theory. The argue many scientists make is that the atoms in the brain create consciousness. What a load of crap. Matter cannot even exist without consciousness. The Tao is conscious and it is real, and it only responds well to pure and loving motives. The atoms in our brain, if such be even real, depend on the nature of our moral behavior, and how we perceive things depend on our consciousness.

I like your posts. I think they are very thoughtful

 

[my_key]

Hi gene27
You engage with some topics of deep enquiry in your posts and in the theme of this thread it is good to see you are in harmony with your own nature. The Torah and the Hebrew language, as you say, carry the symbolism of deep messaging akin to those in the classic Chinese texts. One of the key messages it offers is the sacred nature of all mundane daily tasks: a mode of thinking which could easily be joined thematically with 'Reverential use of the Oracle'.

When you say "I am afraid too many people think of the I Ching as some kind of automatic machine that spews out correct answers based on some kind of unthinking synchronism", it is important that you voice your fears. However, at the same time it is important to understand that other people may not share your fears, as a part of their nature. and are perfectly entitled to approach the I Ching as an automatic machine without any sense of fear.
Remember, Tao makes no judgement on 'unthinking synchronism' and as with all things this kind of herd or instinctual approach spontaneously emerges when the dynamics of the process see fit for it to.

 

[Anastacia]

The idea of consulting and co-creating, has me thinking...

I was talking with a friend who is on a path of learning Mediumship. One thing that was part of a recent training was the point of view that the client who consults you is always wrong when they disagree with you or don't understand and are dismissive about what you are receiving for them.

My understanding of this is that what the medium receives for them is like an answer from the Oracle. It holds deep and sometimes unfathomable truths. The space for co-creation here has a limited flexibility for the client - the Oracle holds firm as what it is, and reverence for it, is the approach that will allow the deepest truths to unfold.

On the other hand, I am doing a training at the moment, (not mediumship, but one in which you stay open to synchronicities and movements of the greater forces) that assumes that the client who consults you is always right, even when, from your more experienced viewpoint, you can see they are 'wrong'. Instead of correcting, confronting, you hold space for the fullness of who they are and what they experience and allow their own timing to unfold.
In this space of co-creation, the client has unlimited flexibility in the discovery of their own path and reverence for the client allows the space for the deepest truths to unfold from their own centre.

I think my takeaway from this is that the reverence may go both ways...

Well... unless you are having some Hex 4 moments...

 

[gene27]

Hi gene27
You engage with some topics of deep enquiry in your posts and in the theme of this thread it is good to see you are in harmony with your own nature. The Torah and the Hebrew language, as you say, carry the symbolism of deep messaging akin to those in the classic Chinese texts. One of the key messages it offers is the sacred nature of all mundane daily tasks: a mode of thinking which could easily be joined thematically with 'Reverential use of the Oracle'.

When you say "I am afraid too many people think of the I Ching as some kind of automatic machine that spews out correct answers based on some kind of unthinking synchronism", it is important that you voice your fears. However, at the same time it is important to understand that other people may not share your fears, as a part of their nature. and are perfectly entitled to approach the I Ching as an automatic machine without any sense of fear.
Remember, Tao makes no judgement on 'unthinking synchronism' and as with all things this kind of herd or instinctual approach spontaneously emerges when the dynamics of the process see fit for it to.

Hi, my_key

I understand what you are saying, my point was only that the Tao oe the I Ching is not an automatic unthinking response, but it is part of a universal whole that is conscious awareness per se. In short, the universe is alive, aware, and that consciousness is the creator of all that exists. It is a very high intelligence that knows the proper response to everything and is not in itself automatic. It holds the cards, so to speak, and can give us the answer it gives us based on our own level of awareness and understanding. It is not that the asker is unthinking, it is that the universe itself is aware.

 

[my_key]

A few alternative / modified perspectives that you might like to consider.

The paradox of what you say is that what emerges spontaneously from Tao when consulting the I Ching could very well be 'an automatic unthinking response'. How could this not be an option?

A question for you. How do you differentiate between automatic and spontaneous in your world? Is 'unthinking' an automatic act or is it a spontaneous act? One option carries judgement, the other doesn't.

Tao is a pure Universal Consciousness from which all phenomena (myriad beings) arise. Remember, Tao creates nothing; it is an essence beyond words or constructs. As well as proper responses it has a universal level of awareness of all the improper responses too - although there is no differentiation by Tao between proper and improper. Who decides, I wonder, what is a proper response and what it looks like?

Another question for you. How do you differentiate between automatic and spontaneous? Is 'unthinking' an automatic act or is it a spontaneous act? Maybe it can be both.

An important aspect, to my mind, is to recognise that Tao doesn't 'give us the answer'. It rather shows us the pattern we are experiencing and links to symbolic images, including words, for the human part of the divination machine to decode. In that respect, perhaps it is correct to say that, we give ourselves an answer.

All divination does is allows us to experience a new realisation (or not). One that emerges out of the essence of Universal Awareness and grows into our human awareness, in heavily filtered, or otherwise forms: on a sliding scale of unaware to aware. Even the most aware of humans can have glaring blind-spots. Human awareness stems from our experiences and whenever our experiences are based in nobility then we have little option other than to become more Tao-like. We also have to compulsorily experience varying amounts of diverse unawareness - both in depth and length- to be able to stand on the entry level platform.

Approaching awareness through divination provides a perfect vehicle for growing those compulsory learning experiences.

 

[my_key]

My understanding of this is that what the medium receives for them is like an answer from the Oracle. It holds deep and sometimes unfathomable truths. The space for co-creation here has a limited flexibility for the client - the Oracle holds firm as what it is, and reverence for it, is the approach that will allow the deepest truths to unfold.

With mediumship, as with doing readings for other people, there is an opportunity for doubling a disrespectful approach: both the medium and the client may not be able to get out of the way enough to allow a pure message to go through, what is effectively little more than, a Chinese Whisper process.

On the other hand, I am doing a training at the moment, (not mediumship, but one in which you stay open to synchronicities and movements of the greater forces) that assumes that the client who consults you is always right, even when, from your more experienced viewpoint, you can see they are 'wrong'. Instead of correcting, confronting, you hold space for the fullness of who they are and what they experience and allow their own timing to unfold.

I agree. Learning how to put your ego to one side and to focus solely on the space occupied by that still small voice within is a key skill to develop for both divination and mediumship.

In this space of co-creation, the client has unlimited flexibility in the discovery of their own path and reverence for the client allows the space for the deepest truths to unfold from their own centre.

In your training the co creation comes through the interaction of 3 arms - Tao, you and client. When you step back through reverence then there is direct communion. Doesn't it say somewhere in the I Ching that two's company but 3's a crowd?

I think my takeaway from this is that the reverence may go both ways...

Well... unless you are having some Hex 4 moments...

Tao always approaches us with reverence, in divination practice there is a choice to be had.

 

[gene27]

A few alternative / modified perspectives that you might like to consider.

The paradox of what you say is that what emerges spontaneously from Tao when consulting the I Ching could very well be 'an automatic unthinking response'. How could this not be an option?

A question for you. How do you differentiate between automatic and spontaneous in your world? Is 'unthinking' an automatic act or is it a spontaneous act? One option carries judgement, the other doesn't.

Tao is a pure Universal Consciousness from which all phenomena (myriad beings) arise. Remember, Tao creates nothing; it is an essence beyond words or constructs. As well as proper responses it has a universal level of awareness of all the improper responses too - although there is no differentiation by Tao between proper and improper. Who decides, I wonder, what is a proper response and what it looks like?

Another question for you. How do you differentiate between automatic and spontaneous? Is 'unthinking' an automatic act or is it a spontaneous act? Maybe it can be both.

An important aspect, to my mind, is to recognise that Tao doesn't 'give us the answer'. It rather shows us the pattern we are experiencing and links to symbolic images, including words, for the human part of the divination machine to decode. In that respect, perhaps it is correct to say that, we give ourselves an answer.

All divination does is allows us to experience a new realisation (or not). One that emerges out of the essence of Universal Awareness and grows into our human awareness, in heavily filtered, or otherwise forms: on a sliding scale of unaware to aware. Even the most aware of humans can have glaring blind-spots. Human awareness stems from our experiences and whenever our experiences are based in nobility then we have little option other than to become more Tao-like. We also have to compulsorily experience varying amounts of diverse unawareness - both in depth and length- to be able to stand on the entry level platform.

Approaching awareness through divination provides a perfect vehicle for growing those compulsory learning experiences.

Hi, my_key

I think we are talking apples and oranges here so I will just leave it at that.

I will say this. When our most advanced telescopes look out at the galaxies, they send back pictures that look exactly like the synapses in the brain. The point being, the universe is entirely consciousness, and outside that conscious nothing exists. All else is illusion.

I appreciate your comments. There is a lot of deep thought in them.

 

[my_key]

I'm not sure we are completely at odds but I'm happy to park this conversation rather than expand it further.

 

[gene27]

I'm not sure we are completely at odds but I'm happy to park this conversation rather than expand it further.

I’m not sure I want to see the conversation parked, I just might limit, not eliminate, my own contributions for now. The conversation is a wonderful thing full of insights. It is not my intention to end it for everyone. Hope you will keep posting on this topic

 

[my_key]

Like you I will contribute more when my exploration muse takes centre stage. Let's hope other people's exploration muse also steps up, otherwise this thread will just wither on the vine.

 

[gene27]

Like you I will contribute more when my exploration muse takes centre stage. Let's hope other people's exploration muse also steps up, otherwise this thread will just wither on the vine.

Yes, I hope the thread can continue

 

[gene27]

But as a manifestation of the Divine, bought to us by the ancient chinese people and Wilhelm and many others, then as in prayer we really need not bring anything other than exactly who we are at that moment. We do not control how the Oracle replies by our self presentation to it. Self presentation is one thing we do not have to consider...'hmm I'm really mad right now but I better look (to myself) super calm and enlightened and aligned and then it might work better'...No, don't do that. Do what the psalmists did and keep on talking through all your mud and pain and reckless frustration, anger and joy and know you are not talking to yourself, what point would there be in that. No you are talking as if you would talk to God, as if you were talking to a good friend, as if you are talking to someone who can hear you and who accepts you in your current state right now and who will reply to you from a place of wisdom that is beyond you. True you won't always be able to reach the cup (27) you might not be able to hear but that won't be because you were displaying 'inferior qualities'.

Some of these things require a real understanding, I think, of what the other person is really saying.

I would submit there is some truth in what each person is saying. I would submit that the I Ching is not an automatic response. It does take into account the nature and feeling of the person asking, but that doesn’t mean it is going to give a false or even weaker answer if someone is mad. It reflects that anger but does not chastise us for it. Our own emotions do have an effect in what our future will be. But sometimes the I Ching does throw our emotions back at us so that we can be aware of ourselves. Are emotions in and of themselves bad? Of course not, we need them. But sometimes emotions are based on a lack of understanding of the true situation. And sometimes negative emotions can affect us in very negative ways.

I would further submit that the I Ching is limited in its responses in that it can only give us what we can understand. But humans by nature are very, very immature, and that applies to any age. In most sacred books there is the technique of telling stories that can have meaning on a literal level, and a lot of people get a good understanding of the meaning as it applies to them, but there is often the allegorical level, the metaphysical, and deeper. The Torah is a good example of that as Hebrew words have multiple meanings. Names as well, have meaning. For example Moses means drawn out, Jacob means the supplanter , Aaron has connotations of a serpent, and light. It is a play on the word aura, in Hebrew or, or aur, and has all kinds of indications. We get something out of it but most of it goes right over our head. We have no idea what we are reading.

These are deep subjects which require a lot of both studying and meditating on. The I Ching can be very metaphorical, it is not a quick study